£18000 FOR AV AMPLIFIER AND SPEAKERS

[TheHomeCinemaCentre]

Hi Legit, it is very common to to like several different brands of speakers and electronics that is why we feel it is important to consider the system as a whole. The synergy between electronics and speakers at this level is what you are looking for. David from Frank Hi-FI mentions it as well , the need to match the strengths of the components.

Auditioning is the only real way to hear a complete system and to really talk through what you are looking to achieve. Moving to Pre/Power combinations can increase the budget although the Onkyo and Marantz pairings are on a par price wise with the Z11 and SCLX90 they are not always the correct choice with the speakers you favour.

 

[Anonymous]

THE_FORCE:

Hi Legit. I assume that it is a Multichannel system that you are after, not a Stereo setup ? I know members have given you suggestions for your L/R options, but have you thought about the centre and sides/rears ?

Your centre needs to be able to keep up with what's going on either side of it, otherwise you'll likely get an uneven front soundstage. Some peeps use identical speakers for their front 3 , though this isn't always feasible due to height restrictions and encroachment on the viewing image. You could always go down the phantom centre route, but I don't feel it cuts it personally.

You should deffo budget for at least one decent sub in the mix too.

Dave made a good call on the M&K's - but that'd ideally be for movies only. As would Genelec or Procella's.

I agree with Andy Kerr about the acoustic side of it, but seeing as it's a living room, it's quite difficult to achieve without it looking like a mastering room in a recording studio.

I know alot of us here will recommend products that we already own, inevitably due to a bit of bias. I'm the same, so I'll say keep the Kef Ref's at the top of the list for a brilliant compromise for both movies and music. You'll be nay disappointed !

hi the force,

it certainly gonna be multichannel set up and as Nick from home cinema centre suggested a good subwoofer.

i asked to comment on whether the subwoofer had to be another brand or keep it uniform with the the speaker brand.

am open to many options as long as it will work effeiciently for me.

i can see you have the Kef Reference in your set up with Denon Av amps.how well do they integrate?also you have two power amplifiers.are they driving the front three speakers?

if i were to go the Platinums or the Kefs is a norm to do that with high end speakers?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Ok, so I assume you'd like your music to sound better than your movies? Or do you want the best from both worlds? I know many will say that's the same question as music/movie ratio, but they are quite different questions. I watch more films than listen to music, but I still want the very best I can get as far as music is concerned.

If you're looking at the current £4k or £5k integrated amplifers, then definitely yes. Below £5k, you're looking at the Arcam AVR600, Yamaha DSPZ11 and Denon AVCA1HDA. Above £5k, you're looking at the Arcam AV888/P777 pre/power. Depending on your priorities and preferences, some would go with one of the one box amplifiers over the pre/powers.

The Platinum range sounds fine on the end of the Z11. Personally, as previously mentioned, the KEF's beat them for immediacy, attack, and being more neutral, so these would be my choice on the Z11. The Z11/Platinum combination works well enough for many to be happy with it.

For me, movie reproduction doesn't get much better han the Z11 without spending silly money, and music is very capable - it's certainly better than most people are used to, it just depends whether it's up to your demands.

As mentioned above, I think the Z11 is better with the KEF's, but it's whether you think so. The Z11 and Platinum comination is 'nice', but it's a little laid back, and lacks the more informative nature of the KEF's. I did a demo recently between all the hi-fi speaker manufacturers mentioned in this thread (and a couple of others), and it was surprising how different these speakers were. They were so different, I'd be pretty confident in picking out the brand in a blind listening test! It was just so obvious how much more attack the KEF's had over the rest, making many of the others sound too laid back. The PMC's were the next best in my opinion.

The Arcam certainly beats the Yamaha and most others for that matter, as far as music is concerned - this is Arcam's strong point. Movies are great too, but Yamaha's exclusive processing tends to keep tham ahead of the field. One option is to mix and match a pre/power to suit you - Rotel, Arcam, Onkyo and Lexicon all produce pre-amp/processors. They can be partnered with multi-channel power amplifiers from Rotel, Arcam, Lexicon, Bryston, ATC, and Denon. So you could make a pre/power to suit your price point and needs as far as the speaker package is concerned - one thing you need to get right is to make sure the speakers are driven properly - if they're not, you may as well spend £5k.

 

[Frank Harvey]

legit:I asked to comment on whether the subwoofer had to be another brand or keep it uniform with the the speaker brand.

You don't have to use the same manufacurers subwoofers, you can use any. The main thing here is not to buy a sub that's not going to add anything over the main speakers - for example, the PV1 that gel mentions wouldn't be up to the job of keeping up with the likes of PMC and KEF Reference. At £1k, there are far better home cinema subwoofers that will fit the bill. What you have the choice of will vary depending on the dealer you visit, so it's best to see what they recommend.

 

[Anonymous]

FrankHarveyHiFi:

legit:I asked to comment on whether the subwoofer had to be another brand or keep it uniform with the the speaker brand.

You don't have to use the same manufacurers subwoofers, you can use any. The main thing here is not to buy a sub that's not going to add anything over the main speakers - for example, the PV1 that gel mentions wouldn't be up to the job of keeping up with the likes of PMC and KEF Reference. At £1k, there are far better home cinema subwoofers that will fit the bill. What you have the choice of will vary depending on the dealer you visit, so it's best to see what they recommend.

which subwoofer will you recommend David if after auditioning i was to pick Kefs? on your website i can see you deal with lots of brands that make subwoofers.M&K,REL,SUNFIRE and Kefs and Platinums own if so which one looking at my £18000 budget,

 

[Anonymous]

I have the PL300's and my testing fuond the KEF's too detailed and too sweet on high end. The Dali's are amazing at what they do and give such warm bass, but are fussy about placement, and felt it was too difficult to get it all right at home.

I opted for PL300 series because it was the style of sound i liked for stereo and they are not fussy about where they go (something worth thinking about). The centre speaker is by far the best centre I heard, and you can haggle on price - wont say what i got mine for new, but there is BIG room for negotiation.

The Sub it comes with is good and worth getting if you want matching kit and like the wood finish - and of course, you get a better overall price. However, you will never use them for music (the PL300 are all you need) so you may want to consider 2 subs of another brand that may be better value?

I have this hooked up to the Arcam AVR600 - easy peasy and Arcam are awesome with support. My next upgrade is getting the power amp and processor seperate - Again, big deals can be had on this.

Spend as much as you can on blue ray - I have 2500BT as the Amp does decoding and could save a lot here as i thought the only worthwhile step up in quality was at the £2k mark.

I use Xbox 360 as media centre with optical out for PCM and again use the Arcam's DAC. It's a great interface and the xbox controller with Messenger keyboard is easy peasy with nice on screen control.

 

[Anonymous]

legit:

i can see you have the Kef Reference in your set up with Denon Av amps.how well do they integrate?also you have two power amplifiers.are they driving the front three speakers?

if i were to go the Platinums or the Kefs is a norm to do that with high end speakers?

The Rotels are driving all 7 speakers - the 1575 for the 5 Ref's, and the 1562 for the rear XQ10's. The Rotel's aren't overly special - they do what they say on the tin, which is to give the Kef's just a bit more juice - which they like as these babies can go LOUD.

As regards to the Denon - the 4308 is OK. I really should get round to upgrading to something better musically, though as an AV processor it's fine and it has internet radio.XD. Regardless, I still think I'd stick to Denon or Yamaha for the movie/music mixture compromise. I feel I need a dedicated room first though !

Re - the sub. Like David says, there isn't a need to brand match where this is concerned. Kef's Sub to match the Refs is pricey, but equally delicious sounding. I went for the Fathoms myself, but these are only available on import.

I reckon you'll have a superb system by the end of it all regardless of what you choose.

 

[Anonymous]

FrankHarveyHiFi:

Ok, so I assume you'd like your music to sound better than your movies? Or do you want the best from both worlds? I know many will say that's the same question as music/movie ratio, but they are quite different questions. I watch more films than listen to music, but I still want the very best I can get as far as music is concerned.

If you're looking at the current £4k or £5k integrated amplifers, then definitely yes. Below £5k, you're looking at the Arcam AVR600, Yamaha DSPZ11 and Denon AVCA1HDA. Above £5k, you're looking at the Arcam AV888/P777 pre/power. Depending on your priorities and preferences, some would go with one of the one box amplifiers over the pre/powers.

The Platinum range sounds fine on the end of the Z11. Personally, as previously mentioned, the KEF's beat them for immediacy, attack, and being more neutral, so these would be my choice on the Z11. The Z11/Platinum combination works well enough for many to be happy with it.

For me, movie reproduction doesn't get much better han the Z11 without spending silly money, and music is very capable - it's certainly better than most people are used to, it just depends whether it's up to your demands.

As mentioned above, I think the Z11 is better with the KEF's, but it's whether you think so. The Z11 and Platinum comination is 'nice', but it's a little laid back, and lacks the more informative nature of the KEF's. I did a demo recently between all the hi-fi speaker manufacturers mentioned in this thread (and a couple of others), and it was surprising how different these speakers were. They were so different, I'd be pretty confident in picking out the brand in a blind listening test! It was just so obvious how much more attack the KEF's had over the rest, making many of the others sound too laid back. The PMC's were the next best in my opinion.

The Arcam certainly beats the Yamaha and most others for that matter, as far as music is concerned - this is Arcam's strong point. Movies are great too, but Yamaha's exclusive processing tends to keep tham ahead of the field. One option is to mix and match a pre/power to suit you - Rotel, Arcam, Onkyo and Lexicon all produce pre-amp/processors. They can be partnered with multi-channel power amplifiers from Rotel, Arcam, Lexicon, Bryston, ATC, and Denon. So you could make a pre/power to suit your price point and needs as far as the speaker package is concerned - one thing you need to get right is to make sure the speakers are driven properly - if they're not, you may as well spend £5k.

David what about the option of going with the Z11 as a processor and getting a power amplifier to drive the speakers like the way the_ force has done? what difference will that make in the sound be it in processing or power output.would it come close to Arcam pre/power combo or any other afore mentioned?i seem to be torn between the Kefs and the platinums.will be doing some more auditioning this weekend

 

[Anonymous]

Also - Edinburgh has 2 great dealers - I travel up from London where Dad lives to use their demo rooms. Sorry I can't buy my kit here, so will give them a good shout and worth the trip as they both cover different bases:

Edinburgh Home Cinema Centre (they are on forums and are good and get involved), serious knowledge in that store without trying to push their own agenda. They educated me away from KEF Reference because it wasn't the sound I liked, even though they stock the full range (quite rare). The listening room is compromised which gives a good real world understanding of effects that are likely to happen at home with advice on solving problems. They don't stock Platinums which is a shame, but the Dali range is awesome as are their sub woofer collection with REL and more.

James Morrow - great personal service and have Platinums and Linn and some other nice bits. Good listening room too.

Other hifi stores in Edinburgh - sh*te - "we don't sell MA Platinums because the B&W's give the same sound" from one - their part timers.

 

[Anonymous]

I would stick with pureplay processor like an Arcam AV 888 - the quality is there and your wasting money.

Sevenoaks Brighton were giving you the matching power amp for free when you bought the processor - while back now - but worth negotiating on price

 

[Anonymous]

Something worth mentioning that Wooly highlighted. The Kef's would be even less fussy about placement than the MA platinums. The Kef's are front ported, not rear, and with the Uni-q array's superb wide off-axis response you don't even need to toe them in.

 

[TheHomeCinemaCentre]

Hi Legit - I mis-read your previous post and really mirror what David says, you will find that we tend to agree on the way to approach the system and the combinations that work. Each has a particular sound that you need to choose but there are systems that work time and time again.

For subs the Trusub EQ from Sunfire or one of the large MKs would be a good starting point. The matching KEF sub will destroy your budget so it makes sense to look at other brands. These are the same subs we would match into the PMC set up if that is your preference.

 

[Frank Harvey]

We've dealt with a few in store over the years - a few we no longer keep in the store if they're not up with the best. Many people will just choose the matching sub for the speakers as many want the package to match and fit in with the living room. So, depending on budget, you could look at matching subs for the packages you're thinking of.

The MA Platinum sub is a monster. 1000w driving a hefty 15" driver - that's enough to fill any room! Beautiful finish, really looks the part. If I were buying the Platinum package, I'd find it hard not to go with the matching PLW15.

KEF make a couple for theirs, although one would be out of budget - 1000w driving an 18" driver in one of the biggest cabinets I've seen a sub use. But at £7k, it's close to half the budget. The 208 is a little more affordable, and even though it uses a 12" driver with half the power, it's still no slouch. Again, these look as beautiful as the speakers themselves, and f it's going on show, it's hard to buy a big square box instead.

Our main subs, reardless of the speaker package being used, are the MK's. Usually, the MK's will be partnered with their own speakers, because they do some things many other subs don't do, but these 'things' are irrelevant with non MK speakers. The main reason i that they produce a lot of 'slam', or punch. You may think that all subs do this, but most subs are designed to deal with frequencies below 80Hz, and many just concentrate so much on getting as low as possible that they neglect the higher frequencies, which does produce slam. Also, I tend to find that hi-fi speakers lack this slam characteristic for movies, so it's down to the sub to do this.

Also, MK subs are sealed. This gives them the advantage of being more room friendly, and placing them isn't so much of a chore as a ported sub. Ported subs will reach a little deeper, but they will do so in a more uneven manner than a sealed one, and because of this, sealed subs have an advantage in the speed and control stakes, an advantage which benefts music and movies. It all boils down to whether someone wants 'rumble', or 'punch'.

The MK subs aren't so pretty to look at, and don't come in the fancy finishes the speakers do, but they're designed for one purpose. Another advantage over the others mentioned is that they use two 12" drivers in a push/pull configuration.

Again, only a listen will convince you which ones are right for you.

 

[Anonymous]

FrankHarveyHiFi:

KEF make a couple for theirs, although one would be out of budget - 1000w driving an 18" driver in one of the biggest cabinets I've seen a sub use. But at £7k, it's close to half the budget.

The very same I was referring to. It's a beast ! I remember some peeps complaining of the price and diminishing returns etc., but...what a sub.

 

[Frank Harvey]

woollyjoe: I would stick with pureplay processor like an Arcam AV 888 - the quality is there and your wasting money.

Sevenoaks Brighton were giving you the matching power amp for free when you bought the processor - while back now - but worth negotiating on price

Sevenoaks Brighton are no longer an Arcam FMJ dealer.

 

[Frank Harvey]

THE_FORCE:The very same I was referring to. It's a beast ! I remember some peeps complaining of the price and diminishing returns etc., but...what a sub.

We had the 208 set up at last years musical evening, but the yea before we used the 209 - one thing you can say when it's set up correctly - you really aren't aware it's there. It doesn't draw atention to itself in the way you would expect it to. Amazing sub - I'd have one if I could afford it. And house it!!

 

[Frank Harvey]

legit:David what about the option of going with the Z11 as a processor and getting a power amplifier to drive the speakers like the way the_ force has done? what difference will that make in the sound be it in processing or power output.would it come close to Arcam pre/power combo or any other afore mentioned?i seem to be torn between the Kefs and the platinums.will be doing some more auditioning this weekend

I think that's the route I'd take. Initially, you could look at just a Z11, then add a power amp at a later date, which could allow you to put a little extra money into a better sub, or better front speakers, depending on your financial situation and whether or not you just want to do this in one go and be done with it.

For me, the only way to from a Z11 and Reference package is to add a nice meaty power amplifier to get more from the speakers. It's a little bit of a waste as you'll have 11 channels of amplification in the Z11 sitting there doing nothing,

Force uses his Rotel power amps to improve on his Denon 4308 amplification. In the case of the Z11, these would give a different presentation, but not exactly enough of an improve to warrant the outlay. To improve the Z11's amplification you'd be looking at Lexicon or Bryston, which is another league, and then worth the extra cash. Bryston and KEF Reference are an amazing partnering. Are you listening Force?

There's so many variables at play here you really do need to speak to a dealer. One option is to save a couple of £k and use a Z7 as a processor, which may allow you to get a top notch power amplifier in the first place. With Bluray players and AV amps/processors being the item more likely to change, you could invest a little less in those and little more into amplification and speakers that haven't changed drastically for decades. Later on, you could then add whatever top notch processor is around at the time.

 

[TheHomeCinemaCentre]

woollyjoe:

Also - Edinburgh has 2 great dealers - I travel up from London where Dad lives to use their demo rooms. Sorry I can't buy my kit here, so will give them a good shout and worth the trip as they both cover different bases:

Edinburgh Home Cinema Centre (they are on forums and are good and get involved), serious knowledge in that store without trying to push their own agenda. They educated me away from KEF Reference because it wasn't the sound I liked, even though they stock the full range (quite rare). The listening room is compromised which gives a good real world understanding of effects that are likely to happen at home with advice on solving problems. They don't stock Platinums which is a shame, but the Dali range is awesome as are their sub woofer collection with REL and more.

Thank you very much for your kind comments

 

[TheHomeCinemaCentre]

THE_FORCE:FrankHarveyHiFi:

KEF make a couple for theirs, although one would be out of budget - 1000w driving an 18" driver in one of the biggest cabinets I've seen a sub use. But at £7k, it's close to half the budget.

The very same I was referring to. It's a beast ! I remember some peeps complaining of the price and diminishing returns etc., but...what a sub.

The 209 is indeed a beast - it disappears in the system and is the real icing on the cake. We have it here and even in our demonstration room which is not huge it is far from overkill. A joy .

 

[Anonymous]

FrankHarveyHiFi:
Bryston and KEF Reference are an amazing partnering. Are you listening Force?

Lol. You know what, I bet they are. But why can't they change their logo ? It looks like a font from an old ZX Spectrum game pmsl.

 

[Anonymous]

FrankHarveyHiFi:

We've dealt with a few in store over the years - a few we no longer keep in the store if they're not up with the best. Many people will just choose the matching sub for the speakers as many want the package to match and fit in with the living room. So, depending on budget, you could look at matching subs for the packages you're thinking of.

The MA Platinum sub is a monster. 1000w driving a hefty 15" driver - that's enough to fill any room! Beautiful finish, really looks the part. If I were buying the Platinum package, I'd find it hard not to go with the matching PLW15.

KEF make a couple for theirs, although one would be out of budget - 1000w driving an 18" driver in one of the biggest cabinets I've seen a sub use. But at £7k, it's close to half the budget. The 208 is a little more affordable, and even though it uses a 12" driver with half the power, it's still no slouch. Again, these look as beautiful as the speakers themselves, and f it's going on show, it's hard to buy a big square box instead.

Our main subs, reardless of the speaker package being used, are the MK's. Usually, the MK's will be partnered with their own speakers, because they do some things many other subs don't do, but these 'things' are irrelevant with non MK speakers. The main reason i that they produce a lot of 'slam', or punch. You may think that all subs do this, but most subs are designed to deal with frequencies below 80Hz, and many just concentrate so much on getting as low as possible that they neglect the higher frequencies, which does produce slam. Also, I tend to find that hi-fi speakers lack this slam characteristic for movies, so it's down to the sub to do this.

Also, MK subs are sealed. This gives them the advantage of being more room friendly, and placing them isn't so much of a chore as a ported sub. Ported subs will reach a little deeper, but they will do so in a more uneven manner than a sealed one, and because of this, sealed subs have an advantage in the speed and control stakes, an advantage which benefts music and movies. It all boils down to whether someone wants 'rumble', or 'punch'.

The MK subs aren't so pretty to look at, and don't come in the fancy finishes the speakers do, but they're designed for one purpose. Another advantage over the others mentioned is that they use two 12" drivers in a push/pull configuration.

Again, only a listen will convince you which ones are right for you.

i can accomodate £2500 for the subwoofer duties as it will fall within the price range of the PLW15,PMC TLE,MX350.

To David, Nick you guys really know your stuff in the trade. i must say in just two days i have learnt and still continue to learn a lot of things from all the forum members.

its a delight and hopefully at the end of it i will have a wonderful set up.

David side by side performance is the MX350 better than the PLW15 as i seem to want the best perfomance with this sort of money i am spending.

newcastle to coventry(207.2 miles)hmmm

newcastle to edinburgh(121 miles) hmmmmm

 

[Frank Harvey]

But when you see that old skool logo deeply machined out of the chunky aluminium facia, it looks the canine's love spuds. If we chose everything on looks, we'd all have LG all in one 5.1 wireless systems in our living rooms

 

[Anonymous]

FrankHarveyHiFi:

We've dealt with a few in store over the years - a few we no longer keep in the store if they're not up with the best. Many people will just choose the matching sub for the speakers as many want the package to match and fit in with the living room. So, depending on budget, you could look at matching subs for the packages you're thinking of.

The MA Platinum sub is a monster. 1000w driving a hefty 15" driver - that's enough to fill any room! Beautiful finish, really looks the part. If I were buying the Platinum package, I'd find it hard not to go with the matching PLW15.

KEF make a couple for theirs, although one would be out of budget - 1000w driving an 18" driver in one of the biggest cabinets I've seen a sub use. But at £7k, it's close to half the budget. The 208 is a little more affordable, and even though it uses a 12" driver with half the power, it's still no slouch. Again, these look as beautiful as the speakers themselves, and f it's going on show, it's hard to buy a big square box instead.

Our main subs, reardless of the speaker package being used, are the MK's. Usually, the MK's will be partnered with their own speakers, because they do some things many other subs don't do, but these 'things' are irrelevant with non MK speakers. The main reason i that they produce a lot of 'slam', or punch. You may think that all subs do this, but most subs are designed to deal with frequencies below 80Hz, and many just concentrate so much on getting as low as possible that they neglect the higher frequencies, which does produce slam. Also, I tend to find that hi-fi speakers lack this slam characteristic for movies, so it's down to the sub to do this.

Also, MK subs are sealed. This gives them the advantage of being more room friendly, and placing them isn't so much of a chore as a ported sub. Ported subs will reach a little deeper, but they will do so in a more uneven manner than a sealed one, and because of this, sealed subs have an advantage in the speed and control stakes, an advantage which benefts music and movies. It all boils down to whether someone wants 'rumble', or 'punch'.

The MK subs aren't so pretty to look at, and don't come in the fancy finishes the speakers do, but they're designed for one purpose. Another advantage over the others mentioned is that they use two 12" drivers in a push/pull configuration.

Again, only a listen will convince you which ones are right for you.

will audition the Pmc and Platinums this weekend at the back of Z11/Arcam 888/777

will see how it goes.

Dave have you got all the speakers and electronics taked about in your demonstration rooms?

 

[Frank Harvey]

legit:To David, Nick you guys really know your stuff in the trade. i must say in just two days i have learnt and still continue to learn a lot of things from all the forum members.

It's a continual thing - been doing it for 20 years and there's always something to learn!!

its a delight and hopefully at the end of it i will have a wonderful set up.

It'll be stunning!!

David side by side performance is the MX350 better than the PLW15 as i seem to want the best perfomance with this sort of money i am spending.

They're very different. The MK excels in slam and punch, whereas the hi-fi subs concentrate on the frequencies below those that produce punch - this is because in the case of th MA and KEF speakers, their subs are designed to go with quite large floorstanders tha dig quite deep already. MK speakers cut off at 80Hz, and are usually crossed over a little higher, so their subs are designed to deal with frequencies up to 80Hz and far beyond just as well as the do below. This is pretty unique to MK, and it shows in the way they sound. Many people want loads of rumble and the room to be moving beneath their feet - others want to feel the kick in their chest.

I can tell you about their differences all day, but at the end of the day you have to choose what you prefer the sound of. If you like what the MX350 does, you'll also like what the MK speakers do. But that's another can of worms....

 

[Frank Harvey]

legit:Dave have you got all the speakers and electronics taked about in your demonstration rooms?

Without looking back over the thread and checking everything, yes we do. Any bits and bobs we don't, we can get hold of - just let me know if you want to hear anything specific.