A matter of power amplifiers...

[davedotco]

Seems that way doesn't it. I'm certainly feeling a want transfrom into a motivation :? .

On the matter of the preamp, the materials I located on the P3000r seem very positive but I was hoping to see a Whathifi? review of it for comparison. I noted what they had to say of the more modest Onkyo stereo integrated units and the words 'lean' appeared more than once (if I recall correctly). Does that imply that they are lacking in bass? I wonder if the same holds true of the P3000r.

I do rather enjoy deep bass and my GS20's provide that quite nicely in a relatively small room.

On another matter entirely, and this one is purely academic: would it be mad/redundant to have say, a tube preamp connected to a solid state power amp?

Synergy is everything here. I have heard and indeed owned such combinations and the results are difficult to predict.

You can end up with the best of both worlds, but I have also heard some disastrous combinations. If you go down that route then look for a pre-amp with a low output impedence. A lot of valve pre-amps can be quite high, making power amp matching a bit hit and miss.

 

[Overdose]

So do you have an expensive passive? And how expensive can a passive be anyway?

How expensive can a cable be, which must be a rather simpler affair in terms of construction, than a preamp?

 

[Vladimir]

 

[Overdose]

well, simple enough question really.

 

[LDTM]

Thank you for your insights, Dave. It's more of a passing curiousity than something being seriously considered but still good to know.

Back on topic, I wish dealers did home demonstrations/auditions here - I'd love to be able to see what differences there are. On paper the Yamaha seems to have a very similar power output for the large part but I have seen it written somewhere that the Onkyo can put out 460W into a single ohm. With figures like that it should be able to cope with most speakers I gather. One of the local reviewers uses it to power his B&W 804D's - now there's a loudspeaker I wouldn't mind hearing again.

I don't know really, the whole idea took form after I realised my budget had been spread to about 50% speakers, 25% amp, 20% CD player and 5% cables. Contributors to other fora have argued that an amp in the same price range as one's speakers is a better approach, shame that British labels are expensive here. When we were originally looking at speakers, my wife and I went out and narrowed down the list over a few days. All other things being equal, she prefers bigger units with lots of bass (who can blame her?) and was leaning towards the Monitor Audio Silver range. At the same price, I liked the GS10's as there was so much more detail in it. We did look at the B&W 800 range but I felt that the the Monitor Audio was ~90% as good but considerably more affordable.

We then went home and after a couple of weeks I suggested a compromise: buy the GS20's. She said she would consider if it there was a demonstrable difference in quality. So we went back to the shop and I had the silver range running whilst she was talking with the shop keeper. Upon returning she asked "Is that the gold series?" to which my response was "No, this is" and flicked the input switch. The difference was astonishing - all the lovely bass that she liked, all the detail I was looking for. Took all of 3 seconds to reach a consensus.

I was kind of hoping for similar results in a better amp but I wonder if I'm being too optimistic.

 

[davedotco]

LTDM, buy the big amp with reasonable confidence. Value for money varies considerably from market to market and the price being quoted looks very good,

At this level, amplifiers are mostly about control, not something that is at all obvious from the specs. Generally better amplifiers will produce greater current and work well into lower or otherwise more difficult loads.

Big speakers, with big bass, need this control more than most and the M5000 should provide it. Get a handle on the sound of the amp/speaker combination before you start to fret over pre-amps.

Have a think about how you see your system evolving too, make sure you get the right functionality when you buy a pre-amp.

 

[LDTM]

LTDM, buy the big amp with reasonable confidence. Value for money varies considerably from market to market and the price being quoted looks very good,

At this level, amplifiers are mostly about control, not something that is at all obvious from the specs. Generally better amplifiers will produce greater current and work well into lower or otherwise more difficult loads.

Big speakers, with big bass, need this control more than most and the M5000 should provide it. Get a handle on the sound of the amp/speaker combination before you start to fret over pre-amps.

Have a think about how you see your system evolving too, make sure you get the right functionality when you buy a pre-amp.

Dave, thank you very much for taking the time to share your thoughts - much gratitude. I think I may just pull the proverbial trigger and see what comes to pass. I have about a dozen new CD's arriving shortly so it will be nice to try new music on a new power amp.

With regards to preamp choices and system evolution, I see your point and it is a salient one. Whilst I will certainly consider a preamp with future-looking capabilities (and most likely will go for the matching Onkyo preamp) I doubt that much will really change with the way I listen to this system. What I neglected to mention earlier is "the other woman": we have a home theatre rig consisting of Yamaha RX-V767 (see a pattern?), 4X Dali Lektor 1's, LCR, and B&W 608 subwoofer hooked up to a Sony tele with a couple of DVD/uniserval players, ipod dock, and karaoke machine (don't ask ). The high-techy stuff runs through that one which is mostly the wife's domain as she loves her soap operas and tends to spend her free time thusly engaged. Hey, if that's her gig, I'm making sure she's doing it in style, right? :shifty:

My kit is in the 'listening room" and is my escape from other worldly concerns. I imagine the following will divide opinions and could well leave some people feeling offended - in which case I apologise and do not wish to be seen deriding many people's preferences - but for me the laptop is for work and work only: I cannot seem to relax streaming files from the computer to the hifi as it just feels 'off'. I much rather popping in disc or, if pressed, using the ipod for the odd song I ordered from Amazon. As such, I don't really foresee the need for a USB interface but hey, if it's there I won't complain. So long as the sound quality is unfettered for my preferred media, I'm happy as a clam.

I suppose all that remains now is to order said beast and upload obligatory photos :dance: :dance:

Whilst I'm here, I wonder if I could impose one more question of you good people. Bi-wiring. Devil didn't make me do it but came free with the speakers 8) The speaker leads I have have four individual wires bound together in a single run. Ortofon reference 800 I think if that means anything. With the A-S1000, the manual suggests I plug one pair into the 'A' speaker outputs, another pair into the 'B' speaker outputs and select 'A+B - biwiring' on the front panel switch. The M5000R has only a single pair of binding posts. Using the same cable could I attach some spades to the ends and apply them one over the other on the amplifier's binding posts?

 

[davedotco]

I understand.

With the matching pre-amp you have multiple input options, including digital in puts. Use the digital out from your Yamaha CD player and in the fullness of time, look for a nice transport, supporting the formats you want.

Your market is very different to the UK, look out for whatever gives the best price - performance ratio, it will be very different to the UK.

Regarding bi-wiring. There is generally no advantage doing this, if you have the links for the speakers, refit them and use the cable 'shotgun' style, ie two cores 'doubled up' for each leg of the single wired cable.

If you can get the spades (or other connectors) properly (professionally?) soldered and sealed, then fine, if not cut off the ends, bare some fresh wire and use bare ends.

 

[LDTM]

Thank you for your suggestions.

I have read about the skepticism around bi-wiring but never listened to the GS20's with a standard dual core wire so I'm not in a position to judge either way. By and large, retailers in Japan don't offer cash discounts or bundle deals (something that took me a while to get used to) but they do give you a percentage of 'points' from puchases that give you store credit. Since they were effectively free and I had nothing else to use the points on I figured, 'Why not, can't hurt...'

The nearest hi-fi store is a couple of hours by train away but spades are easily sourced from Amazon, Nakamichi make spades that just screw on. Easy.

Come to think of it, my interconnect was paid with points too - could be worse8)

Cheers,

LDTM

 

[jaxwired]

Andyjm, I share your view that with hifi, the less links the better. But if that's the case, an integrated amplifier will always sound better than a pre/power since it doesn't have to go through another set of interconnects. I don't have the technical explanation why but fwiw, let me share an experience:

About 6 months ago, 3 of us decided to do a preamp comparison. So I brought over my entry level Audio Research tube preamp, my friend brought his DIY passive preamp (which he and his fellow DIYers were adamant was better than active preamps for exactly the reasons that you mention) to the hifi room of another friend who has a Conrad Johnson ACT 2 series 2 tube preamp (which costs USD16500). The preamp fed into monoblock tube power amps of 18 watts each driving high sensitivity Klipsch horn speakers.

As much as I hoped for there to be little difference compared to the CJ, unfortunately this was not so. The CJ was clearly superior with its strong points being it's effortless full bodied sound with excellent palpability. In comparison my ARC sounded bright and less "tubey". The passive preamp just sounded dead and lacking in dynamics as well as sounding less natural (I guess partly due to the other 2 being tube preamps).

OK so this was not a double blind test and the 3 preamps were certainly in very different price ranges, but the 3 of us concurred in our opinion of each preamp. The moral of the story is that the guy with the passive preamp now owns a Conrad Johnson PV15 tube preamp.

Mirrors my experience with passives. I've also yet to hear a DAC drive an amp directly and sound better than a good active preamp in the loop. Still hopeful that I will find a DAC capable of this. Will keep,trying. Bound to happen eventually. I do agree that less stuff in the signal path should theoretically sound superior. Unfortunately that has not proven true with my considerable gear experience. Although the NAD M2 is a killer one box solution. NADs got the new M12 and M22 coming out very soon and look V'promising indeed.

 

[LDTM]

Rank amateur photo editing but it could look something like this:ray:

What do we think people?

 

[hifikrazy]

That power amp is a real looker, and so is the preamp and CDP.

 

[hifikrazy]

Mirrors my experience with passives. I've also yet to hear a DAC drive an amp directly and sound better than a good active preamp in the loop. Still hopeful that I will find a DAC capable of this. Will keep,trying. Bound to happen eventually. I do agree that less stuff in the signal path should theoretically sound superior. Unfortunately that has not proven true with my considerable gear experience. Although the NAD M2 is a killer one box solution. NADs got the new M12 and M22 coming out very soon and look V'promising indeed.

Yup, the guy with the Conrad Johnson PV15 did a comparison with the CJ in the loop and without (using his Benchmark DAC2 as the preamp) and his opinion is that having the active preamp in the loop is still better.

 

[LDTM]

I just had a mad thought: what if I run one set of leads from Yamaha's speaker terminals into the GS20's and another set from the Onkyo speaker terminals? Interesting idea or face-palm stupidity?:?

 

[hifikrazy]

I don't think that's a good idea

 

[LDTM]

Didn't think it would be, just wanted to confirm. Cheers.

Back to the coal face then...

 

[andyjm]

I just had a mad thought: what if I run one set of leads from Yamaha's speaker terminals into the GS20's and another set from the Onkyo speaker terminals? Interesting idea or face-palm stupidity?:?

Connecting the outputs of power amps in parallel will involve lots of drama and probably the destruction of one (or both) of the amps. In this case, HiFi is correct.

 

[andyjm]

Mirrors my experience with passives. I've also yet to hear a DAC drive an amp directly and sound better than a good active preamp in the loop. Still hopeful that I will find a DAC capable of this. Will keep,trying. Bound to happen eventually. I do agree that less stuff in the signal path should theoretically sound superior. Unfortunately that has not proven true with my considerable gear experience. Although the NAD M2 is a killer one box solution. NADs got the new M12 and M22 coming out very soon and look V'promising indeed.

Yup, the guy with the Conrad Johnson PV15 did a comparison with the CJ in the loop and without (using his Benchmark DAC2 as the preamp) and his opinion is that having the active preamp in the loop is still better.

Of course it makes no sense that putting more 'stuff' in the way of the signal will improve it. It is quite possible though that people prefer the colouration that putting a preamp in the loop introduces.

I have separate Krell pre / power amps. I have tried driving the power amps directly from my streamer, without the preamp in the loop. I managed to convince myself that the background noise was reduced and that overall the sound was clearer. I didn't have any measurement equimpent available at the time to verify this, so I could have just been imagining it.

I need the switching capability of the pre amp, and as it is also a DSP processor, I use it for basic room equalisation - so for normal listening, the pre amp is back in the loop.

 

[davedotco]

Mirrors my experience with passives. I've also yet to hear a DAC drive an amp directly and sound better than a good active preamp in the loop. Still hopeful that I will find a DAC capable of this. Will keep,trying. Bound to happen eventually. I do agree that less stuff in the signal path should theoretically sound superior. Unfortunately that has not proven true with my considerable gear experience. Although the NAD M2 is a killer one box solution. NADs got the new M12 and M22 coming out very soon and look V'promising indeed.

Yup, the guy with the Conrad Johnson PV15 did a comparison with the CJ in the loop and without (using his Benchmark DAC2 as the preamp) and his opinion is that having the active preamp in the loop is still better.

Voicing, it's all in the voicing.

Valve pre-amps have a market to conform to, as indeed do pro-level dac/pre-amps. Itis hardly surprising they audition differently.

 

[LDTM]

I just had a mad thought: what if I run one set of leads from Yamaha's speaker terminals into the GS20's and another set from the Onkyo speaker terminals? Interesting idea or face-palm stupidity?:?

Connecting the outputs of power amps in parallel will involve lots of drama and probably the destruction of one (or both) of the amps. In this case, HiFi is correct.

I meant for instance hooking the Yamaha up to the speaker's lower pair of terminals and the Onkyo to the upper pair. I wouldn't have done it anyway, just wondering. Cheers.

 

[davedotco]

Thank you for your suggestions.

I have read about the skepticism around bi-wiring but never listened to the GS20's with a standard dual core wire so I'm not in a position to judge either way. By and large, retailers in Japan don't offer cash discounts or bundle deals (something that took me a while to get used to) but they do give you a percentage of 'points' from puchases that give you store credit. Since they were effectively free and I had nothing else to use the points on I figured, 'Why not, can't hurt...'

The nearest hi-fi store is a couple of hours by train away but spades are easily sourced from Amazon, Nakamichi make spades that just screw on. Easy.

Come to think of it, my interconnect was paid with points too - could be worse8)

Cheers,

LDTM

Don't bother with screw on spade connectors, pointless. Just another joint to come loose, oxidise etc. Either get them soldered and sealed or use bare wires.

The cables you have are fine, jusy use them doubled up, ie two cores for each leg of a 'single wired' cable. If you have the links just put them back on the speaker terminals, if not you can bare a bit more cable and run it through both HF and LF on each leg.

No need and no advantage making things more complicated.

 

[LDTM]

Fair point Dave.

I haven't ordered it yet but quite likely will. I'm interested to see what the results will be. Some chap had an A-S500 and bought the M5000r, said that things sounded tighter and cleaner. Wonder if I will get a similar impression.

I listen to a lot of power metal with lots of double kick drum goodness so control over bass is something I'm looking for.

 

[hifikrazy]

I just had a mad thought: what if I run one set of leads from Yamaha's speaker terminals into the GS20's and another set from the Onkyo speaker terminals? Interesting idea or face-palm stupidity?:?

Connecting the outputs of power amps in parallel will involve lots of drama and probably the destruction of one (or both) of the amps. In this case, HiFi is correct.

I meant for instance hooking the Yamaha up to the speaker's lower pair of terminals and the Onkyo to the upper pair. I wouldn't have done it anyway, just wondering. Cheers.

Yes, that's what I understood you to mean, but I don't see what benefits that will yield. As andyjm said, a lot of potential pain for no perceivable gain.

 

[LDTM]

Sweet, I just thought it might be like a poor man's bi-amping. No worries,I must have had a wire crossed somewhere (Ba dum dum tish! - Sorry I couldn't help myself)

I'll stick with davedotco's suggestion - just bind two cores of each wire together and stick them in a single set of posts, assuming they will fit.

This is correct is it not:

Signal path: Yamaha A-S1000 pre out ->[RCA interconnect] -> Onkyo M5000r input.

Speaker setting: Turn speaker selector on Yamaha to "off", speaker cables as usual from Onkyo ->GS20.

 

[LDTM]

Apologies for repeatedly asking stupid questions but...

Suppose down the line I upgrade to a better pre amp, I then have to decide what to do with the A-S1000. One solution is to sell it or give away to one of my friends (in the hopes of converting them to the dark side of audiophilia>) )

A second potential option is to connect the A-S1000 to my AVR and use it to power the front set of Dali Lektor one's, in which case it goes like this right?

1: Disconnect L/R speaker leads from AVR

2: Run interconnet from AVR L/R preout into MAIN IN input on A-S1000.

3: Connect speakers directly to A-S1000 and set input to MAIN DIRECT

Any point in doing that or just dispose of the amp altogether?

Cheers,

LDTM