Amplifiers - PRaT

[drummerman]

Wouldn't say MF or Creek have an overly exciting sound. Neutral.

Densen and Naim have more gusto (fun sound) imo

 

[insider9]

Wouldn't say MF or Creek have an overly exciting sound. Neutral.

Densen and Naim have more gusto (fun sound) imo

Densen... Heard of it but never had a pleasure to listen to one. Fine looking amps too

 

[CnoEvil]

I prefer musicality to detail so generally speaker any amplification shouldn't be too bad. It's likely that when an amp is tuned to retrieve the smallest detail it may just dig up what engineers were trying to hide in the first place.

I have discovered that musicality and detail need not be mutually exclusive...but it often comes at a cost. I am staggered at the detail that my amp digs up, which I put down to its full Class A topology, with its removal of Crossover distortion. This review nicely explains it: http://i.nextmedia.com.au/avhub/australian-hifi_reviews_2011-03_Musical_Fidelity_AMS_35i_Amplifier_Review_musical_fidelity_ams35i_amplifier_review_lores.pdf

ive not read that but what you describe about class a without the crossover distortion is taken to the max with ATC actives as the active crossover totally eliminates the crossover distortion and the first 50w is class A

win win

The crossover distortion that I'm talking about, is nothing to do with crossovers....it's also known as Switching or Notch distortion, ie where the ouput transistors that are dealing with the the 2 halves of the sine wave switch on and off......whereas on Class A, both sets of transistors are permanently on...which causes the heat and the lower power. The article describes it well.

To get a genuine 50W of Class A, expect an amplifier to weigh around 60kg and (IIRC) 1 degree of heat for every Watt....and 600W from the mains.

 

[Andrewjvt]

I prefer musicality to detail so generally speaker any amplification shouldn't be too bad. It's likely that when an amp is tuned to retrieve the smallest detail it may just dig up what engineers were trying to hide in the first place.

I have discovered that musicality and detail need not be mutually exclusive...but it often comes at a cost. I am staggered at the detail that my amp digs up, which I put down to its full Class A topology, with its removal of Crossover distortion. This review nicely explains it: http://i.nextmedia.com.au/avhub/australian-hifi_reviews_2011-03_Musical_Fidelity_AMS_35i_Amplifier_Review_musical_fidelity_ams35i_amplifier_review_lores.pdf

 

ive not read that but what you describe about class a without the crossover distortion is taken to the max with ATC actives as the active crossover totally eliminates the crossover distortion and the first 50w is class A

win win 

The crossover distortion that I'm talking about, is nothing to do with crossovers....it's also known as Switching or Notch distortion, ie where the ouput transistors that are dealing with the the 2 halves of the sine wave switch on and off......whereas on Class A, both sets of transistors are permanently on...which causes the heat and the lower power. The article describes it well.

To get a genuine 50W of Class A, expect an amplifier to weigh around 60kg and (IIRC) 1 degree of heat for every Watt....and 600W from the mains.

Told you I never read it.
It's similar to Hegel's sound engine design.

Here the marketing
The unique and patented Hegel SoundEngine audio technology is combining the advantage of class AB-amplifier and the advantage of class A-amplifiers, without having the draw backs of class A and class AB-amplifier technologies. The SoundEngine Technology will cancel crossover distortion found in all types of class-AB amplifiers. The human ear is very sensitive to high frequency distortion components in the music signal. The Hegel SoundEngine technology will cancel high frequency distortion components found in normal types of audio amplifiers. The Hegel SoundEngine technology is not using any kind of global negative feedback, it is using local and adaptive feed forward technology if there should ever be any need for cancellation of distortion within the audio amplifier stages.

 

[CnoEvil]

Arcam claims the same with their Class G....Like a hybrid car engine, Class G implements multiple power supplies rather than just a single supply. If a dynamic signal is received that goes beyond the capability of this first power supply, the secondary supply is gradually brought in up to full rated power output as required. This gives a very efficient design as additional power is only used when required, much like a turbo-charger. Modern high speed silicon allows us the make this switch faster that would ever be required, even way beyond the audio bandwidth, so there is no “turbo lag”

http://www.arcam.co.uk/ugc/tor/p429/Class%20G%20Explained/Class_G_the_ultimate_amplifier_technology_150714_A.pdf

IME. It all helps - but nothing I've yet heard, sounds like a full Class A amp....though I haven't heard Hegel.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Arcam claims the same with their Class G....Like a hybrid car engine, Class G implements multiple power supplies rather than just a single supply. If a dynamic signal is received that goes beyond the capability of this first power supply, the secondary supply is gradually brought in up to full rated power output as required. This gives a very efficient design as additional power is only used when required, much like a turbo-charger. Modern high speed silicon allows us the make this switch faster that would ever be required, even way beyond the audio bandwidth, so there is no “turbo lag”

http://www.arcam.co.uk/ugc/tor/p429/Class%20G%20Explained/Class_G_the_ultimate_amplifier_technology_150714_A.pdf

IME. It all helps - but nothing I've yet heard, sounds like a full Class A amp....though I haven't heard Hegel.

I've tested loads of amps over the last year or 2 and so far my old Hegel was by far the cleanest. Reviews have likened it to a class a but I take reviews with a pinch of salt nowadays.

But as for sounding like class a I couldn't honestly give an opinion.

I did demo a sudden power amp a few months ago but we had to change it over to a main super initial as the ATC 40 were distorting like a b....
But I will say the top and miss were sweet at lower levels.

Funny enough the silly salesman also used the cost theory and could not explain how come this 6500 pound amp could not drive a 3500 pound set of speakers (qft13n pay attention)

 

[CnoEvil]

I've tested loads of amps over the last year or 2 and so far my old Hegel was by far the cleanest. Reviews have likened it to a class a but I take reviews with a pinch of salt nowadays.

But as for sounding like class a I couldn't honestly give an opinion.

I did demo a sudden power amp a few months ago but we had to change it over to a main super initial as the ATC 40 were distorting like a b.... But I will say the top and miss were sweet at lower levels.

Funny enough the silly salesman also used the cost theory and could not explain how come this 6500 pound amp could not drive a 3500 pound set of speakers (qft13n pay attention)

In the modern "Greener" world, Class A is a dinosaur and imo its days are numbered (like Plasma TVs)......and it really isn't a sensible proposition.....but like an old Morgan sports car, for some of us, nothing else quite hits the spot and is our guilty pleasure.

 

[Andrewjvt]

I've tested loads of amps over the last year or 2 and so far my old Hegel was by far the cleanest. Reviews have likened it to a class a but I take reviews with a pinch of salt nowadays.

But as for sounding like class a I couldn't honestly give an opinion.

I did demo a sudden power amp a few months ago but we had to change it over to a main super initial as the ATC 40 were distorting like a b.... But I will say the top and miss were sweet at lower levels.

Funny enough the silly salesman also used the cost theory and could not explain how come this 6500 pound amp could not drive a 3500 pound set of speakers (qft13n pay attention)

In the modern "Greener" world, Class A is a dinosaur and imo its days are numbered (like Plasma TVs)......and it really isn't a sensible proposition.....but like an old Morgan sports car, for some of us, nothing else quite hits the spot and is our guilty pleasure.

Keep some bees in your back yard and I forgive you

 

[CnoEvil]

Keep some bees in your back yard and I forgive you

Mrs. Cno has bees in her bonnet......does that count?

Our neighbour keeps bees...which kept flying down our chimney and then coming out sooty and angry.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Going back to Musicrafts list note that Auralic do not do an integrated amp.

Hi Al ears

Auralic’s relatively new Polaris *smile*

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

I wasn't aware of that one... I stand corrected. Looks interesting. All I could remember seeing was Merak power amps.... doh!

Hi Al ears

No worries *smile*

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Electro]

I prefer musicality to detail so generally speaker any amplification shouldn't be too bad. It's likely that when an amp is tuned to retrieve the smallest detail it may just dig up what engineers were trying to hide in the first place.

I have discovered that musicality and detail need not be mutually exclusive...but it often comes at a cost. I am staggered at the detail that my amp digs up, which I put down to its full Class A topology, with its removal of Crossover distortion. This review nicely explains it: http://i.nextmedia.com.au/avhub/australian-hifi_reviews_2011-03_Musical_Fidelity_AMS_35i_Amplifier_Review_musical_fidelity_ams35i_amplifier_review_lores.pdf

ive not read that but what you describe about class a without the crossover distortion is taken to the max with ATC actives as the active crossover totally eliminates the crossover distortion and the first 50w is class A

win win

The crossover distortion that I'm talking about, is nothing to do with crossovers....it's also known as Switching or Notch distortion, ie where the ouput transistors that are dealing with the the 2 halves of the sine wave switch on and off......whereas on Class A, both sets of transistors are permanently on...which causes the heat and the lower power. The article describes it well.

To get a genuine 50W of Class A, expect an amplifier to weigh around 60kg and (IIRC) 1 degree of heat for every Watt....and 600W from the mains.

Told you I never read it. It's similar to Hegel's sound engine design.

Here the marketing The unique and patented Hegel SoundEngine audio technology is combining the advantage of class AB-amplifier and the advantage of class A-amplifiers, without having the draw backs of class A and class AB-amplifier technologies. The SoundEngine Technology will cancel crossover distortion found in all types of class-AB amplifiers. The human ear is very sensitive to high frequency distortion components in the music signal. The Hegel SoundEngine technology will cancel high frequency distortion components found in normal types of audio amplifiers. The Hegel SoundEngine technology is not using any kind of global negative feedback, it is using local and adaptive feed forward technology if there should ever be any need for cancellation of distortion within the audio amplifier stages.

The Hegel Soundengine tech is remarkably similar to the Electrocompaniet system of local feedback with no overall negative feedback as is the Hegel Dual power to Electrocompaniets FFT ( FULLY FLOATING TRANSFORMER ) power supplies .

As for current draw from the mains my power amps draw 230 watts at idle and nearly 2KW at full power *shok* .

I also found Sugden amps to be very poor even with meduim loudspeaker loads, I home demoed a Sugden Masterclass pre amp and stereo power amp and the sound completely fell to pieces and distorted at anything above a meduim volume into my then QLN speakers.

The Electro EC4.7 and AW120 pre and stereo power I demoed at the same time ( and then bought ) completely outclassed the Sugdens in every possible way and drove the QLN's perfectly at all SPL's with no problem at all .

The Sugden pair were twice the price of the Electro's !

I thing Sugden amps have to be very carefully matched to the speakers to avoid dissapointment.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Coffee, tea or toilet
The adverts are relentless today

 

[mond]

All I can see on this subject is that when I finally upgraded my old 80s NAD amp and bought an AUDIOLAB 8000A I was blown away with the difference.
What I suddenly noticed is how "well" all the musicians played, and how in time all the instruments were - especially the drums. I was all of a sudden aware how good all the drummers were that I had hitherto assumed were average. Whether that was due to increased PRaT or whether it was just a better quality amp I'm not entirely sure.... but I have never forgotten that upgrade, I think that was the one that really got me going on this hifi journey .....

1507917824.75 sec.

 

[drummerman]

Coffee, tea or toilet
The adverts are relentless today

It doesn't seem to affect you adversely when PP is advertising his Leema on the other thread

 

[Al ears]

I've tested loads of amps over the last year or 2 and so far my old Hegel was by far the cleanest. Reviews have likened it to a class a but I take reviews with a pinch of salt nowadays.

But as for sounding like class a I couldn't honestly give an opinion.

I did demo a sudden power amp a few months ago but we had to change it over to a main super initial as the ATC 40 were distorting like a b.... But I will say the top and miss were sweet at lower levels.

Funny enough the silly salesman also used the cost theory and could not explain how come this 6500 pound amp could not drive a 3500 pound set of speakers (qft13n pay attention)

In the modern "Greener" world, Class A is a dinosaur and imo its days are numbered (like Plasma TVs)......and it really isn't a sensible proposition.....but like an old Morgan sports car, for some of us, nothing else quite hits the spot and is our guilty pleasure.

Somebody mention Morgan?..... damn, does the same apply to my valve amp then?

 

[CnoEvil]

Somebody mention Morgan?..... damn, does the same apply to my valve amp then?

No. That would be a Model T! *diablo*

 

[Al ears]

Coffee, tea or toilet The adverts are relentless today

It doesn't seem to affect you adversely when PP is advertising his Leema on the other thread

Nice one centurian.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

bought an AUDIOLAB 8000A

Hi mond

Good amp and it was the first product I sold *smile*

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Andrewjvt]

Coffee, tea or toilet
The adverts are relentless today

It doesn't seem to affect you adversely when PP is advertising his Leema on the other thread

Maybe because pp is not a blatent kiss ass

Come on I asked him he was not advertising and is not preying on anyone.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Dealers are aplenty although I'm aware I'd rather buy second hand so wouldn't want to waste their time.

Hi insider9

Admirable and fair play to you *smile*

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[davedotco]

When that amp was introduced I was caught up with all the hype and bought one to replace my Nad 3020.

What a mistake, it cost me a lot of effort and money to get the music back into my system, never been near an Audiolab since.

 

[nopiano]

When that amp was introduced I was caught up with all the hype and bought one to replace my Nad 3020.

What a mistake, it cost me a lot of effort and money to get the music back into my system, never been near an Audiolab since.

That made me laugh, as I hated them too!

Sold themselves thanks to reviews, but I thought them deadly dull.

 

[drummerman]

8000S (original).

Worst amplifier I've owned.

 

[davedotco]

When that amp was introduced I was caught up with all the hype and bought one to replace my Nad 3020.

What a mistake, it cost me a lot of effort and money to get the music back into my system, never been near an Audiolab since.

That made me laugh, as I hated them too!

Sold themselves thanks to reviews, but I thought them deadly dull.

Don't really want to condemn the brand as a lot of people really seem to like them and Derek and Phil were 'hi-fi mates' back in the day.

Adding the 8000a really destroyed my system, within a few weeks I had virtually stopped playing music, it was kind of an unconcious thing, I just found myself playing less and less music, my life was in crisis (really!).

This was really brought home to me when I went to visit a friend for lunch, he had a setup of Linn/Grace/Supex, Nac12s/naps/Nap160 and a pair of ELS57s. About mid afternoon I started playing records, entrancing. I had to be thrown out at midnight, about 9 hours later!

Not being able to spend enough to duplicate that system, I ended up with a Linn Basik (silver) player, Nac42/Nap110 amplifier and after trying a few different speakers, a pair of rare ATR Monitors from Germany. Though it clearly lacked the refinement of my friends system it had more presence and exuberence, and that very much suited me.

A very nicely judged system, the speakers kind of matched my taste, the 42/110 was one of the last 'musical' Naim amplifiers before the Hicap and other 'improvements' introduced that relentless quality that I grew to hate and of course, at that time, the Linn was a true revelation.

 

[Electro]

I have tried several Audiolab amps over the years and they all made music sound bland an nothing like any other amp I have ever heard .

I was particularly dissapointed with the 8000Q ( original version ) and 8000M mono's the combo was powerful but truly awful and completely killed the music imo.

I used the 8000Q with another power amp an it wasn't that bad so I guess the problem was the power amps.