Amplifier with DAC and Spotify to drive B&W 685

[Beppep]

Hi All,

I need a prompt advise as I have to buy an amplifier with DAC integrated and able to play through Spotify.

I was thinking about two Yamaha:

R-N301 and RX-S600.

R-N301 has more power, is 110W at 8 ohm, where the RX-S600 stop at 90w, however has more features.

 

[Beppep]

Anyone can advise on that?

 

[drummerman]

Well, do you need the power or the features ... ?

Bear in mind that the increase in loudness between the two is probably less than 1db ... (3db is twice the volume).

regards

 

[Beppep]

So what do you suggest? I guess for a/v there are better receivers and I don't need at the moment...I need power of watt and set options however the rn 301 has not subwoofer out ant not review online..

 

[drummerman]

In that case I guess neither is any good ...

Keep on looking for something that fits your needs/budget and come back with a suggestion. You can, by the way, connect a sub at speaker level

regards

 

[Beppep]

My question is are 90/100 watt as output able to drive the B&w properly? There are no so many amp with Spotify and Dac integrated

 

[Vladimir]

Yamaha RX-S600: barely 30Wpc RMS in 8 ohms. Has subwoofer output.

Yamaha R-N301: 100Wpc RMS in 8 ohms. Has subwoofer output.

Regarding extra watts converting in dB. For extra 3dB of loudness we need to double the amplifier power. 20W difference between 90W and 110W per channel amplifiers amounts to only 0.66dB.

A sound that is 6dB louder than the reference sound, feels as if it is twice as loud.

 

[Beppep]

the RX-s600 should be more u said
5 x 60W power[/list]

 

[Vladimir]

That is in 6 ohms. The default measurement is at 8 ohms, which is so petite, they are hiding it.

I just downloaded the full manual and the power in 8 ohms is 55W+55W L/R RMS. It cannot deliver 5x55W, only 2x55W. Split the 110W total between all the channels. The fronts will get 2x30W and center+back will get 16W each.

With lower speaker impedance and higher distortion (THD) more power becomes available. The downside is less sound quality and more amplifier heating up.

 

[Beppep]

the RX-s600 reach 90w at 6 ohm so I guess cannot drive properly the speakers. What do you suggest as integrated Dac with network streaming a part of the Yamaha RN301?

 

[Vladimir]

Harman Kardon HK3770 is a gutsier amplifier with more bass. Yamaha R-N500 is a better DAC and Network Streamer, clearer and more transparent sound, better features.

Your choice. *smile*

 

[Beppep]

Thanks a lot mate, the RN500 has however less power than the 301, is 80w vs 100w.. never tried the difference for DAC

 

[Vladimir]

Thanks a lot mate, the RN500 has however less power than the 301, is 80w vs 100w.. never tried the difference for DAC

Again they did a trick in the RN301 specs, they rated 100Wpc at 40Hz-20kHz at 8 ohms 0.2% THD. The RN500 is rated 85Wpc at 20Hz-20kHz at 8 ohms 0.04% THD.

The RN301 is rated more powerfull at a narrower frequency range (20Hz less bass) and higher distortion.

I personally wouldn't buy anything from such a deceiving company.

 

[gasolin]

I have just bought a Denon Ceol Piccolo DRA-N5 it can do what you want and it has power between the small and big yamaha (i bought with out the speakers) Try download the Award Overview (or just read the one from whathifi) http://www.denon.co.uk/uk/downloads/pages/instructionmanual.aspx

 

[gasolin]

OOPS double posts

 

[drummerman]

I have just bought a Denon Ceol Piccolo DRA-N5 it can do what you want and it has power between the small and big yamaha (i bought with out the speakers) Try download the Award Overview (or just read the one from whathifi) http://www.denon.co.uk/uk/downloads/pages/instructionmanual.aspx

The little Denon is rated into 4ohm with rather vague additional information. It will likely have useable power of perhaps 2 x 25w into 8ohm, both channels driven at reasonably low distortion.

That is still good for such a small unit but it still doesn't match the afromentioned receivers.

regards

 

[gasolin]

I have just bought a Denon Ceol Piccolo DRA-N5 it can do what you want and it has power between the small and big yamaha (i bought with out the speakers) Try download the Award Overview (or just read the one from whathifi) http://www.denon.co.uk/uk/downloads/pages/instructionmanual.aspx

The little Denon is rated into 4ohm with rather vague additional information. It will likely have useable power of perhaps 2 x 25w into 8ohm, both channels driven at reasonably low distortion.

That is still good for such a small unit but it still doesn't match the afromentioned receivers.

regards

According to a german review it has 2x55 watt in 8 ohm and 2x95watt in 4 ohm, the amp is used in the denon dra f100 models, ceol and as fare as i know also in some marantz all in one systems

Distortion under 0.2%

http://www.hifiklubben.com/files/Test/Denon/D-F109-HiFiTest-201303.pdf

 

[drummerman]

I have just bought a Denon Ceol Piccolo DRA-N5 it can do what you want and it has power between the small and big yamaha (i bought with out the speakers) Try download the Award Overview (or just read the one from whathifi) http://www.denon.co.uk/uk/downloads/pages/instructionmanual.aspx

The little Denon is rated into 4ohm with rather vague additional information. It will likely have useable power of perhaps 2 x 25w into 8ohm, both channels driven at reasonably low distortion.

That is still good for such a small unit but it still doesn't match the afromentioned receivers.

regards

According to a german review it has 2x55 watt in 8 ohm and 2x95watt in 4 ohm, the amp is used in the denon dra f100 models, ceol and as fare as i know also in some marantz all in one systems

Distortion under 0.2%

http://www.hifiklubben.com/files/Test/Denon/D-F109-HiFiTest-201303.pdf

Perhaps I got the model wrong apologies. I just googled Denon piccolo

regards

 

[gasolin]

it still doesn't match the afromentioned receivers (power or sound quality?) Nobody have said anything about which speakers are gonna be use with the new amp

 

[davedotco]

To the OP.

When you say you want Spotify, do you mean Spotify Connect, or do you have it available from another source such as a computer or iThing.

To Drummerman and Vlad.

Regarding volume, sound level and perceived loudness.

To increase the measured SPL of a hi-fi system by 3dB requires a doubling of the power, both the acoustic power emanating from the speakers and the electrical power being fed to them. To double the SPL from the system, ie to increase it's level by 10dB, requires 10 times the amplifier power. These are objective measurements and not open to debate.

In a hi-fi system changes to perceived loudness is something else. Generally speaking it is considered that the average person can detect a 1dB change in SPL as a change in loudness. However this is under test conditions and using test tones, in your front room, playing music, a 2dB change is required for the listener to interpret the increase as a change in loudness.

For most people, turning the hi-fi up 3dB on a music signal would be heard as a small but definite increase in loudness, it might take twice the power to increase the loudness by this amount, but it is definitely no-where near 'twice as loud'. In fact twice as loud is usually defined as +10dB, ie requiring 10 times the power, but this is a subjective evaluation. Modern tests suggest that the average person perceives a change in level of around 8dB to be twice as loud, but a different sample might well give different results.

 

[Vladimir]

Regarding volume, sound level and perceived loudness.

To increase the measured SPL of a hi-fi system by 3dB requires a doubling of the power, both the acoustic power emanating from the speakers and the electrical power being fed to them. To double the SPL from the system, ie to increase it's level by 10dB, requires 10 times the amplifier power. These are objective measurements and not open to debate.

In a hi-fi system changes to perceived loudness is something else. Generally speaking it is considered that the average person can detect a 1dB change in SPL as a change in loudness. However this is under test conditions and using test tones, in your front room, playing music, a 2dB change is required for the listener to interpret the increase as a change in loudness.

For most people, turning the hi-fi up 3dB on a music signal would be heard as a small but definite increase in loudness, it might take twice the power to increase the loudness by this amount, but it is definitely no-where near 'twice as loud'. In fact twice as loud is usually defined as +10dB, ie requiring 10 times the power, but this is a subjective evaluation. Modern tests suggest that the average person perceives a change in level of around 8dB to be twice as loud, but a different sample might well give different results.

Thanks for the more accurate info. Much appreciated. *good*

 

[davedotco]

Regarding volume, sound level and perceived loudness.

To increase the measured SPL of a hi-fi system by 3dB requires a doubling of the power, both the acoustic power emanating from the speakers and the electrical power being fed to them. To double the SPL from the system, ie to increase it's level by 10dB, requires 10 times the amplifier power. These are objective measurements and not open to debate.

In a hi-fi system changes to perceived loudness is something else. Generally speaking it is considered that the average person can detect a 1dB change in SPL as a change in loudness. However this is under test conditions and using test tones, in your front room, playing music, a 2dB change is required for the listener to interpret the increase as a change in loudness.

For most people, turning the hi-fi up 3dB on a music signal would be heard as a small but definite increase in loudness, it might take twice the power to increase the loudness by this amount, but it is definitely no-where near 'twice as loud'. In fact twice as loud is usually defined as +10dB, ie requiring 10 times the power, but this is a subjective evaluation. Modern tests suggest that the average person perceives a change in level of around 8dB to be twice as loud, but a different sample might well give different results.

Thanks for the info. Much appreciated. *good*

It is quite interesting, and very much relevant to discussions elsewhere, that a difference in measured level of about 1dB on a hi-fi system playing music is not perceived as an increase in loudness.

But it is often perceived as an increase in quality. (clearer, sharper, more focused.......*unknw*)

 

[Beppep]

Is nice the Denon, however has 65wpc at 4 ohm so hard to drive my speakers

 

[Vladimir]

It is quite interesting, and very much relevant to discussions elsewhere, that a difference in measured level of about 1dB on a hi-fi system playing music is not perceived as an increase in loudness.

But it is often perceived as an increase in quality. (clearer, sharper, more focused.......*unknw*)

We can detect even 0.5dB difference in just one channel between two music tracks (tested here from comment #197 onward). You would really struggle but you will notice there is a difference. And of course we don't acknowledge it as quantitative difference in loudness, just like you explained, it's recognized as something qualitative.

One needs to have in mind that 2-3dB channel imbalance is industry standard on analogue logarithmic volume pots. Yet people still think they can pinpoint qualities in amplifiers playing in untreated room with other pairing electronic components, simply by hearing. The poor engineers have to go to university for a degree and then buy thousands of dollars of equipment to discern differences in electronic circuitry. Such a waste it seems.

 

[davedotco]

Is nice the Denon, however has 65wpc at 4 ohm so hard to drive my speakers

Comparing power data in the way that you are doing is of no great help, you need some knowledge and experience to undestand what these figures mean in the context of a real world system.

The Denon boasts a power of 2 x 65 watts, yet only has a power supply of 55 watts, no way is that 2 x 65 watts going to be sustained for more than a few fractions of a second.

Put it another way, the Denon can draw up to 55 watts, it will need to use a few watts for the display, the player, the dac etc, etc and of course no power supply is 100% efficient so the best we can hope for, given the clever digital power circuits, is around 40 watts of power from the amplifiers, ie 20 watts per channel into 4 ohms, maybe around 15 wpc into 8 ohms. That is the real capability of this unit.

Just for comparison, one of my favourite budget amplifiers is the Creek 50a. The Creek is, on paper, a little bit more powerful than the Denon, 85 as against 65 watts but it has a power supply that can deliver 350 watts compared to the 55 watts of the Denon.