Amplifier with DAC and Spotify to drive B&W 685

[gasolin]

To the OP.

When you say you want Spotify, do you mean Spotify Connect, or do you have it available from another source such as a computer or iThing.

To Drummerman and Vlad.

Regarding volume, sound level and perceived loudness.

To increase the measured SPL of a hi-fi system by 3dB requires a doubling of the power, both the acoustic power emanating from the speakers and the electrical power being fed to them. To double the SPL from the system, ie to increase it's level by 10dB, requires 10 times the amplifier power. These are objective measurements and not open to debate.

In a hi-fi system changes to perceived loudness is something else. Generally speaking it is considered that the average person can detect a 1dB change in SPL as a change in loudness. However this is under test conditions and using test tones, in your front room, playing music, a 2dB change is required for the listener to interpret the increase as a change in loudness.

For most people, turning the hi-fi up 3dB on a music signal would be heard as a small but definite increase in loudness, it might take twice the power to increase the loudness by this amount, but it is definitely no-where near 'twice as loud'. In fact twice as loud is usually defined as +10dB, ie requiring 10 times the power, but this is a subjective evaluation. Modern tests suggest that the average person perceives a change in level of around 8dB to be twice as loud, but a different sample might well give different results.

3 db louder is double the wattage but having one center speaker with a spl of 90 db and ad a second one that also have a spl of 90 db the total spl is increased by 6 db (96db)

 

[gasolin]

Is nice the Denon, however has 65wpc at 4 ohm so hard to drive my speakers

It has about 90 watt in 4 ohm

 

[gasolin]

Is nice the Denon, however has 65wpc at 4 ohm so hard to drive my speakers

Comparing power data in the way that you are doing is of no great help, you need some knowledge and experience to undestand what these figures mean in the context of a real world system.

The Denon boasts a power of 2 x 65 watts, yet only has a power supply of 55 watts, no way is that 2 x 65 watts going to be sustained for more than a few fractions of a second.

Put it another way, the Denon can draw up to 55 watts, it will need to use a few watts for the display, the player, the dac etc, etc and of course no power supply is 100% efficient so the best we can hope for, given the clever digital power circuits, is around 40 watts of power from the amplifiers, ie 20 watts per channel into 4 ohms, maybe around 15 wpc into 8 ohms. That is the real capability of this unit.

Just for comparison, one of my favourite budget amplifiers is the Creek 50a. The Creek is, on paper, a little bit more powerful than the Denon, 85 as against 65 watts but it has a power supply that can deliver 350 watts compared to the 55 watts of the Denon.

So you rate how good a amp is according to much the power consumption is and not by how good it sounds?

Again try to se the award overview what they think of the amp

http://www.denon.co.uk/uk/product/pages/product-detail.aspx?catid=systems&subid=networkmusicsystems&productid=ceolpiccolo

Isn't the Denon ceol Piccolo like the Nad D3020 (please correct me if am wrong) a classe d amp which is much more efficient then a class a/b amp?

Beppep what speakers are we talking about?

Wattage isn't every thing, i have a small ok efficient speakers (89db) and it can be loud (i don't need more power/spl), but if you have Big speaker or speakers with low sensitivity and a BIG room i guess you want more then 2x65 watt at 1khz , 4ohm(denon spec), i prefere sound quality over wattage, i don't need more power then what Denon ceol piccolo has .

 

[gasolin]

By the way the Nad 375BBE is rated at 290watt power consumption but has a max power bridged of 1200watt in 2ohm(nad spec), does that make it a bad product compared to the Creek 50A

 

[Vladimir]

 

[davedotco]

Gasolin.

Read my posts. I was simply pointed out that choosing an amplifier based on unqualified power specifications is quite rediculous.

The Denon is quoted as 65 watts into 4 ohms. The power supply has a maximun capacity of 55 watts so how can it output 130 watts?

Simple, the power supply stores energy that it then releases to the amplifiers so it is entirely possible for the Denon to produce 130 watts, but only for a few fractions of a second as the stored energy will run out.

Now, music is not continuous, so a 15-20 watt amplifier, with reasonable headroom will drive sensible, easy to drive speakers to fairly healthy levels on 'normal' musical material. The Denon (and its close relation the Marantz) all in ones do this extremely well as a fair few owners on this site will testify.

However what they are not, is the kind of powerhouse that the marketing guys will try and tell you they are, that is the issue. Take any of these units and drive them hard into 'difficult' speakers, play heavily compressed, bass heavy modern music, maybe with a bit of bass boost and you will run out of power very quickly indeed. Any enthusiast who has been round the block more than once will understand this, it is just a decent indicator of what you get for your money.

 

[gasolin]

They also rate the power of 65 watt at 1 khz and not 20-20.000hz so that makes them louder (test it at 1khz).

As long as it's loud enought i don't care how much watt my amp has, i guess small amps are made for small houses,space as the have in japan,china or your first appartment, in those small room as you state 10-15 watt is more then enough for small room,speakers, so i think if the don't make the amp very power full, the instead make it sound good. The small denon all in one systems do get good reviews (sound) especially the cheap one from denon with cd player, whathifi have choosen the latest model for many years as the best cheap all in one system

A different amp then the denon ceol piccolo could be the Onky TX-8050 i have heard may talk positive about this reciver and it's not that expensive

Heard the B&W 685 the new version last week with the nad D3020 and it sounded better the dali zensor 1, (just so it was about the B&W 685), the B&W 685 is rated to 100watt rms and my Boston a26 is rated at 150 rms i dont think they can handle that much power so 90 or 110 watt i wouldn't care as long as it sound good and you don't play louder then it sounds clean with no distrotion you should be fine

 

[BigH]

65 W + 65 W, high power output (4 ohms, 1 kHz)[/list]

 

[BigH]

Cant edit last post for some reason. Look that is high power output it not contineous if it was it would soon cut out. Reviews are for a all in one system not for amplifiers. Im sure it is good but its not the same as comparing it with mid range amps. Agree with Dave on this one.

 

[Beppep]

Thanks a lot guys, I didn't expect so many useful comments and helps.. I really appreciate your effort to share knowhow

the speakers I will use are B&W 685, however I listened the Dali Zensor 3 and I really liked the old school sound.

I bought the Yamaha R-N500, got a discount of 75quid from retailer so it will arrive tomorrow for 320 that is a good price.

regarding the speakers well, I am wondering if I ha e to move to Dali..

 

[Beppep]

/davedotco

I listen music over Spotify or from mp3 only, so no other sources

 

[Beppep]

Gasolin.

Read my posts. I was simply pointed out that choosing an amplifier based on unqualified power specifications is quite rediculous

yes, you are right, however do you really have time to try all the solutions in the market and spend hours in a shop to try how the systems sound with different configurations?

i would like to have but I don't that's why from my ridiculous question I got so many precious advises from people who know more than me.

when I buy something is the use of the thing that drive my choices then I try to understand if the components are goods or not for the value and I ask to someone who is more expert than me ( that's the reason I join this forum)..if you ask me about wine, well I can teach you for a week as my family produce since a century and I study that, regarding quality in sound, well is what I feel when I heard and the type of print I want

 

[davedotco]

I think we are suffering from 'amplifier power inflation'.

It used to be rather 'cool' to understate the power of your amplifier, Naim once quoted their Nait amplifier as '3 1/2 watts per channel into some load or another'.

These days it seem that the opposite is the case, particularly so with products in the mass market. It appears that 'watts' sell, so specs are adjusted acordingly, 'music power' has long been sussed by the customer who now demands RMS power, that the amplifier can not produce this power for more than a fraction of a second isnot really understood.

What many people seem to forget is just how little power a well sorted, well matched system will use, even at quite healthy levels and few seem to grasp how much power is needed should the requirements be rather more demanding.

 

[davedotco]

Gasolin.

Read my posts. I was simply pointed out that choosing an amplifier based on unqualified power specifications is quite rediculous

yes, you are right, however do you really have time to try all the solutions in the market and spend hours in a shop to try how the systems sound with different configurations?

i would like to have but I don't that's why from my ridiculous question I got so many precious advises from people who know more than me.

when I buy something is the use of the thing that drive my choices then I try to understand if the components are goods or not for the value and I ask to someone who is more expert than me ( that's the reason I join this forum)..if you ask me about wine, well I can teach you for a week as my family produce since a century and I study that, regarding quality in sound, well is what I feel when I heard and the type of print I want

Fair comment Bep', though to be honest many of the comments really lacked understanding.

The point really is being aware of what you know and what you don't know, I know nothing of any consequence about wine, but I know and accept that I do not understand and would not attempt to advise anyone on the subject.

In an ideal world you would go to a decent dealer who would, over an hour or two, take you through the basics of what works and makes a good sound and what does not. Sadly, even in the UK, which has plenty of dealers, few operate in this way any more and to be honest the customers are not that interested. Far easier to point at a review (just another persons biased opinion), offer a good discount and take the money, modern customers are far more impressed by a good deal than they are by a good sound.

The result sadly is that most people who buy systems end up with truly cr@p sound, I see it in peoples homes time and time again and mostly they do not even realise. The few that come on here and similar fora really are the tip of the iceberg.

 

[gasolin]

I thought the new B&W 685 had a more varm sound then the dali zensor 1 which is brighter, i guess the balance is better from dali zensor 3 because of more bass a more warm,full bodied sound that complimets the fresh bright sounding tweeter.

And since it's made in denmark (as i am) i can recommend them ;-)

 

[Beppep]

I thought the new B&W 685 had a more varm sound then the dali zensor 1 which is brighter, i guess the balance is better from dali zensor 3 because of more bass a more warm,full bodied sound that complimets the fresh bright sounding tweeter.

And since it's made in denmark (as i am) i can recommend them ;-)

den är bra, kännner du hifi klubben?

I used to live in Stockholm for 5 years

 

[gasolin]

I thought the new B&W 685 had a more varm sound then the dali zensor 1 which is brighter, i guess the balance is better from dali zensor 3 because of more bass a more warm,full bodied sound that complimets the fresh bright sounding tweeter.

And since it's made in denmark (as i am) i can recommend them ;-)

den är bra, kännner du hifi klubben?

I used to live in Stockholm for 5 years

Ja i Danmark

 

[davedotco]

I thought the new B&W 685 had a more varm sound then the dali zensor 1 which is brighter, i guess the balance is better from dali zensor 3 because of more bass a more warm,full bodied sound that complimets the fresh bright sounding tweeter.

And since it's made in denmark (as i am) i can recommend them ;-)

den är bra, kännner du hifi klubben?

I used to live in Stockholm for 5 years

Ja i Danmark

jIyajbe' ?

 

[gasolin]

I thought the new B&W 685 had a more varm sound then the dali zensor 1 which is brighter, i guess the balance is better from dali zensor 3 because of more bass a more warm,full bodied sound that complimets the fresh bright sounding tweeter.

And since it's made in denmark (as i am) i can recommend them ;-)

den är bra, kännner du hifi klubben?

I used to live in Stockholm for 5 years

Ja i Danmark

jIyajbe' ?

Yes

 

[Beppep]

I think that I have done something I regret..just bought Monitor Audio silver 2, paid a fortune btw, and I feel these speakers really cold as sound, not involving at all. I tried all the amp settings , I think that are too bright and not musical as I heard recently the Zensor 3. I know that is too early as I have listened only 10h but don't think that after 90h sounds will get so much musical and envolving. any experience with these ones?

 

[BigH]

I think that I have done something I regret..just bought Monitor Audio silver 2, paid a fortune btw, and I feel these speakers really cold as sound, not involving at all. I tried all the amp settings , I think that are too bright and not musical as I heard recently the Zensor 3. I know that is too early as I have listened only 10h but don't think that after 90h sounds will get so much musical and envolving. any experience with these ones?

What amp do you have?

 

[gasolin]

I think that I have done something I regret..just bought Monitor Audio silver 2, paid a fortune btw, and I feel these speakers really cold as sound, not involving at all. I tried all the amp settings , I think that are too bright and not musical as I heard recently the Zensor 3. I know that is too early as I have listened only 10h but don't think that after 90h sounds will get so much musical and envolving. any experience with these ones?

I remember to have read that the ma silver is very bright, that's why you read reviews and ask on forums like the ones on whathifi so you don't buy something you don't like, i don't think the ma's will be other then bright sounding, get something else that you like, like the Dali zensor 3, Dynaudio dm2/6,2/7 or mabye a pair of kef LS50 if you can afford them, i think that's the way you have to go

 

[gasolin]

I think that I have done something I regret..just bought Monitor Audio silver 2, paid a fortune btw, and I feel these speakers really cold as sound, not involving at all. I tried all the amp settings , I think that are too bright and not musical as I heard recently the Zensor 3. I know that is too early as I have listened only 10h but don't think that after 90h sounds will get so much musical and envolving. any experience with these ones?

[/quote

What amp do you have?

In #35 He wrote: I bought the Yamaha R-N500, got a discount of 75quid from retailer so it will arrive tomorrow for 320 that is a good price.

 

[Reijer]

At first, my B&W 685 s2 were driven by a NAD3020 from 1981 with 2*20 Wrms. Powerfull enough but missed someting in the sound and connections.

Since a few weeks using a TEAC with 2*35 Wrms. Much more control, detail, etc, even at low listeninglevels. So I think it's Not only the pure power (on paper) but also how it's availeble for your speakers: or how hard can the speakers suck the volts put of the amp before it's electrical vacuumed.....

Good luck auditioning and buying your gear.

 

[Beppep]

I spent one h at the shop to listen, I was not too convinced but I like the high on the speakers, however couldn't power with other amp than a nand without bass and treble settings. I went home, plugged in so many different way but the sound is not warm, nothing, I tried all type of music I have same impression, bright sound, well really clean and clear, the speakers pump a lot, but is not envolving