Add preamp or replace amp?

[hybridauth_Facebook_10203552373284939]

Hey all..i guess some of you will have seen my other posts where I'm wrestling to get the sound of my system right in my conservatory. In summary the acoustics of the room mean I need to increase the bass level somehow. My current setup (see below) has no tone controls. Hence I tried adding a sub, sort of worked, but It niggled me that my speakers should be able to deliver the lower freq (down to 30Hz) on their own. Also my power amp should be sufficient at 100w per channel. I tried a 25 year audiolab 8000A as a preamp and on its on and, with the bass at +3db, it really helped and confirmed the speakers could deliver the bass if it was present at the source. Hence my shortlisted options are a) add a preamp (CA don't seem to make one) , b) swap the kit out for an audiolab 8000C/P or 8000S/P or c) get something like a Marantz PM8005 integrated amp.

 

[matt49]

One option worth considering is a DSPeaker Anti-mode. This will give you the ability to tune the bass to a certain extent. It's also a DAC and pre-amp: the hifi equivalent of a swiss army knife.

But ... it may be that your room has a big bass suck-out, in which case EQ is to be avoided. By correcting a suck-out using EQ, you may achieve a flattish FR but you may also stress your amp. The same applies to analog tone controls.

This is why a sub may after all be the best option. Subs are designed to provide a flat FR under around 80-100Hz without getting stressed in the process.

 

[Covenanter]

How big is your conservatory? How loud do you want it?

100W per channel in a conservatory! I'd have thought your biggest problem would be keeping the glass in place.

Chris

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10203552373284939]

Ha! Yes I know it's seems overkill. I guess the issue is the high and mids are magnified by the environment and the bass seeps away. The room is about 25-30SQM. My current amp (and speakers) can deliver the bass but at a volume which makes the mid and treble uncomfortable. Being able to nudge up the lower freq 3 - 6 db really helps. I tried a sub and, whilst it helps, I keep coming back to the fact that the 25 year old audiolab amp is able to provide the required depth without one.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10203552373284939]

Does anyone on here have an Audiolab 8000 pre / power setup?

 

[davedotco]

I am not normally a big fan of such things, but given the circumstances maybe a pro-grade graphic equaliser is what you need.

Something like this....

Cheap enough and simple to use, a wide band bass boost and 'notch out' any troublesome frequencies.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10203552373284939]

Now that is a beast I could see myself never sitting still though; be up tweaking for every song. Maybe a 2nd hand preamp from Rotel, Audiolab etc woudl suffice.

 

[Covenanter]

Or maybe just accept that a conservatory is not the place to listen to hifi?

Chris

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10203552373284939]

Well if it gets moved to the main living it won't matter what it sounds like as I won't get to listen to it :-(

 

[davedotco]

Now that is a beast I could see myself never sitting still though; be up tweaking for every song. Maybe a 2nd hand preamp from Rotel, Audiolab etc woudl suffice.

The equaliser pictured above costs less than £120 new, far more flexible than any preamp.

If you are a 'tweeker', set it up then hide it away, out of sight, out of mind.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10203552373284939]

I'm sure it's great but probably not going to fit in with my set-up or get past the missus! Maybe if I had an AV cupboard or the likes it could be hidden away.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10203552373284939]

So I think I'm going to add the matching integrated amp, CAMBRIDGE AUDIO AZUR 651A, to the system which will act as a preamp with tone controls. It would also take the system up from 100W per channel to 175W if I bi-amp (good idea?).

Any thoughts before I commit

 

[davedotco]

Firstly the graphic will be far more effective than any tone controls, but that is your choice.

Secondly, bi-amping does not increase the effective power, probably will make little difference, the passive crossovers are still in circuit and will have far more effect on the sound than the extra amplifier.

Which brings me on to a completely, totally radical solution.

Put aside the power amp and the Tannoys and replace them with a pair of Genelec 8330 monitors. Not only are they fully active monitors of exceptional quality, but for around £1250 you get both the spreakers and a complete hardware/software package, including a measurement microphone to perform full computerised room equalisation.

If there is a real solution to your issues at an even remotely sensible price, this is probably it.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10203552373284939]

They do look interesting but I'm not wanting to try and sell the Tannoys. It's the only part of the system I bought new, so will take a large hit, plus shipping, eBay fees tc. would be expensive..

Ok I maybe don't fully understand the pros and cons of bi-amping. My thought was the integrated amp would be wired to the HF on the Tannoys and the power amp to the LF. Is this an accepted practice? Does it bring any benefits?

 

[davedotco]

They do look interesting but I'm not wanting to try and sell the Tannoys. It's the only part of the system I bought new, so will take a large hit, plus shipping, eBay fees tc. would be expensive..

Ok I maybe don't fully understand the pros and cons of bi-amping. My thought was the integrated amp would be wired to the HF on the Tannoys and the power amp to the LF. Is this an accepted practice? Does it bring any benefits?

Yes, this is accepted practice.

But no, it will bring little or no benefit.

Some people believe passive bi-amping to make a worthwhile improvement, in my experience this is not usually the case. Once you get over the excitement of having two power amplifiers in your system, with all that 'extra' power, you will find it really makes little or no difference.

 

[jmjones]

Hi David,

I think you may be "barking up the wrong tree" a little. Changing your amplification, bi-amping, etc. just isn't going to give you a better source of a lot of base. Some of the other suggestions - equalisers, tone controls, subs or changing the speakers for something that thunders just might.

By the way, I used to run Audiolab amplification years ago - an 8000s and later a pre/power set up. I liked them for their clarity, not bass output. Some would call them clinical.

Have you heard the Tannoys in other circumstances? You may be needing a different sonic character.

 

[Mr beck]

Hi David,

I think these guys are all on the ball with their advice, I had terrible trouble with brightness with my tannoys I thought about changing my amp and in the end demoed other speakers with my amp and I must say my situation has completely changed for the better. The trouble is with your speakers is the rear bass port, they just don't give the deep bass you are requiring which all in all allows the midrange to dominate, plus your acoustic situation isn't helping. You could spend loads of money on pre amps and EQ and so on and still be in the same spot. Maybe try and get a demo with your amp and different speakers, preferably with front bass ports. I did this and I'm happy as Larry, it cost me a hole load more money but by only changing one part of my set up. I'd try the tannoy XT6.

I hope this helps buddy.

David

 

[Vladimir]

Precision 6.2 LE go down to 31Hz but at -6dB from reference.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10203552373284939]

Mr Beck

Thanks and yes it would be difficult and expensive trying to source something else. Part of the reason I got into the situation was the difficulty in auditioning locally. There is no way I'd buy another pair with out hearing them at home first. As Vlad points out the freq response (on paper anyway) of these speakers is low at 31Hz albeit at -6db (which is lower than the XT6 and XT8). So if I can notch up the low freq by +6db don't we get a good solution . Or is this too simplistic.

 

[Mr beck]

Good morning David, most retailers allow you to demo speakers in your own home Richer sounds are one of many. I've said in resent posts I demoed the precision 6.2 and the xt6 and xt8 and the 8's come out top in warmth, bass. (To suit my room) The xt6 where much better in bass than the precision,s for what ever reasons. But there are so many other speakers (some of these guys have mentioned) I'm only saying about the tannoys because they have a specific sound and if you're like me it's a sound that suits your ears. Also I guess your amp plays a part in matching your set up and sound.

david

 

[splasher]

Hi David,

I have the cheaper DC6TSE speakers (same drivers, cheaper boxes). My experience of these is that if you point them directly at your listening position, the treble dominates (which to the ear is similar to the sound lacking midrange and bass). I have mine in the classic 7ft ish triangle but with the speakers facing flat forward so my listening position is off axis for both speakers and the sound is transformed.

My other thought is whether fabric blinds or similar to "soften" the room might help dramatically, not only with the sound balance but with unwanted reverb.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10203552373284939]

Thanks Splasher....some good tips there

 

[matt49]

As Vlad points out the freq response (on paper anyway) of these speakers is low at 31Hz albeit at -6db (which is lower than the XT6 and XT8). So if I can notch up the low freq by +6db don't we get a good solution . Or is this too simplistic.

The speakers aren't designed to be driven with a 6dB bass boost, so I'd be concerned about either the amp or (more likely) the woofers getting stressed.

I think you have 3 options:

1. experiment with placement of speakers and/or room treatment to tone down the treble/mids

2. buy new speakers

3. buy a sub.

 

[davedotco]

While what you say is true, the couple of octaves above 50 hz can be equalised with care and will help with the problem. Tone controls are too wide ranging to be of real help, the equaliser mentioned above can boost lowish and mid bass to improve the balance and cut very deep bass to prevent overload, the frequencies below 50-60 hz can be sent to the sub, exactly as it should be.

 

[Vladimir]

While what you say is true, the couple of octaves above 50 hz can be equalised with care and will help with the problem. Tone controls are too wide ranging to be of real help, the equaliser mentioned above can boost lowish and mid bass to improve the balance and cut very deep bass to prevent overload, the frequencies below 50-60 hz can be sent to the sub, exactly as it should be.

Good catch.

By reducing harsh peaks in mids and highs one can balance the sound and notice the clean optimal bass, instead of adding boom and distortion. In tone control speak, don't turn up the bass, reduce the treble.