A7X and HD650 DAC and AMP setup question

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Hi there. After doing some research, I think I will go with a pair of Adam A7X for my computer desk (as I do everything with my computer now. I may occasionally move these out to the living room for movie watching) with music source from my Mac through USB. I will also be using my HD650 headphone quite some time for night listening. But now I am facing the dilemna on which DAC and AMP to go with it. I'm still new to all these but would like to get a decent setup where I don't have to change in the next 10 years.

Although the A7X is an active speaker, I will still need an AMP to push my HD650. Here are the setup I came up with currently:

1. Audiolab M-DAC+ (will be using the built-in headphone amp)

2. Schiit Gungnir (DAC) and Schiit Asgard 2 (AMP)

I wouldn't be able to test them out due to the place I'm located currently. Although Audiolab M-DAC+ is a famous well-known product, I do heard some review saying Schiit Gungnir have a clearer and more detail sound. I tend to go with Schiit Gungnir as it is cheaper and they are made in USA with 5 year warranty. One big difference I notice is that the Gungnir does not have a volume knob and a remote control. Will I be missing anything here? I know I can still control the volume with my Mac and the speaker volume knob...

Does anyone have experience with Schiit Gungnir and Asgard 2? Does the multibit worth the upgrade for the Gungnir? Is Asgard 2 a wise choice to be just the amp for my HD650? Or just getting the Magni 2, designed mainly for headphone, will be sufficient, and save the money for further investment of a full amp?

One more question: Or should I be investing money on other newer technology DAC such as the Cambridge Audio CXN which has bluetooth, airplay, spotify, NAS drive and uPnP support?

 

[ID.]

Although the A7X is an active speaker, I will still need an AMP to push my HD650. Here are the setup I came up with currently:

It's an active speaker, but you still probably want something to act as a preamp (volume control) rather than adjusting the volume on your mac or on the front of each speaker separately.

2. Schiit Gungnir (DAC) and Schiit Asgard 2 (AMP)

One big difference I notice is that the Gungnir does not have a volume knob and a remote control. Will I be missing anything here? I know I can still control the volume with my Mac and the speaker volume knob...

You would use the Asgard 2 to both drive your headphones and as a preamp for the speakers, so the Gungnir would be connected via the Asgard rather than directly to the speakers. Unfortunately the Asgard 2 doesn't seem to have a remote control, so that's one area of functionality where the M-DAC has the advantage.

As for sound, unfortunately I've never listened to the M-DAC or the Schiits, so I couldn't say. Not likely that anyone here has compared them. Perhaps you could dig up more information on headfi.

As a general piece of advice, I would avoid matching the HD650s with anything to warm and bassy because they have quite a warm, full bodied sound.

 

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Thanks for the advice ID. I did read quite a few of your comments in this forum and take note during my research.

Just found out that Valhalla 2 better fits HD650, but Valhalla 2 and Asgard 2 both are unbalanced (RCA), while Gungnir and A7X is both support balanced (XLR), I might need a Mjolnir 2 if I want to have a balanced preamp.. which cause another USD500-600.. Wonder whether there are huge difference between balanced and unbalanced..

How is your Pioneer U5 performing? As I noted you are also using a Mac and with A7X speakers.. Did you use any stand for the speakers?

 

[daveh75]

As an alternative how about a Matrix Mini-i

Combined Headphone amp/Pre/DAC + Remote (optional) with both XLR & RCA outputs, and USB, Coaxial, Optical and AES/EBU inputs, and significantly cheaper than the options you're looking at

 

[ID.]

Thanks for the advice ID. I did read quite a few of your comments in this forum and take note during my research.

Just found out that Valhalla 2 better fits HD650, but Valhalla 2 and Asgard 2 both are unbalanced (RCA), while Gungnir and A7X is both support balanced (XLR), I might need a Mjolnir 2 if I want to have a balanced preamp.. which cause another USD500-600.. Wonder whether there are huge difference between balanced and unbalanced..

How is your Pioneer U5 performing? As I noted you are also using a Mac and with A7X speakers.. Did you use any stand for the speakers?

i have my speakers on stands on the floor on the far side of my desk. I'd prefer more solid stands than the height adjustable ones I've got, but they work ok.

The U-05 is good. The neutral detailed sound is a good match for the 650s. Works well with the Adams too because I enjoy a clean, detailed sound.

From the reviews I've read the Schiit equipment should work ok with the 650s and speakers because it sounds like it isn't too warm, even the tube stuff. Whether or not it suits your tastes I couldn't say.

 

[ID.]

Thanks for the advice ID. I did read quite a few of your comments in this forum and take note during my research.

Just found out that Valhalla 2 better fits HD650, but Valhalla 2 and Asgard 2 both are unbalanced (RCA), while Gungnir and A7X is both support balanced (XLR), I might need a Mjolnir 2 if I want to have a balanced preamp.. which cause another USD500-600.. Wonder whether there are huge difference between balanced and unbalanced..

How is your Pioneer U5 performing? As I noted you are also using a Mac and with A7X speakers.. Did you use any stand for the speakers?

i have my speakers on stands on the floor on the far side of my desk. I'd prefer more solid stands than the height adjustable ones I've got, but they work ok.

The U-05 is good. The neutral detailed sound is a good match for the 650s. Works well with the Adams too because I enjoy a clean, detailed sound.

From the reviews I've read the Schiit equipment should work ok with the 650s and speakers because it sounds like it isn't too warm, even the tube stuff. Whether or not it suits your tastes I couldn't say.

 

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How do you connect your A7X with? XLR or RCA? Is there much advantage with using the balance connection? I have read somewhere saying the balanced connection will only be beneficial if there are high noise level. If the cable is short, the noise level will be immaterial and there won't have much difference.

 

[ID.]

How do you connect your A7X with? XLR or RCA? Is there much advantage with using the balance connection? I have read somewhere saying the balanced connection will only be beneficial if there are high noise level. If the cable is short, the noise level will be immaterial and there won't have much difference.

I use balanced, although I haven't tried it with unbalanced with since I got the U-05. I like the idea of balanced and the balanced connection is one of the reasons I chose the U-05 over the Marantz HD-DAC1. Not based on any rational reasons, although the signal cables do run behind my desk where I've got a real tangle of power and other cables in my home office.

I think one of the other user on this forum, davedotco, said that he thought the A7X sound better with a balanced connection, but I'm too lazy to try it out myself.

 

[davedotco]

How do you connect your A7X with? XLR or RCA? Is there much advantage with using the balance connection? I have read somewhere saying the balanced connection will only be beneficial if there are high noise level. If the cable is short, the noise level will be immaterial and there won't have much difference.

I use balanced, although I haven't tried it with unbalanced with since I got the U-05. I like the idea of balanced and the balanced connection is one of the reasons I chose the U-05 over the Marantz HD-DAC1. Not based on any rational reasons, although the signal cables do run behind my desk where I've got a real tangle of power and other cables in my home office.

I think one of the other user on this forum, davedotco, said that he thought the A7X sound better with a balanced connection, but I'm too lazy to try it out myself.

I have never owned A7xs but have used them in the shop, in the studio and briefly at home.

I think there might be an issue with noise using unbalanced cables and inputs, nothing to do with interference in the cable, more to do with noise being generated in the unused phase of the differential amplifier in the line stage of the speaker.

The unused phase should be tied to ground but I am not always convinced that this is done effectively, pro and hi-fi equipment seem (sometimes) to deal with the difference between chassis and signal ground differently and the result can be noise.

Note. This is not a criticism of the Adam speakers specifically, they are I think pretty good in this respect, but an issue often affecting the interface when pro type speakers are used with hi-fi pre-amps of one sort or another.

 

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I just checked the Luxman DA250 you mentioned in another thread. Seems to be better alternative for Audiolab M-DAC+. I guess I will have to decide whether to go with an all-in-one solution (DA250) or Schiit Gungnir (connect the A7X directly) and use Schiit Valhalla for HD650....

 

[hidehide]

I have never owned A7xs but have used them in the shop, in the studio and briefly at home.

I think there might be an issue with noise using unbalanced cables and inputs, nothing to do with interference in the cable, more to do with noise being generated in the unused phase of the differential amplifier in the line stage of the speaker.

The unused phase should be tied to ground but I am not always convinced that this is done effectively, pro and hi-fi equipment seem (sometimes) to deal with the difference between chassis and signal ground differently and the result can be noise.

Note. This is not a criticism of the Adam speakers specifically, they are I think pretty good in this respect, but an issue often affecting the interface when pro type speakers are used with hi-fi pre-amps of one sort or another.

Do you mean this only happens with unbalanced cables? So by using balanced cables won't have such issue?

 

[davedotco]

I have never owned A7xs but have used them in the shop, in the studio and briefly at home.

I think there might be an issue with noise using unbalanced cables and inputs, nothing to do with interference in the cable, more to do with noise being generated in the unused phase of the differential amplifier in the line stage of the speaker.

The unused phase should be tied to ground but I am not always convinced that this is done effectively, pro and hi-fi equipment seem (sometimes) to deal with the difference between chassis and signal ground differently and the result can be noise.

Note. This is not a criticism of the Adam speakers specifically, they are I think pretty good in this respect, but an issue often affecting the interface when pro type speakers are used with hi-fi pre-amps of one sort or another.

Do you mean this only happens with unbalanced cables? So by using balanced cables won't have such issue?

The effect may be caused by a number of things, the unused 'leg' of the amplifier, poor earthing, failure to separate chassis and signal ground and quite possibly other reasons too.

When active speakers are used up close, in a desktop situation maybe, it requires only a tiny amount of noise to be present on the input to produce audible noise, using a balanced cable seems to minimise this issue.

To put this in context, I would not expect noise from a well designed speaker such as an Adam to be audible from a normal hi-fi listening position of 10+ ft, in fact I would not expect to hear much in a desktop application either. With some other lesser designs, when used on the desktop, some noise may be audible and the use of balanced connections may well help.

 

[lpv]

As an alternative how about a Matrix Mini-i

Combined Headphone amp/Pre/DAC + Remote (optional) with both XLR & RCA outputs, and USB, Coaxial, Optical and AES/EBU inputs, and significantly cheaper than the options you're looking at

+ 1 for matrix mini

 

[hidehide]

As an alternative how about a Matrix Mini-i

Combined Headphone amp/Pre/DAC + Remote (optional) with both XLR & RCA outputs, and USB, Coaxial, Optical and AES/EBU inputs, and significantly cheaper than the options you're looking at

+ 1 for matrix mini

Interesting.. I wonder how it compare to the Schiit Gungnir..

I can get the matrix mini-i pro for USD430 shipped here.. While Gungnir + Valhalla 2 will cost me like USD1,650 shipped and Audiolab M-DAC+ USD1,600. Are these really comparable?

 

[lpv]

there's not much audiable difference between modern dac's so I wouldn't worry.. if you're interested there's lots of tests with measurments on ' no nonsense' audio websites...

 

[hidehide]

there's not much audiable difference between modern dac's so I wouldn't worry.. if you're interested there's lots of tests with measurments on ' no nonsense' audio websites...

I like your subject title. You both mentioned about Matrix Mini-i, but not the Pro version. Shouldn't the Pro version be better and the price is just a little more?

 

[lpv]

if you need dsd then pro is the way to go..

 

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The Matrix mini-i pro is really tempting given the price and package it offers. But will it waste the potential of the Adam A7x if I pair with just a cheap DAC? I tried to search but didn't see anyone pair the A7X with the mini-i..

 

[lpv]

no, it wont waste anything.. but looks like you've fallen for the amateur's trap.. you'll buy £200 dac and you'll keep thinking what £600 one might do or how much £100 usb cable can improve things.. I recommend you search deeper for some blogs with a measurments, comparisions before you spend any money on anything.. blind tests are an eye opener but I doubt you'll go that far..

 

[hidehide]

no, it wont waste anything.. but looks like you've fallen for the amateur's trap.. you'll buy £200 dac and you'll keep thinking what £600 one might do or how much £100 usb cable can improve things.. I recommend you search deeper for some blogs with a measurments, comparisions before you spend any money on anything.. blind tests are an eye opener but I doubt you'll go that far..

Thanks for the advice.. Will try go to for an audition when I have time to travel...

But noted the Matrix mini-i pro only has a single DAC chip while the Schiit Gungnir has four..

 

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ID, I saw a thread saying you had a B&W 685 s2 in the past. Would love to hear how you would compare that with your current A7X?

 

[ID.]

I had the 685s1. I soon upgraded to some PMC DB1i which outclassed the B&Ws in every aspect except bass extension.

The A7X far outclass the 685s1 in every aspect. Just a better balanced sound. More detail. Better bass (deeper, better control).

About the only thing that my previous passive setup (PMC DB1i and Esoteric RZ-1) had over my current setup was that voices just seemed more nuanced and textured, but overall the sound was coloured, lacked the detail I wanted and a little unbalanced. I'm far more satisfied with my A7Xs and my Genelecs than I ever was with my passive setup. The little Genelecs seem to go almost as deep in the bass as my PMC DB1is. The PMCs really wanted a more authoritative amp. They did bass much better on the end of some Luxman integrateds.

Another reason I love active speakers is I'm a sucker for clean sound and lots of detail, and they give me a much more balanced presentation with all of the detail I love.

On the topic of DACs, the difference between my Icon HDP and the U-05 was surprisingly small. There was a slight difference, but not the one you'd necessarily expect for a product twice the price. Then again, the difference between my cheap FiiO D3 and my Icon HDP is also pretty minor, although with the more expensive products I get the functions I need (volume control, more inputs, remote, etc.).

 

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I see. Thanks for the info. Seems the A7X is a very good speaker for me, as I can save the hassle from thinking which amp needs to pair with given it is an active speaker..

I notice your two current setup are both using monitor speakers. Are those one in your bedroom and one in your living room? How do you think about the monitor speakers performed in a living room, where the place you sit may vary. I heard that monitors do have a smaller sweetspot compare to hifi speakers..

 

[ID.]

Genelecs are in my living room because I have two young kids and wanted something with a grill to protect the drivers. They sound good in my living room, but it's a small Tokyo apartment. Ideally I'd like slightly deeper bass, and they sound far better when I can sit in the ideal listening position. Eventually I will swap the Adams out of my office into the living room and have the Genelecs on my desk. I expect the Adams to be more than enough for my living room and assume I'll still need to use the bass shelving to reduce the bass, but that's one reason I got monitors - I was having major bass issues in my living room that just weren't being dealt with satisfactorily with my passive setup.

With the detailed sound of the A7X I also kind of fancy trying them out with a tube DAC or preamp at some point in the future, just for some fun experimentation.

 

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I see lots of people using Apple Mini to connect to their DAC. I wonder do you have the Apple Mini for music listening exclusively, or the Apple Mini is your main computer at home?

After reading more and more reviews, I am leaning towards Schiit Gungnir multibit + Schiit Mjolnir 2.. With the Mjolnir 2, I can have preamp balanced XLR output to the A7X.. and also a better headphone amp (balanced, hybrid - tube/ss)..