I was in a shop recently and they had a pair of LS50s on fairly low stands (didn't notice the make) which angled the speakers upwards quite markedly. Has anyone experimented or had any experience with such a set-up, not necessarily with the LS50s?
Anyone tilt their speakers?
- Thread starter calpark46
- Start date
Yes, I do....
I have a pair of 782se Missions - I have the front spikes on a pair of jenga blocks so they tilt back to me they sound better, less bassy projects voices higher.
could be plasibo, but they have been like this for years after experimenting when I first got them
I have a pair of 782se Missions - I have the front spikes on a pair of jenga blocks so they tilt back to me they sound better, less bassy projects voices higher.
could be plasibo, but they have been like this for years after experimenting when I first got them
matt49
Well-known member
Some standmount speakers are designed to be tilted up, that's to say the stands they come with give them a few degrees of elevation. These for instance (sorry, I couldn't resist):
:cheers:
Matt
:cheers:
Matt
chebby
Well-known member
Petherick
Well-known member
It also stops people from putting their tea / beer / teddy bear / candles on them! Except for the PMCs above :exmark:
Chebby, thanks for the pictures.
When I was asking the original question, I remembered that some speakers were designed this way. Clearly, PMC, Neat & others have done more than experiment with this!!
When I was asking the original question, I remembered that some speakers were designed this way. Clearly, PMC, Neat & others have done more than experiment with this!!
chebby
Well-known member
It's not a very new idea. I can remember examples going back 25 (or more) years...
Naim.
Meridian.
Naim.
Meridian.
matthewpiano
Well-known member
I think it has more to do with time alignment than necessarily aiming the tweeter at the right height.
matt49
Well-known member
matthewpiano said:
I am sure you are right. I wonder then if tilting speakers, not designed so, would create timing issues? A few degrees? Guess I need cushions to get my ears higher or else get back on the stretcher?
Sound travels at roughly 300m/sec. So if the front of the tweeter were say 3 cms back from the front of the bass speaker, then, given an instantaneous pulse, the hearer would receive the sound 1/10,000th second later.
Of course, this assumes that the sound is transmitted instantaneously. In reality the electric current kick to the speaker will have to accelerate a bigger mass of cone and air in the bass case, rather than the amount for the tweeter - so the bass sound will actually be transmitted later.
Whether the differences in the first case above are audible I doubt; those in the latter case are what makes some of the differences between speakers!
I suspect this could turn into one of those "cable debates"!
Of course, this assumes that the sound is transmitted instantaneously. In reality the electric current kick to the speaker will have to accelerate a bigger mass of cone and air in the bass case, rather than the amount for the tweeter - so the bass sound will actually be transmitted later.
Whether the differences in the first case above are audible I doubt; those in the latter case are what makes some of the differences between speakers!
I suspect this could turn into one of those "cable debates"!
interesting daveperc - thanks.
Although, like you say, i think the timings are waaaaaay too small for the human brain to care.
Although, like you say, i think the timings are waaaaaay too small for the human brain to care.
Maybe phase/crossover delay etc adds to timing too. We need speaker design specialists responses on a postcard please. Voice coils in the same plane would seem to be right but as u say, different drivers react differently
think timing is the wrong word to use personally. The timing of the music doesn not change, it's more that there may be a infintiely miniscule delay, as davep pointed out.
Timing is 4/4 6/8 etc, and that will not change.
Timing is 4/4 6/8 etc, and that will not change.
cheeseboy said:
I agree that timing is probably a loose term - but it isn't 4/4 etc - that the Time Signature. The tempo of the music is measured in beats per minute (BPM) and a piece of music can be in any time signature, for a given BPM etc.
Timing is usually used to refer to how accurately the musicians or singer follows the Tempo - for example many singers will be slightly off the beat deliberately to emphasise a mood. Some bands have a very loose sound, others like for example Dire Straits, were recognised for their "tight" sound - ie everyone exactly on the beat.
The delays from each element may be miniscule - but they are what gives the music its different character
Dave
Daveperc said:
Funny you should say that, not long after I posted i realised what I meant and what I said were two different things
But i wholeheartidly agree with the terminology you are using (and thank you for eloquently managing to phrase what is in my head) I still think imho that timing is the wrong term to be using in the hifi context though, as if moving a speaker, or changing a cable will magically change any of what you describe above.SpursGator
Well-known member
Timing in this case is important since perfect timing will mean that the two drivers are in phase. Phase is really the issue.
A common way to deal with the acoustic centres of a woofer and tweeter (one being behind the other) is to use an asymetrical crossover (2nd order to the woofer, third order to the tweeter). But it sounds better, in theory, if there is a second order filter to both. So some designers use stepped baffles to line up the drivers. Others (PMC et al) tilt the speakers.
A very good explanation with diagrams: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker_time_alignment
Note that it depends on the crossover - speakers designed to be tilted MUST be, and those designed not to be tilted shouldn't be (as long as the rest of the setup is as the speaker designer anticipated).
A common way to deal with the acoustic centres of a woofer and tweeter (one being behind the other) is to use an asymetrical crossover (2nd order to the woofer, third order to the tweeter). But it sounds better, in theory, if there is a second order filter to both. So some designers use stepped baffles to line up the drivers. Others (PMC et al) tilt the speakers.
A very good explanation with diagrams: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker_time_alignment
Note that it depends on the crossover - speakers designed to be tilted MUST be, and those designed not to be tilted shouldn't be (as long as the rest of the setup is as the speaker designer anticipated).
I love it when discussion becomes semantics. My reference to timing in its loosest sense was that a signal is split into 2, 3 or more components of different frequencies by the crossover and they should reach the ear at the same time. Obviously there are complex interactions between the signal, drive units & ear dependant on crossover design, drive unit design, positioning of drive units, speakers, boundries & environment involving absorbsion, reflection & phase/wave combination.
Whats the question ????
Spurs - you beat me too it. I was going to say that. But didnt. :cheers:
My reference to timing in its loosest sense was that a signal is split into 2, 3 or more components of different frequencies by the crossover and they should reach the ear at the same time. Obviously there are complex interactions between the signal, drive units & ear dependant on crossover design, drive unit design, positioning of drive units, speakers, boundries & environment involving absorbsion, reflection & phase/wave combination.Whats the question ????
Spurs - you beat me too it. I was going to say that. But didnt. :cheers:
yep, semantics, but then that's bound to happen when you spend most of your life referring to one thing as Flibble for example, and then a whole group of other people use the term Flibble for something else
Still, I used to work somewhere that the people for some reason starting calling projectors DP's... so they'd come along and ask me for a DP.... (cue teenage boy titter mode)
Still, I used to work somewhere that the people for some reason starting calling projectors DP's... so they'd come along and ask me for a DP.... (cue teenage boy titter mode)
One issue not raised so far is that of vertical dispersion.
If we look at a conventional two way speaker side on, and think where the voice coils will be, then, if the tweeters are at the top, a straight line connecting them will not be vertical but slanted forward at the top.
At the crossover point, with both drivers operating at the same level, the axis of propagation will be at right angles to line connecting their voice coils, ie it will be in a downwards direction.
Given that reflections from the floor can be a big issue in some setups this starts to get interesting. Furthermore, vertical dispersion off axis will be a series of peaks and nulls, (lobes) caused by the horizontal distance between the two drive units.
So the old adage of placing the tweeters at ear height is entirely hit and miss, unless the speakers have been deliberately designed to sound best this way.
It also helps to explain why systems sound so different when the listener sits down or stands up.
If we look at a conventional two way speaker side on, and think where the voice coils will be, then, if the tweeters are at the top, a straight line connecting them will not be vertical but slanted forward at the top.
At the crossover point, with both drivers operating at the same level, the axis of propagation will be at right angles to line connecting their voice coils, ie it will be in a downwards direction.
Given that reflections from the floor can be a big issue in some setups this starts to get interesting. Furthermore, vertical dispersion off axis will be a series of peaks and nulls, (lobes) caused by the horizontal distance between the two drive units.
So the old adage of placing the tweeters at ear height is entirely hit and miss, unless the speakers have been deliberately designed to sound best this way.
It also helps to explain why systems sound so different when the listener sits down or stands up.
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