WOW Factor on a budget please

[lindsayt]

Heck ... I'm confused now ...

so, what are you guys saying ....

AVI (small stand mounts) are much better than Yamaha NS-1000M ? (and that being in a large listening room?)

Yes.

The AVI ADM9 will fill a large room without breaking a sweat. They have massive headroom (325 watts per speaker) and some of the best drivers available at any price and will go very very loud.

If you can stretch your budget to £1500 the brand new DM10 replacement of the old ADM9 version has just come out and should be worth the extra money. If your budget won't stretch that far then there are lots of existing ADM9 owners upgrading to DM10's at the moment so second hand ADM9's are selling cheaper than usual and can be picked up for under £800 (the ADM9 'RS' is the newest version of the old ADM9 and is the one to go for).

And can you please enlighten us as to when you compared a pair of Yamaha NS-1000M's against a pair of ADM 9's in a large room?

If you haven't done so, can you please enlighten us on what basis you made such a clear cut and definitive statement that the ADM 9's are much better than the NS-1000M's?

Thank-you Steve.

I think we can all draw our own conclusions about your refusal to answer my questions about your Yamaha vs ADM 9 listening experience.

My conclusion at the moment is that you have never compared the 2 speakers. And I therefore find it quite disgusting that you stated so definitively that the ADM 9's sound much better than the Yamahas. When the reality appears to be that you don't have a clue how they would sound relative to each other.

 

[relocated]

Ha. Apples and oranges surely. Torn between the two. Reason I've got back into hifi is the new TT reviving my vinyl. Seems right that should be paired with the vintage stuff. But if honest, most listening these days streamed from spot oft via AEX - for which the AVIs sound the ideal match.

Oh to be able to demo them both....

Neman, I chose my words carefully and deliberately. The gulf between the two is that large. When I returned to stereo, I auditioned a great deal of modern passive kit with speakers alone running to over £10k. No-one had or even mentioned active speakers, I had forgotten about them and their ridiculously overpriced products presented years ago by Meridien, Linn etc.

The sound I was presented with was at best mediocre to poor with some notable brands being dreadful. I was told at one emporia, that I was listening to "the wrong sort of music", NO word of a lie I promise you. I resolved that I would have to go back to a headphone system to move forward with stereo music.

I had been keeping up to date with things via WHF and forums and was intrigued by the vitriolic bullying of people [particularly here] that dared to mention 'active speakers' and it got ridiculous when AVI was mentioned. I detest bullying and so I laid out £1075 on a pair of 9Ts [my wife has them as her system] from Bartletts to see what the fuss was about. There was nothing to lose, if they were as the bullies said then I just had to pay the return postage.

They were sensational, they still are. There could never, ever be a return to conventional passive. I BLESS the day those speakers came into my life, they are that important.

 

[bluedroog]

Good stuff, glad to hear it. I’ve never heard any AVI speakers but am tempted to pick up a used pair (when do the DM10s come out by the way?) as I think they represent good value. My first foray in to actives were a pair of KRK Rokit 10-3s given to me and I have recently upgraded to Event Opals. I’ve also just sold my trusty Quad 909 power amp so really can’t see myself going back to the passive route now. Not that there is anything wrong with it I just think active makes more sense and is the path I’ve now chosen.

I think now thought I’ve got to a point where room acoustics are my most limiting factor, I’m so tempted to bring them in to work over a weekend where I’ve got a better space and can crank them up.

 

[relocated]

Bluedroog,

I think the first batch are due out @ April and 3 build batches are already ordered, IIRC. Event Opals are some piece of kit, though I haven't heard them, and it will be very interesting to know how they perform overall and differ at work than home. Perhaps you will share your experience in the future.

 

[steve_1979]

I challenge you to a bake-off...

...And would you be willing to take a bet on which has the greater dynamic range / goes louder?

Sorry lindsayt but this is all starting to get a bit school playgroundish and I've got more pressing things to attend to like eating dinner and watching TV.

Enjoy your evening. *drinks*

 

[steve_1979]

Thank-you Steve.

I think we can all draw our own conclusions about your refusal to answer my questions about your Yamaha vs ADM 9 listening experience.

My conclusion at the moment is that you have never compared the 2 speakers. And I therefore find it quite disgusting that you stated so definitively that the ADM 9's sound much better than the Yamahas. When the reality appears to be that you don't have a clue how they would sound relative to each other.

Ok I'll allow myself to be drawn in for just one post but I really can't be bothered (or have the time) to get drawn into one of 'those' circular forum arguments.

To answer your question, no I haven't heard the Yamaha's so can't make a driect comparison from experience. I have however heard an older version of the ADM9 and think that it's one of the best speakers around and is capable of going loud enough to fill a large room with ease.

I also own the smaller and newer AVI DM5's plus AVI subwoofer and it's the best system that I've ever heard bar none. This includes comparisons to top of the range 2 and 3 way active systems costing upto £10,000 from Genelec, Adam and Quested to mention a few and comparisons to both old and new regular passive hifi systems costing even more than that.

The Yamaha may have been one of the best in it's time but it's old and things have moved on and improved especially where driver design is concerned. The ADM's are new and use the best and most modern drivers available. They're active so won't have the boom and tizz (I cringed as I wrote that bit ) or have the mid-range fuzz and crossover phase problems that all passives suffer from. They'll also certainly have more headroom than any amplifier the OP is likely to be able to use if he gets the Yamaha's.

There are many users on the AVI forum who've upgraded from £10k+ regular hifi systems and haven't looked back since. The view held by almost all of the people who own ADM's is that they're the best speakers that they've heard. That this view is almost unanimously held by everyone who actually owns ADM's should tell you something.

The ADM's don't sound dull and boring as you put it they're just undistorted, clear and smooth. They just sound 'right'.

 

[Vladimir]

I would love to own either the NS1000 or the ADM9. The Yamaha would get me into more positive conversations and peer envy than AVI (only thing worse than buying B&Ws, apparently). I have faith AVI will sound overall much better than the Yammie, considering I haven't heard the ADM9 and I heard the unbalanced tonal presentation of the NS1000. However, I think the Yamaha will edge it out on certain things with its Beryllium drivers. Those drivers are very close (or better?) to electrostats in transient speed and clean sound. That old gal is not without aces in its sleeve/brassiere.

In my mind ADM9 vs NS1000M:

Bass 1:0

Lower Midrange 1:0

Upper Midrange 0:1

Treble 0:1

Transients 0:1

Imaging 1:0

Cool factor 0:1

Build quality 0:1

Listening fatigue 1:0

Timbre (mainly richness in string instruments) 1:0

5:5 - Technically it's a tie in my mind. When I hear a pair of ADM9s I'll confirm if any of this presumed differences are audble to me.

 

[tonky]

those Yamaha NS1000 (And I've vever even heard them!) Cult status or what!

tonky - formerly known as anderson

 

[davedotco]

those Yamaha NS1000 (And I've never even heard them!) Cult status or what!

tonky - formerly known as anderson

This is vet much the point as they look fantastic but in reality they are actually quite odd speakers. Despite their three way design they have a pronounced 'smiley' response that mimics some of the successful speakers of their day, think big JBL two ways of the mid 70s, unfortunately the sensitivity was not that great so they were neither loud enough or dynamic enough to compete, either in the home or the studio.

Given the technology they really should have been better than they were, but the big beryllium midrange dome broke up quite badly which perhaps explains the relatively low level midrange and crossed over to early to the tweeter, hence the brightness.

They were though quite clear and seemingly transparent at low levels but when pushed 'boomed and tizzed', or as one eminent reviewer of the time described them, 'umph - beryllium'.

 

[Vladimir]

I thought the whole point of Beryllium is to surpass any other material pushing the break-up mode higher up in frequency.

Interesting read: THE WHOLE TRUTH ABOUT BERYLLIUM DIAPHRAGMS (pdf)

NS1000M with a smiley face EQ? *scratch_one-s_head* IME they were painfully flat, lacking in sub bass for such a large speaker. Not really the fun west coast sound of JBLs.

 

[dim_span]

LOL .... back to the original question ..... The OP wanted a system for £1250 .... must look good/Wow factor and must be good with phono

for the budget of £1250, I recomended the Yamaha CR2020 amp and the Yamaha NS-1000M .... that can be had for the £1250 and obviously, if the budget is greater, then that changes the whole scenario and there will be much better equipment... but for £1250, it's a pretty good system (old system) if the amp and speakers are in good condition

it's old gear, but the 2 work very well together.... and it looks good

This is I will be buying as I have heard this combo, and too am looking for another system with the budget of approx £1200.... hence my suggestion ...

The Yamaha NS1000M needs to be partnered correctly (from what I have read from other owners).... They need a good tube amp or a class A amp to perform at their best. The Yamaha CR-2020 is an A/B switching amp (i.e. the 1st few watts are in class A). It has a very good phono stage (which the OP of this thread said was an important criteria), plus it is good for headphones (no headphone amp required) .... and on top of that, it has a decent tuner, and it's very cheap for what you get. (If you want a good old amp for cheap, have a look at the old receivers instead of amps.... bargains)

The NS-1000M speakers are the best that I have heard for imaging, but saying that, I have not heard any of the new expensive speakers

Some on this thread are saying that they 'boom and tizz' and the bass (from the 12 in bass drivers) are bad. Maybe if connected to a 40 Watt amp but definately not with the CR-2020 amp.(105 Watts @ 8 Ohms) ... and the CR-2020 has tone controls (that actually work proper so you can fine adjust to your personal taste) ... The speakers also need to be adjusted with the controls on the speakers and placed correctly in the room

I have only heard the NS-1000M partnered with the CR-2020. I would love to hear them with a better amp. After I have this system for a while, I will upgrade the amp.

here are the specs of the NS-1000M:
SpecificationsMaximum Input capacity: 100 WSound Pressure Level: 90 dB/W/mFrequency Response: 40 - 20,000 HzDrivers units:Tweeter : 30 mm beryllium domeMidrange : 88 mm beryllium domeWoofer : 300 mm coneDimensions (H x W x D): 675 x 375 x 326 mmWeight: 31 kgFinish: Satin BlackAlso available deluxe model NS-1000Dimensions (H x W x D): 710 x 395 x 349 mmWeight: 39 kg

I have not heard the AVI, but will definately try and audition them .... I prefer the older gear, and find that most of the modern speakers (that I have heard) are a bit too bright for my taste.... My current speakers are B&W DM2 transmissions ... (which I will keep and connect to the tv) ....

I might get the AVI as a second system at a later stage (if it is as good as everyone says and is better than £10 000 systems as quoted), .... they could make an excellent bedroom system connected to the tv and spotify.

I have not heard or read much about how good the AVI are with a turntable though but 300 Watts@8 Ohms (or did someone say they are 250 ?) ... it should sound awesome with a deck

normally when I think of an amp of 250+ watts, I visualise an old Krell or McIntosh monster that generates excessive heat. So when I try and imagine a 40Kg Bryston amp crammed into a speaker box the size of my wharefedale diamonds (with a dac squeezed in aswell, and 2 drivers) I am amazed and have to hear these (maybe it's a car stereo amp?)

 

[davedotco]

I thought the whole point of Beryllium is to surpass any other material pushing the break-up mode higher up in frequency.

Interesting read: THE WHOLE TRUTH ABOUT BERYLLIUM DIAPHRAGMS (pdf)

NS1000M with a smiley face EQ? *scratch_one-s_head* IME they were painfully flat, lacking in sub bass for such a large speaker. Not really the fun west coast sound of JBLs.

Beryllium is a difficult material to work with and (we thought) the breakup in the big dome was due to stress in manufacturing. The tweeter sounded fine at modest levels but distortion increased rapidly with power giving the top end zing. The bass driver had a mid bass boost that lead to the integration issues with the mid range dome.

Put into context, this was a pretty good speaker for its day, but flawed in a number of areas. Generally speaking it had too much 'character' to be a good hi-fi allrounder and lacked the bandwidth, power and dynamic capabilities to cope in the studio.

The tests I refer to were done by JBL for whom I worked at the time, and EMI at Hayes in Middlesex, with whom we were looking at new monitors (4343, 4350) for (among other places) Abbey Road. They were looking for an alternative to the compact (relatively) 4310 that they had been using but did not much like. They thought a better crossover would help the NS1000 but decided against them overall, as they were unlikely to be robust enough for their requirements.

 

[dim_span]

I thought the whole point of Beryllium is to surpass any other material pushing the break-up mode higher up in frequency.

Interesting read: THE WHOLE TRUTH ABOUT BERYLLIUM DIAPHRAGMS (pdf)

NS1000M with a smiley face EQ? *scratch_one-s_head* IME they were painfully flat, lacking in sub bass for such a large speaker. Not really the fun west coast sound of JBLs.

Beryllium is a difficult material to work with and (we thought) the breakup in the big dome was due to stress in manufacturing. The tweeter sounded fine at modest levels but distortion increased rapidly with power giving the top end zing. The bass driver had a mid bass boost that lead to the integration issues with the mid range dome.

Put into context, this was a pretty good speaker for its day, but flawed in a number of areas. Generally speaking it had too much 'character' to be a good hi-fi allrounder and lacked the bandwidth, power and dynamic capabilities to cope in the studio.

The tests I refer to were done by JBL for whom I worked at the time, and EMI at Hayes in Middlesex, with whom we were looking at new monitors (4343, 4350) for (among other places) Abbey Road. They were looking for an alternative to the compact (relatively) 4310 that they had been using but did not much like. They thought a better crossover would help the NS1000 but decided against them overall, as they were unlikely to be robust enough for their requirements.

maybe you were looking at the wrong yamaha? .... the NS-1000M are large heavy speakers (and not bookshelf) .... they weigh 39Kg each and they were very very expensive

these are what is/was used by most recording studios in the world (still to this day) : Yamaha NS10:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep08/articles/yamahans10.htm

 

[Vladimir]

The NS1000M is a large bookshelf speaker, aka monkey coffins. They do get harsh and zingy when played loud, but I thought that was due to age of the pair I listened to (crossovers still in factory condition).

 

[dim_span]

The NS1000M is a large bookshelf speaker, aka monkey coffins. They do get harsh and zingy when played loud, but I thought that was due to age of the pair I listened to (crossovers still in factory condition).

like I said .... they need to be partnered correctly .... what amp was coupled? ....

same as my B&W DM2 .... connect a 35 watt amp and they sound bad .... but connect a 250 watt amp and they sing (no sub needed ... you can 'feel' the bass from 2 sides of the room) .... and the neighbour's neighbour's from across the street phone the police when you crank them up

 

[dim_span]

I thought the whole point of Beryllium is to surpass any other material pushing the break-up mode higher up in frequency.

Interesting read: THE WHOLE TRUTH ABOUT BERYLLIUM DIAPHRAGMS (pdf)

NS1000M with a smiley face EQ? *scratch_one-s_head* IME they were painfully flat, lacking in sub bass for such a large speaker. Not really the fun west coast sound of JBLs.

Beryllium is a difficult material to work with and (we thought) the breakup in the big dome was due to stress in manufacturing. The tweeter sounded fine at modest levels but distortion increased rapidly with power giving the top end zing. The bass driver had a mid bass boost that lead to the integration issues with the mid range dome.

Put into context, this was a pretty good speaker for its day, but flawed in a number of areas. Generally speaking it had too much 'character' to be a good hi-fi allrounder and lacked the bandwidth, power and dynamic capabilities to cope in the studio.

The tests I refer to were done by JBL for whom I worked at the time, and EMI at Hayes in Middlesex, with whom we were looking at new monitors (4343, 4350) for (among other places) Abbey Road. They were looking for an alternative to the compact (relatively) 4310 that they had been using but did not much like. They thought a better crossover would help the NS1000 but decided against them overall, as they were unlikely to be robust enough for their requirements.

and funnily enough .... to this day, Abbey road studios still use the Yamaha NS-10M speakers ....

http://www.abbeyroad.com/Service/12/Equipment-Technical

http://www.inner-magazines.com/news/602/72/Natural-Sound-The-Yamaha-NS-10M-1977-2002-Near-Field-Studio-Monitor/

 

[davedotco]

There is absolutely no similarities between the NS1000M and the NS10, save that they were both made by Yamaha.

The NS1000M was a genuine attempt to make a state of the art loudspeaker using innovative technology at a reasonably affordable price. It was a good attempt for it's time but was neither refined enough for hi-fi use, nor potent enough for the studio. It's cult status is derived from it's innovative metal domes but mainly from it's fantastic looks. Built today it would be pretty expensive and not remotely competitive.

The NS10M on the other hand was a 'grotbox', not an insult but a speaker designed to mimic cheap home audio whilst standing up to studio levels. By a happy coincidence, mixes using these speakers translated well to all kinds of cheap home setups so the 'if it sounds goog on NS10s, it'll sound good on anything' mantra was born.

In reality the breakup of the bass cone produced it's famous mid forward balance and it's cheap metal dome tweeter needed taming by covering it with several layers of toilet tissue, to be listenable.

 

[Vladimir]

like I said .... they need to be partnered correctly .... what amp was coupled? ....

Harman Kardon HK6900.

 

[Neman]

So I went and bought a pair of used, but perfect condition AVI ADM 9RS (scanspeak version) on the AVI forum for a few £ more than a Rega Brio-r. Before you all send me to the wolves, let me say this. I bought these with a healthy level of scepticism (I've read the threads on here). But these are fantastic. I was looking for a system that could convince me the band was in the room and I've found it. Does it beat a top of the range passive system? I don't know, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper, and I suspect would give it a good shot. And to all those who warn against not being able to upgrade dacs/interconnects/speaker cables etc....I'd rather spend it on a holiday. A huge thanks to WHF forum - I found exactly what I was after, which was the purpose of my first post.

 

[steve_1979]

Great news! I'm glad you're happy with them.

Are you getting an AVI subwoofer to go with them? You could probably get a second hand one and still be within your £1250 budget.

 

[robinb]

dim_span

Could you tell me who the Yamaha CR-2020 specialist in the UK is please?

I have one that needs a service!

regards

Robin