Any chance of a review of current Musical Fidelity products?

[Anonymous]

chebby:
igglebert:Their message about power requirements is quite right if measured tests are anything to go by. But then engineering doesn't matter in hifi does it.

Which measured tests gave rise to your conclusion?

I quote the conclusions of more than one manufacturer. AVI have done measured tests of power requirements, apparently at a show in public too. Musical Fidelity have also made reference to such tests too. I have no documentary evidence myself.

 

[Anonymous]

chebby:
Seems to be an awful lot of guessing going on.

I would find it interesting to see those people supposedly 'in the know' about Musical Fidelity's motives (for not submitting review samples) provide something more substantial.

So, is anyone here an MF dealer or employee? Or an employee for a magazine that does review MF?

If not, then how do you know all this?

Chebby, it's business. If any company sees no value or cannot make a business case for submitting a product for review in a certain magazine, be it HiFi or whatever, it won't.

Also, if it's meeting its sales targets, why would it bother?

 

[Andrew Everard]

Grottyash:No, pretty much spot on. Marantz top amplifiers? Krell? McIntosh - the list goes on

Again, thank you for your insider knowledge, but I fear you may be confusing what manufacturers/distributors choose to submit for review with what we choose to request for review.

 

[manicm]

No big deal really, the others have recent MF reviews.

 

[Andrew Everard]

igglebert:I quote the conclusions of more than one manufacturer. AVI have done measured tests of power requirements, apparently at a show in public too.

Quick, someone start a thread on railway modelling - let's see igglebert crowbar a reference to AVI into that...

 

[chebby]

igglebert:chebby:igglebert:Their message about power requirements is quite right if measured tests are anything to go by. But then engineering doesn't matter in hifi does it.
Which measured tests gave rise to your conclusion?

I quote the conclusions of more than one manufacturer. AVI have done measured tests of power requirements, apparently at a show in public too. Musical Fidelity have also made reference to such tests too. I have no documentary evidence myself.

So which hifi companies don't (to your knowledge rather than hearsay) use measured tests in the development of their products?

I would be shocked if MF and AVI were the only companies who painstakingly measure and test in the course of product development.

 

[Anonymous]

Andrew Everard:
Grottyash:No, pretty much spot on. Marantz top amplifiers? Krell? McIntosh - the list goes on

Again, thank you for your insider knowledge, but I fear you may be confusing what manufacturers/distributors choose to submit for review with what we choose to request for review.

No need to thank me, it's simply business. To an extent, given I am in business, albeit one far removed from HiFi, you are right in crediting me with insider knowledge!

Mind you, the business will no longer exist shortly the way things are going.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Grottyash:To an extent, given I am in business, albeit one far removed from HiFi, you are right in crediting me with insider knowledge!

IME knowledge of how any other business operates is unlikely to give you much insight into the workings of the hi-fi industry

 

[Anonymous]

Business principles still apply though?

Apropos of nothing I remember reading a case study which featured a French or German HiFi company (can't remember which) that was held up as an example to us aspiring managers of how to re-invent a failing company, principally by moving manufacturing off shore, clearly defining target markets, creative marketing strategies etc.

Shame the company folded not long after the text books had been written.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Grottyash:Business principles still apply though?

You'd hope, wouldn't you?

 

[Anonymous]

Andrew Everard:
igglebert:I quote the conclusions of more than one manufacturer. AVI have done measured tests of power requirements, apparently at a show in public too.

Quick, someone start a thread on railway modelling - let's see igglebert crowbar a reference to AVI into that...

Now you've given me the excuse to put it anywhere

Chebby, if I run through lists of manufacturers in my head I actually can't recall many examples of where it is claimed that measurements have been used to engineer a superior product. I'm at three right now. I won't mention them in case I'm accused of name-dropping.

Please don't sit and list a hundred for the next hour, I'm sure you'll prove me wrong. It's just an opinion, but I can't prove that either.

 

[chebby]

igglebert:Chebby, if I run through lists of manufacturers in my head I actually can't recall many examples of where it is claimed that measurements have been used to engineer a superior product. I'm at three right now. I won't mention them in case I'm accused of name-dropping.

Please don't sit and list a hundred for the next hour, I'm sure you'll prove me wrong. It's just an opinion, but I can't prove that either.

I don't know for certain (in the sense of having been present) that companies do or don't use measurements and testing (and good engineering practice) in the development of new products.

All I know is that I expect them to. That not doing so would be commercial suicide - that not doing so might actually be breaking a few laws especially with regard to electrical safety - that not doing so would end with virtually all components, by all manufacturers, not being compatible with each other - that not doing so would make research & development meaningless and more time consuming - that not doing so would mean 're-inventing the wheel' every time a new product is developed... and so on.

It is patently ridiculous to assert (whoever is doing the asserting and however impressed by them you are) that any responsible company is going to make new products without research, measurement, testing and application of engineering principles. Doing it by hunch or guesswork would result in products that are not fit for purpose or even electrically unsafe and would result in batch inconsistency on a staggering scale even if they were allowed out the factory gate!

Companies don't have to make claims about everything they have to do, for us to know they have to do it.

Just because one company says... "we test and measure and apply engineering" doesn't mean all the others don't.

 

[Anonymous]

Indeed you're right, Chebby.

I refer to any research and engineering in relation to amplifier power requirements, as per the original context. From the explanations that I've seen (and not fully understood nor remembered, not being an engineer), the maths involved in determining amp power requirements are fairly straight forward. When dealing with an active it gets easier due to the obvious integration between speaker and amp. I may sound like an AVI'ite but I respect their approach and accept what they say without seeing complete evidence. More fool me, perhaps. Perhaps not.

I remember reading the Musical Fidelity Web document about power requirements, and they went through some simple calculations on there too. I'm not making this up but can't reference anything here. Not remembering whether I read between the lines or not, a reason why they produce low and high powered amps is market preference. As I've said before, it would seem therefore that many either use extremely sensitive speakers with amps like the MF A1 or they enjoy the clipping that ensues with low sensitivity speakers. From what I've seen of such users, it's the latter.

My argument is that conditions of deliberately underpowering speakers don't really align with the pursuit of engineered high fidelity, recreating the source as accurately as possible. Rather it aligns with colouring sound to people's tastes. A strategy that on the surface seems to be successful, but may also give rise to dissatisfaction and constant upgrading.

 

[El Hefe]

This might be off topic, but please visit the MF website. Their warehouse was broken into and several items were stolen and now being sold on ebay.

 

[chebby]

El Hefe:This might be off topic, but please the MF website. Their warehouse was broken into and several items were stolen and now being sold on ebay.

Just shows that Gramophone will go to any lengths to get their review samples!

 

[daveh75]

chebby:
El Hefe:This might be off topic, but please the MF website. Their warehouse was broken into and several items were stolen and now being sold on ebay.

Just shows that Gramophone will go to any lengths to get their review samples!

I thought MF stored their kit in the back of cars with the seats down so passers-by could take photographs and post them on hi-fi websites

 

[Singslinger]

On the subject of manufacturers offering their products for review, I thought it was interesting to read what another British hifi mag reported in a group test of Brit integrated amps in its Feb issue.

The test featured amps from Creek, Sugden, Arcam, Cyrus, Leema and Roksan but none from Naim or Linn because "Linn doesn't participate in group tests'' and Naim has refused so many comparative tests in the past that the mag has learned not to even ask. "Make of that what you will'' wrote the mag. Hmmmm.

 

[El Hefe]

daveh75:chebby:
El Hefe:This might be off topic, but please the MF website. Their warehouse was broken into and several items were stolen and now being sold on ebay.

Just shows that Gramophone will go to any lengths to get their review samples!

I thought MF stored their kit in the back of cars with the seats down so passers-by could take photographs and post them on hi-fi websites

Maybe that car was stolen too

 

[chebby]

Singslinger:"Linn doesn't participate in group tests'' and Naim has refused so many comparative tests in the past that the mag has learned not to even ask. "Make of that what you will'' wrote the mag. Hmmmm.

I 'make of that' a very poor standard of editorial quality in trying to lead the reader to make spurious assumptions based on nothing but the absence of a manufacturer's product.

If I were working for Linn or Naim - and making decisions about who to send review samples to - then magazines capable of making such comments in print would be struck off my 'list' until they published an apology.

 

[Helmut80]

Singslinger:
On the subject of manufacturers offering their products for review, I thought it was interesting to read what another British hifi mag reported in a group test of Brit integrated amps in its Feb issue.

The test featured amps from Creek, Sugden, Arcam, Cyrus, Leema and Roksan but none from Naim or Linn because "Linn doesn't participate in group tests'' and Naim has refused so many comparative tests in the past that the mag has learned not to even ask. "Make of that what you will'' wrote the mag. Hmmmm.

may I ask which mag?

 

[jerry klinger]

Well, an interesting series of replies to my original post - not quite all as expected! Several useful points raised though:

1. One poster noted MF's tendency to keep changing their product range. My understanding from an interview they did with Hifi+ is that this should be a thing of the past - they are intending to make this a stable range (or 3 parallel ranges - as per Linn).

2. I did actually contact a fairly local dealer and the guy told me that 2 of their 4 staff use this very combination at home. Now I know what you're going to say... but I've met this guy several times and he's ultra helpful and plausible, and judging by his in-depth knowledge of the pair it seems they're very interesting indeed. They should be getting another shop set in soon so I'll let you know the results.

3. I recognise that WHF would mainly be interested in the sub-£2k market with occasional peeks at the Temptations side, but there must still be quite a lot of interest in £4-5k amps - you have several reviewed on the site recently. You also review quite a few £4k speakers, and of course conventional wisdom (FWIW) states that the amp is even more important...

5. I've seen the other reviews to date - thanks for the heads-up.

 

[chebby]

I have spent a few minutes clicking on 'view details' for every M6, M3 and M1 series product on the Musical Fidelity website.

None (from the UK) found under their 'reviews' section either. (Just a Russian one for the Titan.)

Under each product's details there are links to relevant reviews. I have not found one review link for any by a UK magazine. (There are a few from South Africa, Norway and Italy.)

So, despite any reviews from UK publications, Musical Fidelity have not linked to any of them. (Not even a glowing 5 star review for the M6PRX & M6PRE from last November by another well-known UK hifi magazine.)

If they are not even going to show 5 star UK magazine reviews then I guess they are not really that bothered.

 

[Andrew Everard]

chebby:Just shows that Gramophone will go to any lengths to get their review samples!

Don't have to: just pick up the phone when AM calls, which is how I am currently working on the V-Link USB-to-S/PDIF converter for a forthcoming issue of Gramophone.

 

[Singslinger]

Helmut80:Singslinger:
On the subject of manufacturers offering their products for review, I thought it was interesting to read what another British hifi mag reported in a group test of Brit integrated amps in its Feb issue.

The test featured amps from Creek, Sugden, Arcam, Cyrus, Leema and Roksan but none from Naim or Linn because "Linn doesn't participate in group tests'' and Naim has refused so many comparative tests in the past that the mag has learned not to even ask. "Make of that what you will'' wrote the mag. Hmmmm.

may I ask which mag?

Yes, it was Hi-Fi Choice.

Chebby - I should add that the quote about Linn not participating in group tests came from a Linn spokesperson.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Which is strange, given that we had a Linn system in our one-make systems test back in the January issue, IIRC.