All New :-)

[davedotco]

OK, next try, with Chrome...

Hello eveyone you seem to be a bunch of fun guys out ther????. Thanks for sharing your thougts and experience so far. splitting up the system into a soundplate and a stereo seems interesting. No specific need for hdmi in that case. My question: does a virtual 2.1 soundbar solve the low voices issue? Since my actual real 2.1 denon doesnt. the suggestion with the active speakers seems interesting too. My question there: hiw do i solve my tv issue there? Or was your suggestion also considering the use of a soundplate? Second question: can you recommend a device for dab or internet radio? How about streaming from a phone? About The Marantz m-cr610: Interesting device! thanks for introducing it to me. My question about the speakers: the Marantz offers Bi-Amping. The Dali Zensor 3 do not offer Bi Wiring. Is there no advantage, if i choose speakers with bi-wiring? and the last question to davedotco: any preferences for the a/v reciever? And maybe someone else could recommend speakers? thank you so much! Btw I am from switzerland. Judith

A lot depends on just how complex you want to make this. From what I gather, your main priority is 2 channel music with a secondary requirement for improved dialogue on film, correct?

If this is the case then get a good A/V reciever, one that features a 'phantom centre channel'. Essentialy this takes the separate centre dialogue channel and mixes it into main left and right, to give voices a central position, ie it sounds like you have a dedicated centre channel, but you don't.

Your reciever would then be set up in two ways, to play stereo music in the simplest, best way possible or switch to a cinema setting with added dialogue for film.

Any decent dealer will be able to show you how to set that up with an appropriate unit, once set up you should be able to switch between the 2 setups with the flic of a switch.

 

[steve_1979]

the suggestion with the active speakers seems interesting too. My question there: hiw do i solve my tv issue there? Or was your suggestion also considering the use of a soundplate? Second question: can you recommend a device for dab or internet radio? How about streaming from a phone?

So my suggestion would consist of a Nakamichi AV1 + active speakers.

The TV issue: plug it into the AV1 (HDMI). Connect the 3 speakers to the AV1 with an RCA or (preferably) an XLR-cable: front left, front right & centre. Add a sub if you feel you need it. Watch a movie.

Device for DAB: included in the AV1. Internet radio: not sure if that's available; ask Steve_1979.

Streaming from a phone: Blutooth (no Airplay on the AV1).

The main speakers could be Adam Artist 3 or 5 (or plenty of others; just check if they're available in white;-)). As a centre speaker, you could go for the matching Adam Artist 6H; alternatively, use a third Artist 3 or 5 (if you want to lay it on its side, you'll need to turn the tweeter by 90° -- or have that done in the shop for you).

The Nakamichi AV1 is great value and is a well made piece of kit that I'm very pleased with but it doesn't have wifi, internet radio or Spotify but it does have Bluetooth for streaming wirelessly from another device. Another thing to bare in mind with the Nakamichi AV1 is that it's a very new product and while there are firmware updates in the pipeline (the beta version of the first update is already available) it's currently still running the first generation of firmware at the moment which does have a few minor bugs.

IMO a better option for using active speakers with a TV would be the Marantz NR1504 receiver which has pre-outs for connecting active speakers and it also comes with internet radio, Spotify and AirPlay.

Adam Artist active speakers are very good for the price as are the Yamaha HS series of active monitors.

 

[DocG]

The Nakamichi AV1 is great value and is a well made piece of kit that I'm very pleased with but it doesn't have wifi, internet radio or Spotify but it does have Bluetooth for streaming wirelessly from another device. Another thing to bare in mind with the Nakamichi AV1 is that it's a very new product and while there are firmware updates in the pipeline (the beta version of the first update is already available) it's currently still running the first generation of firmware at the moment which does have a few minor bugs.

bugs = bad!

IMO a better option for using active speakers with a TV would be the Marantz NR1504 receiver which has pre-outs for connecting active speakers and it also comes with internet radio, Spotify and AirPlay.

Yes, I thought of that one too. But it only has pre-outs for the front left and front right speakers, not for a centre speaker. It could certainly be a good option if she goes for the phantom centre speaker, as suggested by Dave (if the NR1504 can do that trick). But I don't know if you could use two active main speakers (through the pre-outs) with a passive centre speaker, that uses the Marantz's own amplification. I guess it could be done, but it might need some tweaking...

 

[rainsoothe]

I think actives and all that jazz is a bit complicated and more oriented to the hi-fi hobby-ist. I think the simplest sollution is the best in this case, which would be a reciever, which can be used in a 3 speaker setup for TV purposes, and stereo for music - as Davedotco suggested, if I remember correctly. Either that, or my suggestion of using a soundbase for the TV and a Marantz MCR 610 + Dali Zensor 3 for music - two separate systems, but very user friendly and that do everything that's needed, and some - I think a soundbase solves the "voice" problem, and is an elegant sollution that also takes buying a centre speaker out of the equation. Also, this rules out Yamaha, which I think is **** (except for mixers and studio monitors, ofc ). BUT: auditioning should be the deciding factor, not my opinion. I, personally, would go for soundbase for TV/movies, and separate music system. But, again, that's just me. My second option would be the way of the reciever. Otherwise, stuff gets too complicated.

 

[steve_1979]

IMO a better option for using active speakers with a TV would be the Marantz NR1504 receiver which has pre-outs for connecting active speakers and it also comes with internet radio, Spotify and AirPlay.

Yes, I thought of that one too. But it only has pre-outs for the front left and front right speakers, not for a centre speaker.

The Yamaha RX-V667 has 7.2 pre-out and would be suitable for all active speakers including the centre. They can be picked up for around £100 second hand too.

 

[steve_1979]

I think actives and all that jazz is a bit complicated and more oriented to the hi-fi hobby-ist. I think the simplest sollution is the best in this case, which would be a reciever, which can be used in a 3 speaker setup for TV purposes, and stereo for music

I was thinking the same thing. It would be a bit simpler to setup and would certainly be less 'wirey' than an all active speaker setup.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_737619849]

Hello Everybody

thanks again for presinting all these very detailled and sophisticated setups and solutions!

I think, i will go for the "two devices" setup with a soundbase and the Marantz MC-r610.

My question about the marantz was about the bi-Amping. I am not familiar with Bi-Amping, but since the reciever offers it, my question is: is it an advantage to use speakers that are able for Bi-Amping? The Dali Zensor3 dont, right?

Because i was Thinking, if i am not using the Bi-Amping, i could downsize to the MC-r510 since i do not need a CD Player. The amplifiyer specs are the same except for the fact that it has only two Speaker connections (i do not need more). Or have i Missed out something recarding the differences between the two devices?

So, could you help me with

a) the Bi-Amping issue and eventually recommend speakers with Bi-Amping support?

b) with the idea of switching down to the MC-r510?

Thanks!

Judith

 

[DocG]

Biamping = using separate amplifiers for separate drivers in the speaker. When Marantz state you can biamp with the 610, they are not talking about the 4 speaker binding posts, but about the 'pre-outs': analogue outputs to feed a second power amplifier. You could then e.g. connect the Marantz's speaker binding posts to the 'high frequency' connection on your speaker and the separate power amp's binding posts to the 'low frequency' connection (if your speakers have 4 binding posts, that is).

Would you need that? No. The 'subwoofer output' could be handy though, as you consider a 2.1 setup for music (but both the 610 and the 510 have one of those).

Now what about those 4 speaker binding posts on the 610 then? They are intended for driving 2 pairs of speakers, to play the same music in (one of) two rooms. You can use 2 pairs together if your speakers are easy to drive. Would you need that? Up to you, but IIRC you don't.

So basically, the relevant differences between the 510 and the 610 are:

- CD player.

- tuner (DAB and FM). The 510 has internet radio though (and Spotify; and Airplay).

- 2 versus 1 analogue inputs: up to you to decide if you need 2 of those

And then, there's the speakers...

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_737619849]

Hello DocG,

Thanks for explaining. I do understand how Bi-Amping works (amplifing different frequencies on one speaker, e.g. mid and treble separately driven). My question was: what is the benefit of that and would it be an advantage to use speakers, that support bi-amping?

In that case (if there was a benefit from bi-amping) the Dali Zensor 3 would probably not a good choice, since they don't support it.

Does anybody have experience with that? Thanks!

 

[DocG]

Hello DocG,

Thanks for explaining. I do understand how Bi-Amping works (amplifing different frequencies on one speaker, e.g. mid and treble separately driven). My question was: what is the benefit of that and would it be an advantage to use speakers, that support bi-amping?

In that case (if there was a benefit from bi-amping) the Dali Zensor 3 would probably not a good choice, since they don't support it.

Does anybody have experience with that? Thanks!

Hi Judith,

The thing is: for two-way speakers, bi-amping means you use one stereo amplifier for the tweeters and another for the mid-bass. But the tweeters hardly need any power, so their dedicated amp has little to do, while the other amp does nearly all the work driving the (relatively power- and current-hungry) mid-bass driver. I think the benefit would be marginal at best (and IMO very low VFM, considering you'd have to buy an extra power amplifier). So if you ask me, I wouldn't bother, and just get a good pair of bookshelf speakers. Actually, even if your new speakers were fit for biwiring, I wouldn't do it. That's just my opinion, of course...

Having said that, what options do you have for the speakers? Which brands to you have access to for demo? Can you give us some more information, like: How much space will they have (distance to the backwall and to the sidewalls)? Will you put them on top of a cabinet or shelf? Or on dedicated stands? Do you listen from a comfy sofa? Or sitting at a table? Or walking around doing other things meanwhile?

 

[davedotco]

Hello DocG,

Thanks for explaining. I do understand how Bi-Amping works (amplifing different frequencies on one speaker, e.g. mid and treble separately driven). My question was: what is the benefit of that and would it be an advantage to use speakers, that support bi-amping?

In that case (if there was a benefit from bi-amping) the Dali Zensor 3 would probably not a good choice, since they don't support it.

Does anybody have experience with that? Thanks!

Point of order.

The Doc is, unfortunately, leading you up the garden path and is quite wrong in what he says.

The Marantz units use digital amplifier modules, 2 for each channel. On the MCR610, in 'normal' mode they work together to give around 40 watts per channel into regular 8 ohm speakers, in 'bi-amp' mode a single module drives each of the 4 available speaker outputs, Speaker A left + right and Speaker B left + right. In this case each amplifier is delivering about 20 watts.

When bi-amping the amplifier power is not cumulative, ie 20 watts to the low frequencies and 20 watts to the high frequencies is not 40 watts, it is still 20 watts.

Bi-amp mode simply halves the power available into your chosen speakers, altogether a bad thing, don't do it.

 

[DocG]

Hello DocG,

Thanks for explaining. I do understand how Bi-Amping works (amplifing different frequencies on one speaker, e.g. mid and treble separately driven). My question was: what is the benefit of that and would it be an advantage to use speakers, that support bi-amping?

In that case (if there was a benefit from bi-amping) the Dali Zensor 3 would probably not a good choice, since they don't support it.

Does anybody have experience with that? Thanks!

Point of order.

The Doc is, unfortunately, leading you up the garden path and is quite wrong in what he says.

The Marantz units use digital amplifier modules, 2 for each channel. On the MCR610, in 'normal' mode they work together to give around 40 watts per channel into regular 8 ohm speakers, in 'bi-amp' mode a single module drives each of the 4 available speaker outputs, Speaker A left + right and Speaker B left + right. In this case each amplifier is delivering about 20 watts.

When bi-amping the amplifier power is not cumulative, ie 20 watts to the low frequencies and 20 watts to the high frequencies is not 40 watts, it is still 20 watts.

Bi-amp mode simply halves the power available into your chosen speakers, altogether a bad thing, don't do it.

I stand corrected. I'll shut up now.

 

[rainsoothe]

I don't have any experience with bi-amping, but first of all, most say that improvements are marginal or non-existent, and secondly, theres companies, such as Focal, that don't even make speakers with dual binding posts. I seriously think you shouldn't and needn't bother with any of that.

As for the differences, as explained above, the 510 doesn't do radio, CD and it only has 1 analogue input. I think there's been a recent price drop for the 610, but indeed there's like 100 pounds difference between the two. your choice.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_737619849]

Ah, thanks for clearing out the Bi-Amp issue. Why do they implement it at all??

Regarding the speakers, I had a recommendation for Dali Zensor 3. As for myself (with no competence at all), i had an Eye on the KEF LS50, but i dont know, if the Marantz delivers enaugh power for them. I have read that you have to have a pretty powerful amp for them to sound good. Another Brand i really like is Nubert.

I listen mostly to music sitting on a table or sometimes walking around doing something. I have Bookshelf Speakers in Mind and am planning to have them on speaker stands. I am able to vary the distance to the wall a bit (range from very close to 40 cm away).

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_737619849]

Is it possible to upload a floorplan (.jpg)?

 

[rainsoothe]

Don't know about uploading pics, but i think you need to upload them on a picture hosting site ad copy the link in your post.

As for speaker choice, I don't know, kef ls 50 might be a bit overkill for the MCR marantz. But from this point on, auditioning for yourself should be the deciding factor. Imo, for the Marantz MCR 610 either Dali Zensor 3, Wharfedale 220 or Q Acoustics 3020 should do it. For Kef LS50 (or, alternatives like B&W 685 S2, Focal Aria 906 or XTZ 93.23 mk II), you should look at Naim Unitiqute 2 (or used Naim Unitilite for CD playback), or that new CD player + streamer from Onkyo I think, C-N7050 and Arcam FMJ A19, XTZ A100D3 or Roksan Kandy K2 for amplification.

It would be ideal if you could audition all of this for yourself (if it fits your budget).

 

[Ketan Bharadia]

Biamping tends to be a good thing because because in such a set-up a single amplifier usually powers a specific drive unit. This means the amplifier isn't disturbed by the varying electrical loads of multiple drivers and so tends to do its job better. In the case of the Marantz things may not be so clear-cut because all the power amplifiers share a power supply, so they'll be some limitations imposed there.

I would recommend using either Wharfedale Diamond 220s or the Q Acoustics 3020 standmounters with the MCR610. I don't think you'll make the most of any of the pricier speakers you mention when using them with the Marantz. While the Diamonds could be biamped by the Marantz I wouldn't make that the main reason to buy them. Just have a listen to both speakers and pick the ones that sound best for you.

 

[davedotco]

Generally, passive bi-amping is pretty pointless.
The amplifier still has to drive the passive crossovers so the load remains as complex as ever, no real advantage. Just possibly, if a stereo power amplifier is used for one speaker, the power supply mat have a slightly easier time of it depending on its design.

It may be able to use the bulk of it's output to drive the power hungry bass section rather than have to drive two full range channels, but the advantage is minimal given the cost.

The MCR610 is unusual in that it uses 4 separate amp 'modules', in different configurations, in bi-amp mode you barely get 20 watts per channel, very poor idea in this particular case.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_737619849]

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you (first of all). I have learned a lot from this thread!

I Will definately go for the Marantz 610 and try if I find some place where i can listen to it with eiter Dali Zensor 3, Wharfdale 2020 or the Q Acoustics 3020. No Bi-Amping on any of those

Question: The Marantz has a Sub Out. Would you add an additional Subwoofer? If yes, which one? Passive or Active? I have learned, that if you dont want to have a private Concert in your LIvingroom, just any Sub would do. Do your agree?

Thanks Judith from Switzerland

 

[davedotco]

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you (first of all). I have learned a lot from this thread!

I Will definately go for the Marantz 610 and try if I find some place where i can listen to it with eiter Dali Zensor 3, Wharfdale 2020 or the Q Acoustics 3020. No Bi-Amping on any of those

Question: The Marantz has a Sub Out. Would you add an additional Subwoofer? If yes, which one? Passive or Active? I have learned, that if you dont want to have a private Concert in your LIvingroom, just any Sub would do. Do your agree?

Thanks Judith from Switzerland

The sub output on the MCR610/510 requires an active sub, a passive will connect to the speaker outs and soak up valuable power that you need for your main speakers.

If you are going to use a sub you can consider the smaller Zensor 1, one of the better small speakers around. If you were in the UK it would suggest a BK Gemini with the Zensor 1, a very decent combination.

By the way, what are you doing about the centre channel for movies?

 

[rainsoothe]

Imo, Zensor 3 have enough bass, I don't think you should bother with a sub - but i forgot how big your room is. Also, I find the Zensor 3 to be way better then the Wharfedales and the Q Acoustics, at least when paired with Marantz. But horses for courses.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_737619849]

Hello davetotco

I will solve the Movie Issue, as suggested, with a soundbar. The recommended Q Acoustics or a Yamaha YSP-2500.

About the sub: My living/dinigroom is pretty big: About 40 - 50 square meters (i dont know exactly). Do the sensor deliver enaugh power for this?

Thanks again!

 

[davedotco]

Hello davetotco

I will solve the Movie Issue, as suggested, with a soundbar. The recommended Q Acoustics or a Yamaha YSP-2500.

About the sub: My living/dinigroom is pretty big: About 40 - 50 square meters (i dont know exactly). Do the sensor deliver enaugh power for this?

Thanks again!

Thats a big space, I didn't realise. Forget the Zensor 1s in a space like that, the Zenzor 3s will be pretty marginal too.

I think you may need to look at floorstanders to cope with the space, it is a power issue, not amplifier power, acoustic power.

To produce a suitable volume at your listening position the system needs to produce a certain amount of acoustic power, the louder you listen or the bigger the room the more acoustic power you need.

Acoustic power is determined by two things, the power of the amplifier and the sensitivity of the spreakers. If you use the MCG610/510 (essentially the same unit, CD player apart) then you have around 40 watts into 8 ohms, not a lot by modern standards. To make the most of it you need speakers of highish sensitivity and in general that means bigger speakers.

Speaker sensitivity is rated as dB/watt at 1 metre for comparitive purposes with average sensitivity around 87dB, the Zensor 3 is around average, as is the Zensor 5. The bigger Zensor 7 is roughly 3dB more sensitive at 90db, this might not seem like a big difference but it is the equivalent of doubling the power of your amplifier.

A speaker I would be tempted to look at is the Q Acoustics 2050i, which is even more sensitive at around 92dB and should do a decent job of filling your space, they will make the available amplifier power seem much greater (about 3x) than the Zensor 3s. Only downside is that these speakers need a little bit of space around them, so not so good if they have to go close to a wall.

 

[rainsoothe]

Well she did say the system will not be running loudly, but yes, 40sq meters is a pretty big space. So Judith, you really need to audition. And please add this to your list:
-streamer: Pioneer N50A or, for cheaper, Onkyo C-N7050
-amp and speakers: (1) Creek Evo 50A + Q Acoustics 2050i (or whatever the new version is, 3050 perhaps - or Concept 20 for standmounts); (2) Arcam FMJ A19 + B&W 683 s2 (or 685 s2 or Kef LS50 for standouts); (3) XTZ A100D3 + XTZ 99.36 (or XTZ 99.26 mkII, XTZ 93.23 miKI or B&W 685 s2 for standmounts) .
I know it seems like a lot of info and stuff to do, but trust me, patience is really worth it with hi-fi.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_737619849]

OMG! Do we have to start all over again?

Very important here: I really don't listen to loud Music since i have very "sensitive" neighbours.

If i had to evaluate a new System, here once more my particullar needs:

Streaming Internet Radio, Streaming Music from My Phone or my NAS (FLAC) by wire connection (WIFI not important) . would be nice If it has also an FM Tuner. No urge for a CD Player but if it is built in, no problem.

Speakers: i dont have space (and my husband does not want) Floorstanders. But a bigger size of Standmounters will be ok.

Thank you so much!