WOW Factor on a budget please

[Neman]

New on here - advice please.

Looking to upgrade my 10 year old system - Rotel ra-01 amp, CA Azur 640 CD player, Monitor Audio RS 1 speakers. Only used now for streaming via Apple airport express and vinyl on my newly acquired Project Carbon Debut Espirit. Enjoy the vinyl but streaming directly to the Rotel sounds poor.

Priorities therefore a decent phono stage and DAC (for both streaming via airport express and directly from MacBook). CD player a bonus but not essential.

Large room (40 ft with 10ft ceiling) with wooden floor.

Budget limited to £1250 so have been looking 2nd hand. Obvious choice seems Rega Brio-r and DAC. Then what speakers? Keen on floor standers due to size of room. Other thoughts:

- Roksan Kandy K2 or Arcam a18 with Audiolab 8200 cd/dac.

- Or perhaps Pioneer a-70 or Marantz pm8500 which have both phono stage and DAC in one unit.

Again, what speakers?

What will give the most bang for buck, and what should I look to change first?

Your advice v much appreciated.

 

[dim_span]

LOL ... my suggestions are going to be equipment older than what you have (but I love old good hifi)

Speakers: Yamaha NS1000M .... expect to pay £800 for a good pair but you have to be a bit patient on ebay

Amp: YAMAHA CR 2020 receiver .... expect to pay approx £400 for a good one ... you have an amp with 105 Watts @ 8 Ohm that also has the 1st watts in Class A ....

you have a good tuner, and it's excellent for phono ... and you don't need a headphone amp ....

and it looks good:

that works out to approx £1200 .... for the remaining £50, buy a cheap Beringer dac

I would like to see what the other guys suggest for £1250 ...

the receiver and speakers work very well together and this is what I am planning to get soon

and, in 10 years time when you want a change, you will get much more for them than what you paid

if you need to service the amp in a few years time, there is a company in the UK that is expert with these receivers .... costs approx £300 for a full service to bring it to the same specs as when it was new ....

 

[Neman]

Great suggestion. Hadn't considered vintage. Amp would also look great in our room (not sure if speakers would get the aesthetics seal of approval required though).

Is the CR2020 a better bet than the cheaper 1020?

And what potential problems to look out for on older equipment?

 

[dim_span]

Great suggestion. Hadn't considered vintage. Amp would also look great in our room (not sure if speakers would get the aesthetics seal of approval required though).

Is the CR2020 a better bet than the cheaper 1020?

And what potential problems to look out for on older equipment?

YUP ... the 2020 is much better ... if you can afford the CR-3020 even better, but they are rarer

The Yamaha NS1000m are not too bad looking (your wife will appreciate them more after she hears them) ...

read the reviews

I have heard this combo and it's very good ..

check the pics of the wooden top of the amp .... if it has a dark brown burn mark, then you know it's over heated .... ask the seller if there are any crackles etc when he uses the volume control etc .... if there are de-oxit will most prob fix that ....

and make sure that you are getting an original one that has not been recapped/modified, and that is in mint condition externaly ....

same for the speakers .... and check the serial numbers to make sure that they are matched

the amp and speakers work very well together and this is the system I will be getting soon .... .

 

[richardw42]

Now is a great time to look at buying 2nd hand AVI ADM9. They have several updated versions, £500-£800 would get a nice pair.

They are active speaker and include a very good DAC & pre amp. They have 2 x optical and 1 analogue RCA INPUT and come with a remote control.

so your CDP in one optical, your AEX in the other.

Then get a phono stage to sit between your turntable and the speakers.

They'll blow that vintage legacy stuff out of the water.

 

[dim_span]

Now is a great time to look at buying 2nd hand AVI ADM9. They have several updated versions, £500-£800 would get a nice pair.

They are active speaker and include a very good DAC & pre amp. They have 2 x optical and 1 analogue RCA INPUT and come with a remote control.

so your CDP in one optical, your AEX in the other.

Then get a phono stage to sit between your turntable and the speakers.

They'll blow that vintage legacy stuff out of the water.

good suggestion .... never heard the AVI, bit I do remember a few years ago that the owner of AVI was spamming forums .... many said they are good ... and many said they have poor bass

 

[richardw42]

The bass isn't poor, but of course stand mounts will have certain limitations due to size.

I have AVIs myself and they are much better than anything I previously owned.

You should have a lurk on the AVI Forum, you'll see there's a lot of normal folk on there

 

[richardw42]

In fact all the poor comments seem to have come from professional keyboard warriors. All the reviews I've seen have been very good.

 

[richardw42]

'Wow factor' on a budget of £1250 to play just one digital source = buy some active speakers. Wish I had it all do do again. As it stands I have too much money invested in depreciated 'legacy' kit, purchased over a period of many years, and which would raise comparativel little even if I sold it all. But if I could do it all again with the same cash that bought it, there'd be no question.

Yes, AVI aren't the only active answer. I read it as 3 sources. Mac, cdp & TT.

 

[MajorFubar]

Buy some active speakers. Wish I had it all do do again. As it stands I have too much money invested in depreciated 'legacy' kit, purchased over a period of many years, and which would raise comparativel little even if I sold it all. But if I could do it all again with the same cash that bought it, there'd be no question.

 

[MajorFubar]

Yeah I corrected it. And yes, AVI are not the only answer of course. There are many companies making active speakers. I just personally favour it as an approach. It's where my money would go if I had it all to do again with the same cash that bought all my current gear.

 

[dim_span]

Heck ... I'm confused now ...

so, what are you guys saying ....

AVI (small stand mounts) are much better than Yamaha NS-1000M ? (and that being in a large listening room?)

 

[Neman]

Thanks for the advice. Really useful. 2 very different approaches.

re:AVI ADMs - will these be capable of filling the large room? What other active speakers would you recommend?

should I assume that the combos I was considering in my first post won't be enough of a step up (Wow factor)?

 

[richardw42]

I'd say they'd fill the space easily enough, they certainly beat the RS1 easily.

People get a bit hung up on bass, thinking big driver = big bass. That's not the full story and the first time I heard the speakers I got it.

 

[EvPa]

What other active speakers would you recommend?

As you seem to be keen to floor standers and would appreciate something somewhat eye-pleasing:

http://www.thomann.de/intl/adam_artist_6_hochglanz_schwarz.htm

http://www.thomann.de/intl/adam_artist_6_glossy_white.htm

I can personally vouch for these as I currently have them in my house in a room much bigger than yours, including a ~24ft ceiling (though it should be noted that I also have a subwoofer).

Their original price is GBP 550 per speaker but there are great deals currently through Thomann.de (even lower prices if you don't mind B-stock items); let's say GBP 600 for a pair of these and you will have quite a lot of money left for other pieces of kit.

I can also recommend a few bookshelf speakers such as nubert's nuPro A300 (which looks like a "normal" speaker but come with remote control, GBP 780/pair) or the "studio look" Neumann KH120A (GBP 940/pair).

 

[lindsayt]

Now is a great time to look at buying 2nd hand AVI ADM9. They have several updated versions, £500-£800 would get a nice pair.

They are active speaker and include a very good DAC & pre amp. They have 2 x optical and 1 analogue RCA INPUT and come with a remote control.

so your CDP in one optical, your AEX in the other.

Then get a phono stage to sit between your turntable and the speakers.

They'll blow that vintage legacy stuff out of the water.

Bake-off! Bake-off! Bake-off!

I challenge you to a bake-off.

Back up your statement with a demonstration.

Flat, boring, unmusical ADM 9's vs dynamic, fun, musical vintage legacy stuff.

 

[lindsayt]

Heck ... I'm confused now ...

so, what are you guys saying ....

AVI (small stand mounts) are much better than Yamaha NS-1000M ? (and that being in a large listening room?)

Yes.

The AVI ADM9 will fill a large room without breaking a sweat. They have massive headroom (325 watts per speaker) some of the best drivers available at any price and will go very very loud.

If you can stretch your budget to £1500 the brand new DM10 replacement of the old ADM9 version has just come out and should be worth the extra money. If your budget won't stretch that far then there are lots of existing ADM9 owners upgrading to DM10's at the moment so second hand ADM9's are selling cheaper than usual and can be picked up for under £800 (the ADM9 'RS' is the newest version of the old ADM9 and is the one to go for).

Stop telling lies / making grossly misleading statements.

ADM 9's do not have 325 watts of amplification. Not continuous into 8 ohm loads with less than 1% THD+N. The amplifier for the mid-bass cone is only about 70 watts when defined in these terms, with the tweeter amplifier having less power than that.

 

[steve_1979]

Stop telling lies / making grossly misleading statements.

ADM 9's do not have 325 watts of amplification. Not continuous into 8 ohm loads with less than 1% THD+N. The amplifier for the mid-bass cone is only about 70 watts when defined in these terms, with the tweeter amplifier having less power than that.

No lies just going off what it says on the AVI website:

"75 WPC for the tweeters and 250 WPC for the bass drivers. System distortion is typically better than 0.002%." Clicky

I haven't taken/seen any measurements so I have no way of verifying this other than taking AVI at their word but I have heard them and can confirm that they do have a massive dynamic range and go really bloody loud! Much louder than you'd expect a 6.5" two-way speaker to be able to go. I'd be in fear of damaging my hearing if I played them at full volume for more than a couple of minutes.

More importantly than that is that they go loud without compressing, distorting or changing their sound in any way. Unlike most hifi they sound the same at high volume as they do at low volume, just louder.

 

[relocated]

OP,

Yet another AVI recommendation here. In your shoes I would pull the extra bit of money together and order the ADM 10s. However the last model 9 [9RS], as has been said, can be picked up for seriously less money than normal.

There is such a gulf between the quality of music reproduction delivered by properly implemented 'actives' over traditional passives and AVI are an exemplar of the art. Sadly some people cannot appreciate the difference, or just will not appreciate it; prefering to live in nostalgia-land [which is fine if that's your bag] and give confusing advice when they do know better.

Have a chat to owners over on the AVI forum, it will be well worth the effort. I look forward to your company there.

 

[dim_span]

you can buy AVI for cheap directly from China from teric.cn:

I will have a demo with these AVI as many who own them seem happy.

I will be surprised if they are better than the Yamaha NS1000M (some who own the Yamaha say that they are like a giant pair of headphones .... only better) ....

I've heard the Yamaha and they are very good...

 

[relocated]

you can buy AVI for cheap directly from China from teric.cn:

I will have a demo with these AVI as many who own them seem happy.

I will be surprised if they are better than the Yamaha NS1000M (some who own the Yamaha say that they are like a giant pair of headphones .... only better) ....

I've heard the Yamaha and they are very good...

In their day they were exceptionally good speakers and I have had many hours listening to them, but never owned them. From long memory they would give a hell of a lot of modern passives more than a slap. When I returned to stereo I was astonished at how modern passives were little/no better and many were worse.

Things move on and modern actives just out-perform passives, full stop.

 

[davedotco]

Getting something special, wow factor and all, given the budget and the room size will not be easy.

Buying used equipment could well be a way forward but you really need to know your stuff, just picking up items on recomendation or price is the s/h equivilent of buying 5* products on line and expecting to get a good system.

Whilst there are some remarkable bargains to be had on the used market a lot of the equipment is, as ever, quite mediocre. Reputations are enhanced through chat and hearsay and thoroughly average components like the Yamaha speakers achieve a kind of cult status they really do not deserve.

If you are going to stick with 'conventional' options than a pair of decent sized floor standers should be your first thought, look for something affordable with a sensitivity in excess of 90dB/w. Use the Q Acoustics 2050i as a starting point, a lot of speaker for the money if you have the space, which it appears you do. Add an integrated with some power, 100wpc or better, maybe an older Rotel 1500 series or similar and you may still have some money left for the odds and sods.

Active speakers would be an excellent choice, but you need to know the score and system building (ADM9 apart) requires some thought with active speakers. A serious alternative would be a pair of Yamaha HS8 actives with a Marantz NR-1504, cheap enough to leave you with money over for a phono stage etc, powerful enough to fill the room. Does require a different way of looking at things though.

 

[dim_span]

you can buy AVI for cheap directly from China from teric.cn:

I will have a demo with these AVI as many who own them seem happy.

I will be surprised if they are better than the Yamaha NS1000M (some who own the Yamaha say that they are like a giant pair of headphones .... only better) ....

I've heard the Yamaha and they are very good...

In their day they were exceptionally good speakers and I have had many hours listening to them, but never owned them. From long memory they would give a hell of a lot of modern passives more than a slap. When I returned to stereo I was astonished at how modern passives were little/no better and many were worse.

Things move on and modern actives just out-perform passives, full stop.

maybe it's a bit diffivcult to comprehend especially if one is used to very good old speakers such as transmissions, Electroststics etc

Looking at the AVI, they sort of remind me of my logitec pc speakers but wharefdale diamond size

Take the cost of the AVI, add the AVI subwoofer and decent stands and the cost of this becomes high.

If I can, I will have a listen to them though as many who own them seem very passionate about them

 

[steve_1979]

Heck ... I'm confused now ...

so, what are you guys saying ....

AVI (small stand mounts) are much better than Yamaha NS-1000M ? (and that being in a large listening room?)

Yes.

The AVI ADM9 will fill a large room without breaking a sweat. They have massive headroom (325 watts per speaker) and some of the best drivers available at any price and will go very very loud.

If you can stretch your budget to £1500 the brand new DM10 replacement of the old ADM9 version has just come out and should be worth the extra money. If your budget won't stretch that far then there are lots of existing ADM9 owners upgrading to DM10's at the moment so second hand ADM9's are selling cheaper than usual and can be picked up for under £800 (the ADM9 'RS' is the newest version of the old ADM9 and is the one to go for).

 

[Neman]

AVI certainly seem to have caused a stir on the forums. Hadn't considered this option but am now interested in finding out more. With my budget, used AVIs and a phono pre-amp looks a sensible option.

One question nagging me though - if active speakers really are the future, why is the market not now flooded with hifi standard actives?