Amplifier Difference between Home Cinema and Hi-Fi

[BenLaw]

AVR receiver isn't suitable for music listenning the sound is usualy harsh , bright and lack of depth :doh:

If it's not acceptable to generalise about cables, how come you are generalising about AVRs?

AVR receivers are design for HT and doing a good job in it not for music listening . This is not a generalisation :exmark:

You have said people need to listen to specific cables to decide whether they are any good. Unless you've listened to all the AVRs then the same applies to them. Just ask record spot.

 

[CnoEvil]

AVR receiver isn't suitable for music listenning the sound is usualy harsh , bright and lack of depth :doh:

If it's not acceptable to generalise about cables, how come you are generalising about AVRs?

AVR receivers are design for HT and doing a good job in it not for music listening . This is not a generalisation :exmark:

Have you ever heard an Arcam AVR600 / 750 or Pathos Cinema X, which are great for 2 channel? If going for AV separates, there is also Bryston and Primare.

 

[MajorFubar]

50W amps clip when pushed moderately high with transient peaks in lower frequencies. Depending on the music and speakers they may even clip in normal listening levels, but not be noticed. Anything above 1% THD in 8 ohms for 1kHz is clipping. Ideally you want more headroom even if you (think) are not using it.

In a normal room with 8 ohms (nominal) speakers, not dipping down under 5 ohms, 90dB efficient, positioned near walls, an amplifier of 50W is sufficient, but it will clip if played loud.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

All I can say is, if an amplifier with a true 50W RMS per side and good current delivery doesn't go loud enough for you before it audibly clips, then I'm not sure I want to be your neighbour. Not sure I want your ears either because you must be mutton jeff.

 

[Vladimir]

Now what we need is someone to say that all amps sound the same and tonight we disco.

 

[Vladimir]

50W amps clip when pushed moderately high with transient peaks in lower frequencies. Depending on the music and speakers they may even clip in normal listening levels, but not be noticed. Anything above 1% THD in 8 ohms for 1kHz is clipping. Ideally you want more headroom even if you (think) are not using it.

In a normal room with 8 ohms (nominal) speakers, not dipping down under 5 ohms, 90dB efficient, positioned near walls, an amplifier of 50W is sufficient, but it will clip if played loud.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

All I can say is, if an amplifier with a true 50W RMS per side and good current delivery doesn't go loud enough for you before it audibly clips, then I'm not sure I want to be your neighbour. Not sure I want your ears either because you must be mutton jeff.

I can't hear anything above 15kHz and I'm 30 y/o, so yeah...

 

[ISAC69]

AVR receiver isn't suitable for music listenning the sound is usualy harsh , bright and lack of depth :doh:

If it's not acceptable to generalise about cables, how come you are generalising about AVRs?

AVR receivers are design for HT and doing a good job in it not for music listening . This is not a generalisation :exmark:

Have you ever heard an Arcam AVR600 / 750 or Pathos Cinema X, which are great for 2 channel? If going for AV separates, there is also Bryston and Primare.

In this high price level ... I bet they're good

In mid/low level price the AVR receiver are terrible for 2 chanel music listeninng

 

[CnoEvil]

In this high price level ... I bet they're good

In mid/low level price the AVR receiver are terrible for 2 chanel music listeninng

That is a different argument......without qualification, your comment was a generalization.

 

[jerryapril]

O.K., no more tears tonight.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

The RX-A1030 will drive those speakers but you will need to dig around in the amp to unleash its stereo potential. start with turning all unused channels off.

Forget the pure direct button, it halves the volume output and will kill the dynamics on your music, you may need to print out the manual and go through the set up option. do a auto/ypo for a base reference and build from there.

I own the RX-A1020 and did put it on stereo duty with a pair of Mission 782se, to me the bass was soft and the top end rounded, the mid range was good - but this was straight out of the box with no adjustments. It is a good surround amp no reason it cannot handle stereo.

To add I use an old Yamaha DSP-AX620 for stereo ( still waiting for John Duncan to do his test/comparison thing.....) and it is an excellent amp controls the Missions to stunning levels of clarity & detail with well controlled bass in the room its in - you wanna hear it throwing Sam Smiths voice out into the room - would challenge any system I've seen listed on these pages with this set-up.

recievers can do music and its not in isolation - 60w /90w stereo amps go loud and do impress in a quick demo, but get them home and .... well read this forum and take note of the dissatisfaction of owners.... in fairness stereo amps are just now catching up with recievers.

Take time out to get to know your amp.....

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Now what we need is someone to say that all amps sound the same and tonight we disco.

Excellent! Donna sounds great through any amp. :dance:

 

[the record spot]

AVR receiver isn't suitable for music listenning the sound is usualy harsh , bright and lack of depth :doh:

If it's not acceptable to generalise about cables, how come you are generalising about AVRs?

AVR receivers are design for HT and doing a good job in it not for music listening . This is not a generalisation :exmark:

Yes it is.

 

[the record spot]

AVR receiver isn't suitable for music listenning the sound is usualy harsh , bright and lack of depth :doh:

If it's not acceptable to generalise about cables, how come you are generalising about AVRs?

AVR receivers are design for HT and doing a good job in it not for music listening . This is not a generalisation :exmark:

Have you ever heard an Arcam AVR600 / 750 or Pathos Cinema X, which are great for 2 channel? If going for AV separates, there is also Bryston and Primare.

In this high price level ... I bet they're good

In mid/low level price the AVR receiver are terrible for 2 chanel music listeninng

Generalising and uninformed. Good effort!

 

[drummerman]

I can't comment on every AV receiver but I have a Sony STR-DB930 and is imo a superb 2 channel stereo amplifier. I also have a cyrus system but the Sony needs no excuses. It is superbly built with high quality parts used throughout. Even Sony's recent ES models would find it hard to emulate.

Mine had a little work done with removal of the S-Video board and tuner module (which is very good in its own right if you need it), internal shielding of the digital board and transformer, damping of capacitors, addition of ferrite cores in crucial areas and a mains re-wire. - It has good DAC's and a very passable phono stage.

Thats a lot for very little money.

Having said that, many (but not all) recent AV Receivers below around £1000 seem to have relatively small power supplies which no doubt will have an effect on performance.

Onkyo's receivers have done very well in many tests, sometimes out-powering (and measuring) dedicated stereo amplifiers. In one or two instances the results where indistinguishable from much more expensive 2 channel products from high end manufacturers.

regards

 

[Vladimir]

This is interesting.

The OP initially asks why my Yamaha is 7x110W for same money as stereo amps? This implies that stero loving audiophiles drink the kool-aid.

Then we learn from manufacturers own specs that AVRs are barely touching 2 channel amps for power and performance.

Here comes ISAC to claim that all AVRs are bad for stereo music since they were made for speech and explosions (HT).

Then we tell him few models that are good for everything but they are pricey.

He now backpeddals to claiming all cheap AVRs are bad for music, which implies its not a matter of HT or stereo architecture, but build quality.

Now Drummerman comes and says but the cheap Sony STR-930DB QS is epic VFM, build from upper eschalon parts and dances toe to toe with audiophile stereo amps for little money.

So, the conclusion is?

 

[drummerman]

So, the conclusion is?

Generalising is seldom a good idea?

regards

 

[RobinKidderminster]

AV amps have much more inside obviously. I would expect similar 'performance' from an AV amp costing double its stereo counterpart. (Given this is a huge generalisation). Power - 50w or 100w is 3db - virtually innaudible. Power alone is not a great indicator. (Hate analogies but 2 cars with same HP can vary enormously dependant on how that power is used, gearing, torque, weight etc.)

My AV seems fine in 2ch or 2.1

 

[Esra]

This is interesting.

The OP initially asks why my Yamaha is 7x110W for same money as stereo amps? This implies that stero loving audiophiles drink the kool-aid.

Then we learn from manufacturers own specs that AVRs are barely touching 2 channel amps for power and performance.

Here comes ISAC to claim that all AVRs are bad for stereo music since they were made for speech and explosions (HT).

Then we tell him few models that are good for everything but they are pricey.

He now backpeddals to claiming all cheap AVRs are bad for music, which implies its not a matter of HT or stereo architecture, but build quality.

Now Drummerman comes and says but the cheap Sony STR-930DB QS is epic VFM, build from upper eschalon parts and dances toe to toe with audiophile stereo amps for little money.

So, the conclusion is?

Not everyone has same demanding,some are easy others hard to please.

 

[the record spot]

This is interesting.

The OP initially asks why my Yamaha is 7x110W for same money as stereo amps? This implies that stero loving audiophiles drink the kool-aid.

Then we learn from manufacturers own specs that AVRs are barely touching 2 channel amps for power and performance.

Here comes ISAC to claim that all AVRs are bad for stereo music since they were made for speech and explosions (HT).

Then we tell him few models that are good for everything but they are pricey.

He now backpeddals to claiming all cheap AVRs are bad for music, which implies its not a matter of HT or stereo architecture, but build quality.

Now Drummerman comes and says but the cheap Sony STR-930DB QS is epic VFM, build from upper eschalon parts and dances toe to toe with audiophile stereo amps for little money.

So, the conclusion is?

Not everyone has same demanding,some are easy others hard to please.

Me: very hard to please. Note amp below.

 

[Vladimir]

@Robin

3dB makes a significant difference in our homes but not much inside a noisy factory or on the highway.

Simple test how signifcant +3dB is. http://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_level.php Just hit play once or twice to listen, you don't have to take the actual test.

Notice on this chart that the gap between telephone dial tone and damaging loudness is only 10dB apart. http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html

 

[Esra]

I see myself in the middle and appreciate good sound/price ratio.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

@Robin

3dB makes a significant difference in our homes but not much inside a noisy factory or on the highway.

Simple test how signifcant +3dB is. http://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_level.php Just hit play once or twice to listen, you don't have to take the actual test.

These two sentences are contradictory IMO. I scored 50% so I cant tell 3db difference in my home. Others may have certainly more sensitive hearing.

I still maintain that a 50w and 100w amp will not sound much louder - all other things being equal - which they wont be.

I think the point is a 100w spec will have a wow factor over a 50w spec when in fact the two numbers are insignificant in themselves.

AV amps tend to have higher wattage specs - not sure why

 

[Vladimir]

@Robin

3dB makes a significant difference in our homes but not much inside a noisy factory or on the highway.

Simple test how signifcant +3dB is. http://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_level.php Just hit play once or twice to listen, you don't have to take the actual test.

These two sentences are contradictory IMO. I scored 50% so I cant tell 3db difference in my home. Others may have certainly more sensitive hearing.

I still maintain that a 50w and 100w amp will not sound much louder - all other things being equal - which they wont be.

I think the point is a 100w spec will have a wow factor over a 50w spec when in fact the two numbers are insignificant in themselves.

AV amps tend to have higher wattage specs - not sure why

I just scored 100% (10/10). Click the image to zoom in.



If I were you I'd visit the doctor. I have damaged hearing and tinitus and yet I hear 3dB difference loud and clear.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Pardon?



This provides perfect proof of something. Just not sure what tho !

 

[Vladimir]

1dB difference. Much more troublesome but if I concentrate in silence (close doors, windows to mute the neighbours lawn mower) I manage to get 100%.

 

[Electro]

@Robin

3dB makes a significant difference in our homes but not much inside a noisy factory or on the highway.

Simple test how signifcant +3dB is. http://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_level.php Just hit play once or twice to listen, you don't have to take the actual test.

Notice on this chart that the gap between telephone dial tone and damaging loudness is only 10dB apart. http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html

I did the test and was quite suprised at the difference 3db makes so I tried 1db and 0.5 db .

The ambient room noise was 35db sitting next to my computer and I scored 10/10 at 3db 10/10 at 1db and 7/10 at 0.5 db , I could not hear any difference at lower db levels .

The 0.5 level was very hard and I had seveal listens to each tone before answering but 3db and 1db were easily answered in one take .

Is this an average result ?