active speakers ?

[steve_1979]

Sorry for stirring up the argument but you were, and still are, being told rubbish.

So I will try and explain as clearly as I can, apologies for starting with the simple stuff.

To get the best sound from a computer you need a dac, probably usb, an amplifier and some speakers. In 'purist' hi-fo terms this would be all separate components, but when you realise that the bigest single cost in dacs and amplifiers is the casework, separating everything becomes unreasonably expensive...

Looking at the last 5 amplifiers I've bought (for between £26 and £1650). The single biggest cost in every single one of them was not the casework. The single biggest cost was either the power supply transformers or the output valves.

Maybe that's a good general guide to whether an amplifier is half decent or not? Whether the casework was the single biggest cost or not.

If you want to know if an amplifier is a good one or not just pick it up and feel how heavy it is. That's probably a more reliable benchmark than most magazine reviews.

 

[lpv]

Go to a pro shop and check yourself.. I did that and left shop with a pair.

 

[ID.]

From my experience with traditional passive speaker/amp setup(s) and actives, I agree that you'll get best VFM from actives in this case. A knowledgeable buyer could probably do well putting together 2nd hand kit, but without the depth of knowledge and experience of the equipent I think it is probably very hit and miss.

Ignore the twaddle about active speakers/studio monitors only being good for nearfield. They work well in my living room. My experience is that they are basically hifi speakers with a bit more clarity, resolution and better dynamics.

so what can i expect from these monitors from yamaha ? what will i experience playing trampled down love or kashmir cranked up ?

I think that they will rock with this music. Much more so than a cheap traditional setup. They will go louder, have better instrument separation, be punchier, etc.

 

[davedotco]

Sorry for stirring up the argument but you were, and still are, being told rubbish.

So I will try and explain as clearly as I can, apologies for starting with the simple stuff.

To get the best sound from a computer you need a dac, probably usb, an amplifier and some speakers. In 'purist' hi-fo terms this would be all separate components, but when you realise that the bigest single cost in dacs and amplifiers is the casework, separating everything becomes unreasonably expensive...

Looking at the last 5 amplifiers I've bought (for between £26 and £1650). The single biggest cost in every single one of them was not the casework. The single biggest cost was either the power supply transformers or the output valves.

Maybe that's a good general guide to whether an amplifier is half decent or not? Whether the casework was the single biggest cost or not.

In the context of budget solid state amplifiers the case is easily the most expensive component, then transformer, rest of the power supply etc. In this market 'bling' sells, second only to brand recognotion. Valve amplifiers are a different proposition entirely.

The case becomes even more expensive in high end electronics, like this say....

 

[chebby]

I suspect there'll be a glut of AVI ADM9.x and DM5 hitting the s/h market imminently ...

Why?

 

[Dave_]

Im looking for a new system. i play all my music through my dell laptop these days via itunes ( wav) or spotify (free) i have a budget of 4-500 gbp im either looking at a decent 2nd amp plus dac and some decent standmounter's.

I suspect there'll be a glut of AVI ADM9.x and DM5 hitting the s/h market imminently, so worth keeping an eye on as you'll get a bargain (might be a bit optimistic picking up later model 9s within your budget, but older models and DM5s should be within reach I imagine)

EDIT - There's an older pair of ADM9s that the owners struggling to sell (they're white) on AVF at the moment within your budget.

 

[lindsayt]

If you want to know if an amplifier is a good one or not just pick it up and feel how heavy it is. That's probably a more reliable benchmark than most magazine reviews.

I agree.

There does seem to be a pretty good co-relation between weight and amplifier sound quality.

With a lot of the weight likely to come from power transformers (and output transformers for transformer based valve amps). And a big, heavy, properly engineered pair of transformers are likely to cost more than a case, unless the manufacturer has gone for a needlessly blingy case which will do nothing to improve the sound quality but might improve the looks.

By the way, how much does the amplification in your system weigh Steve?

 

[Dave_]

I suspect there'll be a glut of AVI ADM9.x and DM5 hitting the s/h market imminently ...

Why?

Recovering upgraders will be upgrading (to DM10s)

 

[steve_1979]

If you want to know if an amplifier is a good one or not just pick it up and feel how heavy it is. That's probably a more reliable benchmark than most magazine reviews.

I agree.

There does seem to be a pretty good co-relation between weight and amplifier sound quality.

With a lot of the weight likely to come from power transformers (and output transformers for transformer based valve amps). And a big, heavy, properly engineered pair of transformers are likely to cost more than a case, unless the manufacturer has gone for a needlessly blingy case which will do nothing to improve the sound quality but might improve the looks.

By the way, how much does the amplification in your system weigh Steve?

The subwoofer feels like a ton but I don't know how much of this is the driver and how much is the amplifier.

The DM5's are pretty light actually but being class D rather than A/B this to be expected.

 

[steve_1979]

I suspect there'll be a glut of AVI ADM9.x and DM5 hitting the s/h market imminently ...

Why?

Recovering upgraders will be upgrading (to DM10s)

Totally agree.

AVI does NOT cure upgradis IMO. Even though for most AVI owners their speakers are the best that they've ever heard there's still the temptation to upgrade when a new model arrives with even better performance than the previous one.

If anyone want to grab themselves the hifi bargin of a lifetime the next few months are the time to do it. With a large number of current ADM9 owners upgrading the the new 'super' DM10s there will be a glut of secondhand AMD9's hitting the market all at the same time. This together with the time of year (everyone is still recovering from Christmas in January/February/March) this means that lots of the incredible ADM9's will be available at fraction of their true value.

 

[pauldownton1979]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-Hs-80-M-HS80M-Active-Studio-Monitors-Pair-/161566418777?pt=UK_ConElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL&hash=item259e1be759

are these the same model ? seems a good price and would leave me more room to move on a dac. also do i need cables ? how do i connect them both to a source ? sorry if this sounds stupid....

 

[spiny norman]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-Hs-80-M-HS80M-Active-Studio-Monitors-Pa...

are these the same model ? seems a good price and would leave me more room to move on a dac. also do i need cables ? how do i connect them both to a source ? sorry if this sounds stupid....

Yes, them's the fellas! Yes, you'll need cables, with the right plugs on each end: ie phono plugs for your source end, and either 1/4in/6.3mm plugs or XLR connectors on the speaker end. Places like Maplin or other electronics suppliers will have suitable cables and/or adapters.

You'll also need some kind of volume control unless you're willing to live with constantly reaching round behind the speakers to twiddle the gain knobs on the back panels, or your source component has adjustable output level, as some CD players (for example) do.

You could either use a simple preamplifier if you have multiple sources, or a studio type monitor level control, which is essentially a volume potentiometer in a box. Something like this would do the job for sensible money.

 

[davedotco]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-Hs-80-M-HS80M-Active-Studio-Monitors-Pa...

are these the same model ? seems a good price and would leave me more room to move on a dac. also do i need cables ? how do i connect them both to a source ? sorry if this sounds stupid....

Yes, them's the fellas! Yes, you'll need cables, with the right plugs on each end: ie phono plugs for your source end, and either 1/4in/6.3mm plugs or XLR connectors on the speaker end. Places like Maplin or other electronics suppliers will have suitable cables and/or adapters.

You'll also need some kind of volume control unless you're willing to live with constantly reaching round behind the speakers to twiddle the gain knobs on the back panels, or your source component has adjustable output level, as some CD players (for example) do.

You could either use a simple preamplifier if you have multiple sources, or a studio type monitor level control, which is essentially a volume potentiometer in a box. Something like this would do the job for sensible money.

More duff information, I really don't know what it is about this thread that encourages people to post such guff.

These are the old models that were discontinued nearly two years ago. They were not half bad but the latest HS5, 7 and 8 models are better in every respect. The HS8 can be bought new for £378 including shipping, why on earth pay £319 for a pair of used, inferior speakers, it doesn't make sense.

If you are, as you describe, using just the computer for a source (at this time anyway) then you already have volume controls in Spotify and iTunes and probably a 'global' system control as well, why do you need another? Until you add non computer sources, if you do that is, you will need a functional dac/preamp with input switching and all the rest, but that is down the track.

You need a simple usb dac, preferably one that reclocks the data (asynchronous), the Odac, an open source design is available from a number of constructors and should cost less than £100. Try the Ephiphany E-Dac.

 

[pauldownton1979]

ok so i just need the speakers, a dac and a cables. is that a cable between the 2 speakers like the avi models, or do you run a cable from each in to the dac ?

thanks for all the advice

 

[JoelSim]

ok so i just need the speakers, a dac and a cables. is that a cable between the 2 speakers like the avi models, or do you run a cable from each in to the dac ?

thanks for all the advice

The biggest improvement in sound quality will be the speakers and a higher bitrate on Spotify, then a DAC will follow to refine this. Don't underestimate the difference between standard and premium spotify streaming.

 

[pauldownton1979]

yes mate ive upgraded and there is a clear difference already with the system ive got, so i cant wait to get some proper kit.

 

[spiny norman]

More duff information, I really don't know what it is about this thread that encourages people to post such guff.

Maybe we're all trying to aspire to your standards, O almighty, omnicsient and all-knowledgable one.

Now, how about another of your lovable rock'n'roll anecdotes, then some mysterious mentions of having sold/made/invented whichever product happens to be under discussion?

You know, something like 'It was when I was sitting beside the pool – Bahamas, I think it was – with Jimmy Page, Keith Moon and Torakusu Yamaha...'

 

[BigH]

If there is a cable between the speakers then that should come with the speakers I would have thought? Yes cable to connect computer to speaker or to Dac then to speaker, not expensive about £5.

 

[davedotco]

More duff information, I really don't know what it is about this thread that encourages people to post such guff.

Maybe we're all trying to aspire to your standards, O almighty, omnicsient and all-knowledgable one.

Now, how about another of your lovable rock'n'roll anecdotes, then some mysterious mentions of having sold/made/invented whichever product happens to be under discussion?

You know, something like 'It was when I was sitting beside the pool – Bahamas, I think it was – with Jimmy Page, Keith Moon and Torakusu Yamaha...'

Strangely you don't need to raise the dead to discover that the HS80 is an old discontinued model.......*dash1*

About 30 seconds on google would have done it.

There is no excuse for offering such poor factual information, you have been around long enough to know that.

 

[davedotco]

ok so i just need the speakers, a dac and a cables. is that a cable between the 2 speakers like the avi models, or do you run a cable from each in to the dac ?

thanks for all the advice

The Yamahas are fully self contained individual speakers, there is no need to run a cable between the speakers.

So, choose a dac, think about this for a minute.

As I said above if everything is coming off the computer and you have no requirement at this time to plug in anything else tthen a simple usb digital in, analogue phono out dac is all you need. Bear in mind that in this type of setup you will be controlling volume from the applications on your laptop.

If you think this is all you need for the foreseable, then the Epiphany E-Dac I mentioned above will be great, typically about £90. If you really think you need more inputs, or a volume or headphone amp, say so and I shall point you in the right direction, though it will cost more than £90.

The E-dac, like most dacs, has an output on normal rca phono plugs, but the Yamahas have balanced inputs on 6.35mm jacks (full sized headphone type) or XLR. This is not as complex as it sounds, buy a pair of single phono to phono leads of the required length, these are effectively your speaker cables, so measure out what you need. To get them to connect to the speakers buy a couple of phono to mono 6.35mm jack converter, there are loads on the web at a couple of pounds each, not only do they convert your cable from rca to jack, but they automatically unbalance the Yamaha input correctly too.

Then choose your speaker, we have been talking about the HS8, but this is a pretty big, stand mount speaker, very powerful too. Check the dimensions, if you think it a bit too big, take a look at the HS7, a bit smaller and about £100 cheaper. You will need proper stands for either, again check the dimensions to get good support with the tweeter roughly at head height in the listening position.

Set up is straightforward, the connections are as I described and the best way to set up the volume is to power the system up with the level controls on the rear of the speakers set to zero. Set the volume levels in itunes and Spotify to maximum, then turn up the speakers to the maximum level you will normally use, adjust for balance and leave them set. Just use the volume in iTunes and Spotify which should now be near the top of their range for normal use.

There are bass and treble 'shelving' controls on the rear of the speakers, I suggest you set the bass to minimum and the treble to flat to start with, live with them for a while then adjust to suit.

 

[spiny norman]

you have been around long enough to know that.

Yes sir, sorry sir, I know I should know better sir.

I am now suitably humbled by your wisdom, inexhaustible knowledge and patrician attitude.

 

[davedotco]

you have been around long enough to know that.

Yes sir, sorry sir, I know I should know better sir.

I am now suitably humbled by your wisdom, inexhaustible knowledge and patrician attitude.

Then maybe you can stop taking the pith and offer the OP some constructive advice.

 

[spiny norman]

Then maybe you can stop taking the pith and offer the OP some constructive advice.

I have attempted to offer some advice but clearly it didn't meet your high standards. You really do have an attitude problem, don't you?

It's no wonder so few people are willing to venture an opinion on this forum these days when they are going to be spoken down to by self-appointed 'experts' like you.

 

[gowiththeflow]

How do the HS8's compare with passive "HiFi" speakers such as the KEF LS50, KEF R300, B&W CM6 s2, ATC SCM11 and PMC Twenty-22? (Assuming driven by £1500 - £2000 amps.)

Are we talking completely different leagues?

z

 

[davedotco]

How do the HS8's compare with passive "HiFi" speakers such as the KEF LS50, KEF R300, B&W CM6 s2, ATC SCM11 and PMC Twenty-22? (Assuming driven by £1500 - £2000 amps.)

Are we talking completely different leagues?

A genuinely difficult question to answer, it really does depend on where you are coming from and what you consider your reference points. Clearly there is a huge price difference, the HS8s can be had for around £400 a pair, so the specific comparison is clearly not fair.

In general terms good active speakers have a different 'balance' of strengths and weaknesses compared to good passive combinations. Active speakers tend to be particularly clear in the midband, they are also well controlled and usually very tight in the bass. They will go pretty loud quite effortlessly and usually do so with less 'compression' but this is when compared to passive combinations of roughly similar prices.

Comparing them to more expensive combinations depends a lot on what you think of the passive speakers you mention, some people, myself included, are very wary of the 'voicing' of many hi-fi speakers in this price range, admitedly some of your examples are less guilty of this tham many others.

By 'voicing' I mean the way the speakers are made to conform to the hi-fi ideals of a warm, engaging presence that seems to be what many buyers want.

Personally I much prefer a more honest, direct presentation, so in some respects I would take the HS8s in preference to many more expensive passive combinations, but that said, I consider both PMC and ATC to make some fine speakers, so those, properly driven may well get my vote in this case.

It does though beg the question of how these more expensive passive combinations would compare to some of the better active designs around the £2k mark, I'm thinking Quested S8r, Even Opals and the 'Rock' by Unity audio.