Amplifier Difference between Home Cinema and Hi-Fi

[KiwiInLondon]

Hi, I'm new to the Hi-Fi side of things having spent the last 5-6 years just on the home cinema side. From a hi-fi perspective I currently have a pair of MA silver 6 (8 ohms / 60-150W RMS) and a Yamaha 1030 amp (7 x 110W) + sub and surrond but they're not so relevant. I've come to realise that I can count on one hand the number of hours I've spent watching films this year, while the number of hours on spotify and other computer music must be in the 100's of hours so far.

So I've started to look at using a Hi-Fi amp to drive the silver 6's and ahhh - :O wth- most of the 5 star rated amps in What hi-fi can barely hit the minimum 60 watt requirement never mind the 100W I believe would work best with these speakers. Which leads to the topic and my two questions.

The general question is why do the amps (combined and some power amps) seem to have so little power, particularly compared to a home cinema?

The specific question is for a recommendation or two to drive the silver 6's. Using a Cyrus pre-amp along with two mono-blocks to get at least 100W of power seems - well - excessive. :doh:

In terms of music that I listen to I'm really loving Jazz at the moment but over time my tastes are pretty eclectic going from a broad range of classical to pop and dance and spending time with the likes of Iron Maiden and AC/DC.

 

[Esra]

Hi,you can just forget 7x110W from your Yamaha AVR,fairytale.You should try an Arcam A19 e.x. and you will understand that it is far superior to your AVR with your great Silver6 speakers although it has half the rated power.Of course adding more power with an amp will deliver more of everything you will experience with a dedicated stereo but i am sure the step you will do going from your AVR to an even little Arcam A19 will be huge and satisfiying you will not even think about to upgrade for the next time and just enjoy your music in a total other quality.The Silver 6 have good dB so they don´t need much power but will sound even better with more power as nearly every speaker out there does.

 

[Vladimir]

Yamaha RX-A1030 - AVR

120 W per channel into 8Ω, 1 kHz, 0.09% THD, 1 ch driven

Roksan Kandy K2 BT - integrated amplifier

150 W into 8Ω both channels driven

300 W into 4Ω both channels driven

THD 0.005% 1kHz - 8Ω

How to Compare Amplifier Power Ratings by Patrick Quilter

Thankfully, there are two common standards that make it easier to compare amplifier output ratings: FTC and EIA. The FTC standard, established by the Federal Trade Commission, requires a manufacturer’s stated power rating must be met, with both channels driven, over the advertised frequency range – usually 20 Hz to 20 kHz – at no more than the rated total harmonic distortion (or THD). See Example 1.

The EIA rating, established by The Electronic Industries Association, reflects the power output for a single channel driven at mid-band – typically 1 kHz – with 1% THD clipping. This standard (shown in Example 2) inflates the amplifier’s power points to 10 to 20% higher than the FTC ratings.

Of the two, the FTC rating tells you much more about the product than the EIA rating. The FTC rating gives you the average power output for both channels over a wide frequency range and lower distortion level. This is a much more conservative – and realistic – measure of an amplifier’s average output power. But in order to claim more power, some manufacturers might list only the EIA numbers; others will disclose both FTC and EIA output ratings enabling you to easily compare manufacturer’s specs.

 

[MajorFubar]

You've been fed a lie and duped by manufacturers pretty figures. Also you have a misunderstanding of how power ratings correspond to loudness, but that's not unusual because the mass-market manufacturers would prefer you didn't know so their pretty figures continue to look impressive. For example, all else being equal, a 100W amp won't sound twice as loud as a 50W one, it will sound just 3dB louder: a relatively small amount. Rest assured that a beefy 50W RMS amp with good current delivery will drive an average set of speakers in an average-sized room to such high volumes that you'll suffer permanent ear damage before it runs out of steam.

 

[hifikrazy]

Don't read too much into the power ratings. In layman terms, it's the quality of the watts produced by a hifi amp that's different to an AV amp. I can recommend the Unison Research Unico Primo, with it's 80 watts of hybrid power plenty nice for your Silver 6. Of course you could also go for the Unico Nuovo if you still insist to get close to the 100 watts you think they need.

 

[Vladimir]

One should learn how to read and interpret specs, not ignore them. :shame:

 

[Esra]

You've been fed a lie and duped by manufacturers pretty figures. Also you have a misunderstanding of how power ratings correspond to loudness, but that's not unusual because the mass-market manufacturers would prefer you didn't know so their pretty figures continue to look impressive. For example, all else being equal, a 100W amp won't sound twice as loud as a 50W one, it will sound just 3dB louder: a relatively small amount. Rest assured that a beefy 50W RMS amp with good current delivery will drive an average set of speakers in an average-sized room to such high volumes that you'll suffer permanent ear damage before it runs out of steam.

Major is right but more real watt never hurts.It´s not all about loudness.

 

[Broner]

Someone should recommend the NAD C356BEE which has plenty of power for these speakers. Not me though, as I've only read that it should work well MA.

Vladimir: recommend the NAD please

 

[Vladimir]

NAD + MA is a fairly well known combo in the budget region that works. No experiments there.

 

[KiwiInLondon]

Thanks for the link. I particularly liked the way Patrick started the page with "The pastor has just given you the OK..."

At the moment I've discounted the Kandy due to its lack of digital inputs, but I appreciate that it has the power to drive the speakers with oomph to spare.

You added one of the AVR's power output, but I thought that I could see that there the FTC power was also quoted at , 110W. Now I haven't been able to easily find out if that 110W drops as you move from 2 to 3 to 5 to 7 channels but based on the quote of 7 x 110W I can't see how they could make that quote and not mean that each channel is rated as 110W using the FTC rating. If I'm completly off track please gently shephard me back.

Rated Output power (20Hz-20kHz, 2ch driven) 110 W (8 ohms, 0.09% THD)

 

[Vladimir]

You've been fed a lie and duped by manufacturers pretty figures. Also you have a misunderstanding of how power ratings correspond to loudness, but that's not unusual because the mass-market manufacturers would prefer you didn't know so their pretty figures continue to look impressive. For example, all else being equal, a 100W amp won't sound twice as loud as a 50W one, it will sound just 3dB louder: a relatively small amount. Rest assured that a beefy 50W RMS amp with good current delivery will drive an average set of speakers in an average-sized room to such high volumes that you'll suffer permanent ear damage before it runs out of steam.

Major is right but more real watt never hurts.It´s not all about loudness.

50W amps clip when pushed moderately high with transient peaks in lower frequencies. Depending on the music and speakers they may even clip in normal listening levels, but not be noticed. Anything above 1% THD in 8 ohms for 1kHz is clipping. Ideally you want more headroom even if you (think) are not using it.

In a normal room with 8 ohms (nominal) speakers, not dipping down under 5 ohms, 90dB efficient, positioned near walls, an amplifier of 50W is sufficient, but it will clip if played loud.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

 

[Vladimir]

Thanks for the link. I particularly liked the way Patrick started the page with "The pastor has just given you the OK..."

At the moment I've discounted the Kandy due to its lack of digital inputs, but I appreciate that it has the power to drive the speakers with oomph to spare.

You added one of the AVR's power output, but I thought that I could see that there the FTC power was also quoted at , 110W. Now I haven't been able to easily find out if that 110W drops as you move from 2 to 3 to 5 to 7 channels but based on the quote of 7 x 110W I can't see how they could make that quote and not mean that each channel is rated as 110W using the FTC rating. If I'm completly off track please gently shephard me back.

Rated Output power (20Hz-20kHz, 2ch driven) 110 W (8 ohms, 0.09% THD)

My recommendation goes to Sony STR-DB930.

90W RMS at 8 ohms 20Hz-20kHz, 0.05% THD, 2 ch. driven.

Build quality excellent.

All the digital inputs you need.

 

[Laurens_B]

It is remarkable that they say 7x110 watts, because elsewhere in the specs they say 110 watts (2ch driven). I can tell you the power definately drops when more than 2 channels are used. I am not sure if I can link to SoundAndVision here, but they test a lot of receivers and their power output. You can have a look there, as they also have the measurements of Aventage receivers. The power drop on 5/7 ch is very significant.

IMHO, the power specs (when compared properly) only say something about how clean the sound is on a certain volume level, not so much about how loud you can play.

 

[KiwiInLondon]

You've been fed a lie and duped by manufacturers pretty figures. Also you have a misunderstanding of how power ratings correspond to loudness, but that's not unusual because the mass-market manufacturers would prefer you didn't know so their pretty figures continue to look impressive. For example, all else being equal, a 100W amp won't sound twice as loud as a 50W one, it will sound just 3dB louder: a relatively small amount. Rest assured that a beefy 50W RMS amp with good current delivery will drive an average set of speakers in an average-sized room to such high volumes that you'll suffer permanent ear damage before it runs out of steam.

Major is right but more real watt never hurts.It´s not all about loudness.

50W amps clip when pushed moderately high with transient peaks in lower frequencies. Depending on the music and speakers they may even clip in normal listening levels, but not be noticed. Anything above 1% THD in 8 ohms for 1kHz is clipping. Ideally you want more headroom even if you (think) are not using it.

In a normal room with 8 ohms (nominal) speakers, not dipping down under 5 ohms, 90dB efficient, positioned near walls, an amplifier of 50W is sufficient, but it will clip if played loud.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Thank you for pointing out that 50W is likely to cause clipping which (If I understand correctly) could damage the speakers.

 

[the record spot]

I went with the powerful amp I have for my speakers (180w/ch - two channels driven) and it's been measured and tested by Hi Fi World to that level IIRC.

Just check which amp you're going with and enjoy the benefits you get from the better AV amps out there. Very happy with the choice I made, had my amp a year now and it's been a winner. Used daily, sound quality is a dream. No plans to go back to a traditional integrated amp in a hurry at all.

 

[Esra]

You've been fed a lie and duped by manufacturers pretty figures. Also you have a misunderstanding of how power ratings correspond to loudness, but that's not unusual because the mass-market manufacturers would prefer you didn't know so their pretty figures continue to look impressive. For example, all else being equal, a 100W amp won't sound twice as loud as a 50W one, it will sound just 3dB louder: a relatively small amount. Rest assured that a beefy 50W RMS amp with good current delivery will drive an average set of speakers in an average-sized room to such high volumes that you'll suffer permanent ear damage before it runs out of steam.

Major is right but more real watt never hurts.It´s not all about loudness.

50W amps clip when pushed moderately high with transient peaks in lower frequencies. Depending on the music and speakers they may even clip in normal listening levels, but not be noticed. Anything above 1% THD in 8 ohms for 1kHz is clipping. Ideally you want more headroom even if you (think) are not using it.

In a normal room with 8 ohms (nominal) speakers, not dipping down under 5 ohms, 90dB efficient, positioned near walls, an amplifier of 50W is sufficient, but it will clip if played loud.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Thank you for pointing out that 50W is likely to cause clipping which (If I understand correctly) could damage the speakers.

Now think about how many times you probably had clipping with your AVR Your speakers are ok?

 

[Vladimir]

I went with the powerful amp I have for my speakers (180w/ch - two channels driven) and it's been measured and tested by Hi Fi World to that level IIRC.

Just check which amp you're going with and enjoy the benefits you get from the better AV amps out there. Very happy with the choice I made, had my amp a year now and it's been a winner. Used daily, sound quality is a dream. No plans to go back to a traditional integrated amp in a hurry at all.

Onkyo TX-NR818

135 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.08%, 2 channels driven, FTC)

Consider it at just 1kHz, 8 Ohms, 0.9% THD, it may certanly chuck out those muscular 185W + 185W RMS.

 

[Vladimir]

Thank you for pointing out that 50W is likely to cause clipping which (If I understand correctly) could damage the speakers.

People who buy 50W amps and consider them sufficient, they themselves are fruggal with the loudness levels, have the listening triangle fairly small and have wives and no raging hormones. They indeed have no issues and don't drive their amps into clipping. However, someone who likes listening Jason Statham exploding half the city to rubble or rocking out to music at high SPLs, will have issues getting clean amplification at just 50W p/c in 8ohms.

What you need is an amplifier sufficient for YOU (your speakers, room, listening habbits etc).

PS

I think 'amplifier clipping kills speakers' is false. But that is for another topic.

 

[the record spot]

My mistake, 180w/ch at 6 ohms. Either way, it's turning out enough, never gets near that level (neighbours) and handles the speakers well. Incidentally, the US versions of some Onkyo products occasionally differ from the UK/European models.

http://www.uk.onkyo.com/downloads/2/1/7/1/8/ONKYO_TX-NR818_datasheet_EN.pdf

 

[ISAC69]

AVR receiver isn't suitable for music listenning the sound is usualy harsh , bright and lack of depth :doh:

For your speakers I can recommend the amps bellow :

Roksan Kandy K2 BT :clap:

Naim Nait 5si :cheer:

NAD 356BEE :dance:

ROTEL 1520 V-2 :boohoo:

 

[BenLaw]

AVR receiver isn't suitable for music listenning the sound is usualy harsh , bright and lack of depth :doh:

If it's not acceptable to generalise about cables, how come you are generalising about AVRs?

 

[ESLee]

Ive recently been there with an AV amp. It was an old but mint Sony STR-VA555es I got boxed at a bargain basement price. On paper this thing shouldve done fairly well with my tiny yet tricky Spendors. Eeeeeerrrrr No. Dreadful. But I learnt that AVr's are Shocking (i know its an old model but the same age as my current stereo amp) for stereo implementation. IMHO. Wouldnt go there again.

 

[ISAC69]

AVR receiver isn't suitable for music listenning the sound is usualy harsh , bright and lack of depth :doh:

If it's not acceptable to generalise about cables, how come you are generalising about AVRs?

AVR receivers are design for HT and doing a good job in it not for music listening . This is not a generalisation :exmark:

 

[jerryapril]

Vlado: it's two channels driven always with Yamaha. Sorry.

By the way, he's got an excellent pairing with his Avantage 1030 plus MA Silver 6. Stereo amp won't help. MA Silver 8 would make a noticable difference for the better. Bi-amping 1030 to Silver 6's would improve on sound too.

Remeber, with Yamaha. it's always two channels specs. Nothing less.

Hear ya!

 

[Vladimir]

@Jerry

The Yamaha is a great VFM amp. We are just (in the broader sense) discussing amp specs and how to interpret them.

:wave: