Add sub to hifi system

[davedotco]

I know that this is partly semantics, but hi-fidelity should imply some attempt to reproduce the original musical performance as it happens. Of course many recordings never existed as such an event, but there are recordings that do, and they can be used to evaluate the fidelity (accuracy) of the system. In my mind this is what hi-fi equipment is supposed to do.

However it is a basic tenet of modern hi-fi, and this forum in particular, that fidelity is no longer of any great importance so long as the results are pleasing to the buyer.

Modern popular music has, in recent years, undergone several fundamental changes, primarily to a heavier bass driven sound. The music has no natural sound, and the reference has become, in most cases the sound of the club or dancefloor.

By it's very nature, hi-fi equipment is not very good at reproducing these realities, and we get more and more threads, such as this one, where conventional hi-fi fails to 'cut the mustard'. The fact that so much budget and mid-fi equipment is over-hyped, descrbed as 'punchy', 'exciting' or 'thrilling', when in reality it is nothing of the sort, leads to a sense of confusion and dis-satisfaction among the users. When a car stereo is preferred to a 'proper' hi-fi, you know something is very wrong.

 

[Coll]

Try blocking the ports on the speakers and see how you like the sound then. If you like the new sound but find there is not enough bass then get a subwoofer.

thanks for the suggestion. What effect does this have on the bass? More punchy less boomy? What material would you suggest using?

Yes blocking the ports will reduce boom and give a tighter bass.
When I set up my subwoofer I blocked the ports on my speakers and then used a sealed sub which in addition to giving more bass gives cleaner bass. Sealed speakers always give the best non booty bass in my opinion.

 

[Biff]

I know that this is partly semantics, but hi-fidelity should imply some attempt to reproduce the original musical performance as it happens. Of course many recordings never existed as such an event, but there are recordings that do, and they can be used to evaluate the fidelity (accuracy) of the system. In my mind this is what hi-fi equipment is supposed to do.

However it is a basic tenet of modern hi-fi, and this forum in particular, that fidelity is no longer of any great importance so long as the results are pleasing to the buyer.

Modern popular music has, in recent years, undergone several fundamental changes, primarily to a heavier bass driven sound. The music has no natural sound, and the reference has become, in most cases the sound of the club or dancefloor.

By it's very nature, hi-fi equipment is not very good at reproducing these realities, and we get more and more threads, such as this one, where conventional hi-fi fails to 'cut the mustard'. The fact that so much budget and mid-fi equipment is over-hyped, descrbed as 'punchy', 'exciting' or 'thrilling', when in reality it is nothing of the sort, leads to a sense of confusion and dis-satisfaction among the users. When a car stereo is preferred to a 'proper' hi-fi, you know something is very wrong.

I prefer my home setup by far over the car stereo. There is just the one aspect the car stereo wins for me and that's tighter and punchier. After listening to the same album on both systems it just highlighted the softer bass of the home setup and I came here looking for answers.

 

[Biff]

Try blocking the ports on the speakers and see how you like the sound then. If you like the new sound but find there is not enough bass then get a subwoofer.

thanks for the suggestion. What effect does this have on the bass? More punchy less boomy? What material would you suggest using?

Yes blocking the ports will reduce boom and give a tighter bass. When I set up my subwoofer I blocked the ports on my speakers and then used a sealed sub which in addition to giving more bass gives cleaner bass. Sealed speakers always give the best non booty bass in my opinion.

Thanks I'll look into this. Sounds like it could be a decent cheap solution. Is there any danger to the speaker by doing this?

 

[Biff]

In my experience, subs only really work with cinema. Amp? Mixing? I am sure there is a good reason but I turn my sub off for music, having front towers there is ample bass. Room acoustics is probably your enemy here not unlike my own. I use bass traps and use a DSP unit but never a complete answer. If u sit at different positions and the sound changes dramatically, I would say the room is limiting the overall sound and little to be done.

Thanks, not gonna add a sub then. Yh the room could probably do with some bass traps. May try that at some point as it does get a bit boomy. Moving around the room doesn't change the sound much though.

 

[davedotco]

I know that this is partly semantics, but hi-fidelity should imply some attempt to reproduce the original musical performance as it happens. Of course many recordings never existed as such an event, but there are recordings that do, and they can be used to evaluate the fidelity (accuracy) of the system. In my mind this is what hi-fi equipment is supposed to do.

However it is a basic tenet of modern hi-fi, and this forum in particular, that fidelity is no longer of any great importance so long as the results are pleasing to the buyer.

Modern popular music has, in recent years, undergone several fundamental changes, primarily to a heavier bass driven sound. The music has no natural sound, and the reference has become, in most cases the sound of the club or dancefloor.

By it's very nature, hi-fi equipment is not very good at reproducing these realities, and we get more and more threads, such as this one, where conventional hi-fi fails to 'cut the mustard'. The fact that so much budget and mid-fi equipment is over-hyped, descrbed as 'punchy', 'exciting' or 'thrilling', when in reality it is nothing of the sort, leads to a sense of confusion and dis-satisfaction among the users. When a car stereo is preferred to a 'proper' hi-fi, you know something is very wrong.

I prefer my home setup by far over the car stereo. There is just the one aspect the car stereo wins for me and that's tighter and punchier. After listening to the same album on both systems it just highlighted the softer bass of the home setup and I came here looking for answers.

That the answer you are looking for may be best obtained by thinking and looking 'outside the box'.

It is not meant as a putdown, just that it sounds rather like you are trying to get a performance from your setup that they were never really designed to deliver. I happen to rather like the Zensor 5s, but tight, punchy bass is not really it's forte, it really offers a warm sound with some weight which is what the mainstream prefers.

Your amplifier has similar characteristics too, and combinations of this type are very popular, both with the buyers and general hi-fi groupthink. But some users (myself included) find this kind of performance somewhat lacking, there are alternatives but, to coin a phrase, you need to think differently.

 

[jonathanRD]

The alcoves are along the 5.5m wall and speakers are firing across the short distance. I realise they'd be better over the longer distance with some space behind the sitting position but there's just no other way to set the room up.

Dare I say it maybe some bookshelf active speakers may provide the punchy sound you crave for, and maybe if there is room along your 5.5 wall to locate a sub, that might be an option.

If a more powerful amp doesn't work, you can start considering other options such as replacing both your amp and speakers.

My dining room has similar dimensions with alcoves, if I had to have speakers firing out across the 3.5m short distance, I would be looking at active bookshelf speakers maybe with a sub if I had the room.

Come on Davedotco - suggest some 'thinking differently' solutions that cost the equivalent of the marantz/zensor 5 combination*smile*

 

[davedotco]

The alcoves are along the 5.5m wall and speakers are firing across the short distance. I realise they'd be better over the longer distance with some space behind the sitting position but there's just no other way to set the room up.

Dare I say it maybe some bookshelf active speakers may provide the punchy sound you crave for, and maybe if there is room along your 5.5 wall to locate a sub, that might be an option.

If a more powerful amp doesn't work, you can start considering other options such as replacing both your amp and speakers.

My dining room has similar dimensions with alcoves, if I had to have speakers firing out across the 3.5m short distance, I would be looking at active bookshelf speakers maybe with a sub if I had the room.

Come on Davedotco - suggest some 'thinking differently' solutions that cost the equivalent of the marantz/zensor 5 combination*smile*

You know the obvious answer, I'm bored with taking the flack for making the obvious suggestion.

However, for the OP, my initial suggestion would be to try and replace the amp with one without the artificial warmth and with better bass control. First choice would be the Creek 50 with the possibility of one of the small Exposure integrated as an option.

 

[jonathanRD]

Try everything suggested in this thread that won't cost you any money up front.

Bungs, positioning, bass traps (cushions/pillows), tone controls, demo more powerful amps, and possibly you could try to demo some bookshelf speakers too.

Do you have a local dealer you can demo some stuff and then get them on home demo? Take your time to try the suggestions/options. IMO the most important advice is to demo at home in your room.

See if anything helps to improve things, if not come back for more advice.

 

[Coll]

Try blocking the ports on the speakers and see how you like the sound then. If you like the new sound but find there is not enough bass then get a subwoofer.

thanks for the suggestion. What effect does this have on the bass? More punchy less boomy? What material would you suggest using?

Yes blocking the ports will reduce boom and give a tighter bass. When I set up my subwoofer I blocked the ports on my speakers and then used a sealed sub which in addition to giving more bass gives cleaner bass. Sealed speakers always give the best non booty bass in my opinion.

Thanks I'll look into this. Sounds like it could be a decent cheap solution. Is there any danger to the speaker by doing this?

No it will not damage the speakers at all if it did I would not have done it my self.

Use some foam or T shirts anything soft will do

 

[Coll]

Try everything suggested in this thread that won't cost you any money up front.

Bungs, positioning, bass traps (cushions/pillows), tone controls, demo more powerful amps, and possibly you could try to demo some bookshelf speakers too.

Do you have a local dealer you can demo some stuff and then get them on home demo? Take your time to try the suggestions/options. IMO the most important advice is to demo at home in your room.

See if anything helps to improve things, if not come back for more advice.

Totally agree, its easy to spend money but not always the answer.

Done it myself many times in the past.

 

[Biff]

Many thanks for all the advice I've got better perspective on this now and have more realistic expectations of the amp/speakers I have. I think the room would definitely benefit from bass traps but space is tight. I may try the bungs. May upgrade to a better amp in the future but that's a way off . I would consider swapping speakers for Zensor 3s as whathifi say they're a good match for the 6005, but they're rear ported - probably not good when sitting in front of alcoves? Thoughts? Some say they aren't keen on Marantz/Dali combo?

 

[davedotco]

Many thanks for all the advice I've got better perspective on this now and have more realistic expectations of the amp/speakers I have. I think the room would definitely benefit from bass traps but space is tight. I may try the bungs. May upgrade to a better amp in the future but that's a way off . I would consider swapping speakers for Zensor 3s as whathifi say they're a good match for the 6005, but they're rear ported - probably not good when sitting in front of alcoves? Thoughts?

Have a bigger diameter bass driver which tends to make them fatter and slower than the '5s which use 2 of the smaller units. You can not be 100% sure until you try, but most likely a step in the wrong direction. I still think you are 'barking up the wrong tree' here, the amplifier is most likely the weakest link and replacing it with one with a more neutral balance and better control is the better solution.

On a more general point, despite what you read, the position of the bass port does not really have an effect on speaker positioning and bass response, unless you are planning to place them so close to the wall as to restrict air movement.

 

[Biff]

Many thanks for all the advice I've got better perspective on this now and have more realistic expectations of the amp/speakers I have. I think the room would definitely benefit from bass traps but space is tight. I may try the bungs. May upgrade to a better amp in the future but that's a way off . I would consider swapping speakers for Zensor 3s as whathifi say they're a good match for the 6005, but they're rear ported - probably not good when sitting in front of alcoves? Thoughts?

Have a bigger diameter bass driver which tends to make them fatter and slower than the '5s which use 2 of the smaller units. You can not be 100% sure until you try, but most likely a step in the wrong direction. I still think you are 'barking up the wrong tree' here, the amplifier is most likely the weakest link and replacing it with one with a more neutral balance and better control is the better solution.

On a more general point, despite what you read, the position of the bass port does not really have an effect on speaker positioning and bass response, unless you are planning to place them so close to the wall as to restrict air movement.

Thanks Dave I'll keep the 5s then and upgrade the amp when I can afford a better one (I'll be back ) and enjoy what I have for now. Learned a lot from this thread. Many thanks to all who chimed in.

 

[Coll]

Block the ports and see how you like the sound it will cost nothing

 

[davedotco]

Block the ports and see how you like the sound it will cost nothing

If you are going to try some different things, I suggest you try placing the speakers so that they fire down the length of the room and are at least 3 feet from the wall behind. Make sure that the listening position is well clear of the walls too, and adjust from there.

I am aware that such positioning may not be practical from the point of view of living arrangements, but it might give you a good idea of what is possible from this setup in optimum conditions.

For what it is worth, when I tried the Zensors I found I got the best results with a Cambridge 651 series power amp, neither the newer CXA series amplifiers nor the Arcam A19 came close.

 

[Biff]

Block the ports and see how you like the sound it will cost nothing

If you are going to try some different things, I suggest you try placing the speakers so that they fire down the length of the room and are at least 3 feet from the wall behind. Make sure that the listening position is well clear of the walls too, and adjust from there.

I am aware that such positioning may not be practical from the point of view of living arrangements, but it might give you a good idea of what is possible from this setup in optimum conditions.

For what it is worth, when I tried the Zensors I found I got the best results with a Cambridge 651 series power amp, neither the newer CXA series amplifiers nor the Arcam A19 came close.

I'll definitely set them up like that to hear how they sound. Should be interesting.

When the time's right I'll come back for some amp advice but money's a bit tight at the mo..unlike the bass I'm getting haha.

Cheers