Add sub to hifi system

[Biff]

Hi all I have a Marantz pm6005 and Dali Zensor 5 speakers. I'm pretty happy with the sound I get BUT the bass is soft and undefined - it's there and ok when watching films but for music it just doesn't standout and as I mainly got this system for listening to music, the lack of definition in the bass is not doing it for me. I'm thinking of either changing speakers (considering Tannoy Rev xt 6f) or adding a sub to the system (considering warfdale diamond 150). I'm not sure how I would connect a sub to the pm6005 or if it would integrate into the setup. The pm6005 has two sets of speaker outputs so I'm thinking A for the Dalis and B for the sub?

I'm a bit worried a sub might overwhelm the room with bass sounds. Also concerned about potential phase issues.

I'd probably rather add a sub to the system as it'd be cheaper, but only if it'd intergrate nicely and sound great for music. The Tannoys do get great reviews though but would the pm6005 run them ok/pair nicely. Any thoughts/advice please?

 

[jonathanRD]

Hi all I have a Marantz pm6005 and Dali Zensor 5 speakers. I'm pretty happy with the sound I get BUT the bass is soft and undefined. I'm thinking of either changing speakers (considering Tannoy Rev xt 6f) or adding a sub to the system (considering warfdale diamond 150). I'm not sure how I would connect a sub to the pm6005 or if it would integrate into the setup. The pm6005 has two sets of speaker outputs so I'm thinking A for the Dalis and B for the sub?

I'm a bit worried a sub might overwhelm the room with bass sounds. Also concerned about potential phase issues.

I'd probably rather add a sub to the system as it'd be cheaper, but only if it'd intergrate nicely and sound great. The Tannoys do get great reviews though but would the pm6005 run them ok? Any thoughts/advice please?

I don't know much about the Zensor 5's, and I'm not sure adding a warfdale 150 sub is the answer. You need to work out why your bass is soft and undefined. How big is your room, and where are the speakers placed (how far from walls)? Have you tried experimenting with positioning?

By all means have a listen to the Tannoys, but get them home to demo with your amp. You could also try another more powerful amp that may drive your Dali's better.

 

[Biff]

Thanks for reply Jonathan. I have tried different speaker positions. It doesn't help the bass and there's only one place they can go in this room. It's not a big room which is why I'm a bit worried about overwhelming bass. Some reviews of the 5s do say the bass is a bit undefined. I partly chose these speakers as I was thinking I didn't want loads of bass in a small-ish room but for music listening they just aren't doing it for me bass-wise. For films they're great. As I said, there's plenty of bass but it's soft/undefined.

 

[muljao]

Have you tried using the amps tone controls.There is often a bit of snobbiness about this feature, but at times they can be a real benefit?

 

[Biff]

Have you tried using the amps tone controls.There is often a bit of snobbiness about this feature, but at times they can be a real benefit?

yes I've tried turning up the bass and there's plenty...actually too much, but it's still undefined.

 

[insider9]

I would suggest that the pairing although very popular isn't the best. Personally not a big fan of Dali+Marantz. As ex Dali owner (both standmounts and floorstanders) lack of bass definition isn't something I'd associate with their house sound. You could be better of with Zensor 3 or 7's due to size of the driver though.

As previously mentioned the positioning is key. If you're unable to move speakers for best bass definition then the next best thing would be to buy a pair of speakers that will work well in the space you've got. Unfortunately you can only go so far in theory and home demo would be best.

Tannoys you mentioned are different speaker to Dalis unfortunately not in the ways you're looking for or to an extent you're looking for imho.

EDIT
Zensor 3 and 7 would add more bass but without right positioning it wouldn't necessarily improve the definition.

 

[davedotco]

The issue is simply the 'character' of your amp and speakers. Neither are exactly 'tight and punchy'.

You may be able to improve matters with better speaker placement but the Dalis may end up too far into the room to be practical.

If you want to tighten things up, change the amp for something like a Creek or an Exposure, both will control the speakers better and improve bass clarity and definition.

A subwoofer will not address your issue, a cheap sub will probably make things worse.

 

[Biff]

Valuable info, thanks all for the replies. Good to know that adding a sub is not the answer. I guess the amp/speaker combo is not the best. One or the other has to change. Probably a more lively amp? I'll look into those recommendations.

Thanks to all again for the help.

 

[jonathanRD]

What size is your room Biff?

 

[Biff]

I would suggest that the pairing although very popular isn't the best. Personally not a big fan of Dali+Marantz. As ex Dali owner (both standmounts and floorstanders) lack of bass definition isn't something I'd associate with their house sound. You could be better of with Zensor 3 or 7's due to size of the driver though.

As previously mentioned the positioning is key. If you're unable to move speakers for best bass definition then the next best thing would be to buy a pair of speakers that will work well in the space you've got. Unfortunately you can only go so far in theory and home demo would be best.

Tannoys you mentioned are different speaker to Dalis unfortunately not in the ways you're looking for or to an extent you're looking for imho.

EDIT Zensor 3 and 7 would add more bass but without right positioning it wouldn't necessarily improve the definition.

i don't understand why positioning makes such a big difference. What would you recommend I try?

 

[Biff]

What size is your room Biff?

its about 7m x 4.5m and slightly oddly shaped. The speakers sit in front of alcoves which probably doesn't help but there's no other way I can set the room up.

 

[Biff]

What size is your room Biff?

Was quite a way off in my guesstimate. Just measured. It's 5.5x3.5m

 

[insider9]

I would suggest that the pairing although very popular isn't the best. Personally not a big fan of Dali+Marantz. As ex Dali owner (both standmounts and floorstanders) lack of bass definition isn't something I'd associate with their house sound. You could be better of with Zensor 3 or 7's due to size of the driver though.

As previously mentioned the positioning is key. If you're unable to move speakers for best bass definition then the next best thing would be to buy a pair of speakers that will work well in the space you've got. Unfortunately you can only go so far in theory and home demo would be best.

Tannoys you mentioned are different speaker to Dalis unfortunately not in the ways you're looking for or to an extent you're looking for imho.

EDIT Zensor 3 and 7 would add more bass but without right positioning it wouldn't necessarily improve the definition.

i don't understand why positioning makes such a big difference. What would you recommend I try? 

Apologies, just realised Zensors 5 are actually front ported. The positioning would not have that much impact in this case. Zensors 3 I had last were back ported and like any other back ported speaker it meant bass could be tuned by positioning of speakers in relation to back wall.

My other point though still stands which is pairing. Davedotco mentioned some amps you would have more success with what you're trying to achieve.

 

[jonathanRD]

What size is your room Biff?

Was quite a way off in my guesstimate. Just measured. It's 5.5x3.5m

Sorry more questions, are the alcoves along the 5.5 wall or the 3.5m wall? so are the speakers firing across a short distance (3.5) or close together firing down the long 5.5 length?

And what type of music are you listening too where the bass is not as good as you want?

 

[Biff]

What size is your room Biff?

Was quite a way off in my guesstimate. Just measured. It's 5.5x3.5m

Sorry more questions, are the alcoves along the 5.5 wall or the 3.5m wall? so are the speakers firing across a short distance (3.5) or close together firing down the long 5.5 length?

And what type of music are you listening too where the bass is not as good as you want?

The alcoves are along the 5.5m wall and speakers are firing across the short distance. I realise they'd be better over the longer distance with some space behind the sitting position but there's just no other way to set the room up.

I listen to quite a mixture of music. Rock, some jazz and blues, pop. I love me some Arctic Monkies. Their latest album AM is mixed really punchy bass-wise and sounds exciting on the car stereo but on this system it just doesn't excite. From the advice here it seems a more lively amp is needed. Any other recommendations?

 

[jonathanRD]

What size is your room Biff?

Sorry more questions, are the alcoves along the 5.5 wall or the 3.5m wall? so are the speakers firing across a short distance (3.5) or close together firing down the long 5.5 length?

And what type of music are you listening too where the bass is not as good as you want?

The alcoves are along the 5.5m wall and speakers are firing across the short distance. I realise they'd be better over the longer distance with some space behind the sitting position but there's just no other way to set the room up.

I listen to quite a mixture of music. Rock, some jazz and blues, pop. I love me some Arctic Monkies. Their latest album AM is mixed really punchy bass-wise and sounds exciting on the car stereo but on this system it just doesn't excite. From the advice here it seems a more lively amp is needed. Any other recommendations?

Dare I say it maybe some bookshelf active speakers may provide the punchy sound you crave for, and maybe if there is room along your 5.5 wall to locate a sub, that might be an option.

But, if it was me, I would go along to a local dealer (assuming you have one close enough) and demo some more powerful amps. And then get one home to demo with your Zensor 5's in your room. Maybe stretch your budget a bit, just to get a more powerful (and expensive) amp on home demo. If this works, then at least you know how to fix the problem whilst keeping the Zensor's, and this will give you the confidence to look at 2nd hand amps where you can't demo, but pay a lot less.

If a more powerful amp doesn't work, you can start considering other options such as replacing both your amp and speakers.

Just to add, although I'm not rstricted by my room dimensions, I've just upgraded from a 38w 2 channel amp to 100w mono power amplifiers, and using the same floorstanding speakers, that punch and weight to bass, drums etc, is palpable.

 

[insider9]

I love me some Arctic Monkies. Their latest album AM is mixed really punchy bass-wise and sounds exciting on the car stereo but on this system it just doesn't excite. From the advice here it seems a more lively amp is needed. Any other recommendations?

Perhaps comparing against a car stereo isn't the ideal scenario. Still if you could expand on what makes the car stereo more exciting you'd get a better advice. Is it only the bass? Is it how surrounded with the sound you feel? Is it the volume level?

Car stereos to be fully appreciated are usually listened to at a high volume to cover ambient noise. I stopped listening to car stereo a while ago for that reason. My ears were getting to big of a hit.

 

[Coll]

Try blocking the ports on the speakers and see how you like the sound then. If you like the new sound but find there is not enough bass then get a subwoofer.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

In my experience, subs only really work with cinema. Amp? Mixing? I am sure there is a good reason but I turn my sub off for music, having front towers there is ample bass. Room acoustics is probably your enemy here not unlike my own. I use bass traps and use a DSP unit but never a complete answer. If u sit at different positions and the sound changes dramatically, I would say the room is limiting the overall sound and little to be done.

 

[Biff]

Try blocking the ports on the speakers and see how you like the sound then. If you like the new sound but find there is not enough bass then get a subwoofer.

thanks for the suggestion. What effect does this have on the bass? More punchy less boomy? What material would you suggest using?

 

[Biff]

I love me some Arctic Monkies. Their latest album AM is mixed really punchy bass-wise and sounds exciting on the car stereo but on this system it just doesn't excite. From the advice here it seems a more lively amp is needed. Any other recommendations?

Perhaps comparing against a car stereo isn't the ideal scenario. Still if you could expand on what makes the car stereo more exciting you'd get a better advice. Is it only the bass? Is it how surrounded with the sound you feel? Is it the volume level?

Car stereos to be fully appreciated are usually listened to at a high volume to cover ambient noise. I stopped listening to car stereo a while ago for that reason. My ears were getting to big of a hit.

I'm no expert - it just sounds punchier and more exciting and Yh higher volume definitely helps liven things up.

 

[Biff]

Have you tried using the amps tone controls.There is often a bit of snobbiness about this feature, but at times they can be a real benefit?

ok tried this again - last time I found it made the room a bit boomy so went back to source direct but this time I've just added a wee bit of bass. I have to say this is a nice improvement...gives it slight bit more punch without too much boom and warms the whole sound up. It's a much more satisfying listening experience now. The bass still isn't great but I think I can live with it for now.

Also had an unexpected upgrade in another way a couple of days ago - these speakers had never been turned up past pretty low volumes since I bought them new. Fews days back I cranked them to pretty loud for a half hour. Now back at my usual listening volume I'm noticing better imaging and a slightly livelier more dynamic sound. It's quite an upgrade! I'm thinking the speakers had not been properly run-in! What do y'all think of this - plausible? I'm sure I'm not imagining it! So for the turning of a couple of knobs I've had two decent upgrades in the last few days...completely free . Interested to hear thoughts on this....

 

[insider9]

Have you tried using the amps tone controls.There is often a bit of snobbiness about this feature, but at times they can be a real benefit?

ok tried this again - last time I found it made the room a bit boomy so went back to source direct but this time I've just added a wee bit of bass. I have to say this is a nice improvement...gives it slight bit more punch without too much boom and warms the whole sound up. It's a much more satisfying listening experience now. The bass still isn't great but I think I can live with it for now. 

Also had an unexpected upgrade in another way a couple of days ago - these speakers had never been turned up past pretty low volumes since I bought them new. Fews days back I cranked them to pretty loud for a half hour. Now back at my usual listening volume I'm noticing better imaging and a slightly livelier more dynamic sound. It's quite an upgrade! I'm thinking the speakers had not been properly run-in! What do y'all think of this - plausible? I'm sure I'm not imagining it! So for the turning of a couple of knobs I've had two decent upgrades in the last few days...completely free . Interested to hear thoughts on this....

Some gear needs to be run at higher volumes to get the best out of. It may be yours is. Bass will always be more prominent with increase in volume.

 

[Biff]

[/quote] Some gear needs to be run at higher volumes to get the best out of. It may be yours is. Bass will always be more prominent with increase in volume.

[/quote]

I'm noticing improvements even at lower volumes.

 

[insider9]

 

Some gear needs to be run at higher volumes to get the best out of. It may be yours is. Bass will always be more prominent with increase in volume.

[/quote]

I'm noticing improvements even at lower volumes. 
[/quote]
That's good to hear!