Woolly Bass, any advice a great help!

[Anonymous]

[quote user="ifitsoundsgoodlistentoit"][quote user="Ashley James"]Amplifiers need over 100 wpc at least to avoid clipping on the transients in music. If they clip at low frequencies, they feed momentary bursts of DC into the speakers and exaggerate the bass. This is the most common cause of booming although it can easily be measured. You can read more on the Wikipedia.
[/quote]

hi ashley, this statement seems very odd to me. surely an amplifier clipping would be solely dependant upon the load the speaker is placing upon it. ie. a loudspeaker with a high impedance and high senesitivity (say 95db+) would easily be driven with less than 100W and also avoid clipping.
i can tell you now that my A400 (50WPC) easily drives my 96db loudspeakers and produces incredibly deep and tight bass without any clipping and at any volumes. in fact, in my current room i am not able to turn the volume past 9 o'clock without it being too loud.[/quote]

Without measuring everything I wouldn't like to guess but 96dB/W/M doesn't sound right to me because you wouldn't have much bass even from a huge loudspeaker if it were that high and there are no tweeters that sensitive unless yours is a Compression Driver.

We did the DEM at Heathrow with B&W 803's and they needed at least 300 watt peaks with a sensitivity of around 90dB. They were 4 Ohms too. Most people's speakers are 87-89 dB/W/M

 

[Anonymous]

im sorry but how can a speakers sensitivity impact upon the amount of bass it can reproduce? just for the record my speakers impedance is 8 Ohms and they are standmounts (albeit very large standmounts) if that makes any difference.
i have to say that you seemed to have missed the point i was making in my post. You stated, quite categorically, that all amps need to produce 100+WPC to avoid clipping. however, i have an amp (and have had many amps in the past) that has an output of less than 100WPC an i have never had a problem with boomy bass or clipping. why is this? what about valve amps with their typically (and relatively) very small output...? considering that there is a high number of amps on the market with sub 100WPC outputs why is it that a corresponding number of people dont seem to be having a problem with this clipping...
i can understand that you want to promote your audio products and products of a similar ilk. however, i dont think you should be so keen in dismissing "old-fashioned" hi-fi seperates in favour of your own products. if you like your products, great (they certainly have been reveiwed favourably - i am quite taken with the AVM9's), but remember they may not be to everyones liking...

 

[Anonymous]

The amount of Bass a drive unit can produce is dictated by its diameter and it's sensitivity. As an Example I'll quote an old Studio Monitor which has a 15" bass driver and a sensitivity of 99dB/W/M. Believe it or not, its Bass extension is almost identical to a modern 6.5" Two way system with an 87-89 dB/W/M sensitivity. If the sensitivity is reduced to 90dB/W/M the same speaker will give 9dB more Bass.

I quote 100 Watts as a rough guide, more helps. More powerful Amps sound clearer and better controlled rather than louder. Low powered amplifiers don't sound as good and can damage drive units if not used carefully. It used to be argued that Valves sounded nicer if they were overdriven, but that's no longer the case IMO.

I'm not dismissing "old fashioned separates" I'm merely stating that they are falling from favour for practical reasons; They occupy too much space, aren't cost effective and cannot sound as good because they aren't as good an engineering solution.

What we make and sell has nothing to do with these facts which are easily proved. I am merely stating FACTS that need understanding and thinking about when you're selecting your next purchase.
I do hope this is clear.
Ashley

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="ifitsoundsgoodlistentoit"]im sorry but how can a speakers sensitivity impact upon the amount of bass it can reproduce? [/quote]

Many small speakers that produce a reasonable amount of bass are relatively insensitive.

My layman's reasoning is that the tweeter is easier to drive therefore you have to lower the overall volume of the speaker for the bass to sound loud relative to the speaker. I haven't worded that very well and I'm sure others like that AVI manufacturer - clever chap - can explain better.

An example of small and bassy but insensitive speakers are my Dynaudio Contour 1.1

Darren

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your replys so far Ashley. Do you think that other Hi-Fi manufacturers are therefore 'barking' up the wrong tree by continuing to R+D 'old fashioned seperates' since you believe they are not sonically the best solution?

It's interesting to hear what your opinions are on hi-fi being not very practical as this is hugely subjective. Rather than seeing them as unsightly and inconvenient I find seperates can be very much part of a stylish contemporary home. In fact i don't particularly like having to switch on a computer, and click away to access my music although its great being able to do so if you wished. As far as them not being sonically the best solution I 'd have to hear your computer based solution to be convinced although i know there are plenty of believers. For the time being i'm in the seperates camp....

 

[Anonymous]

The Industry has been contracting since the early eighties and it'll go on contracting for many years to come because of yours and many others affection for separates. However the points I've made are in reference to present day customers preferences or simply un-contestable scientific fact. We're at the cutting edge so it all seems terribly cumbersome and wrong to us and Apple, although hi fi enthusiasts haven't necessarily realised yet, are taking home Media by storm.

The big leveller is the noughts and ones you get from a digital source because they are all the same. It's the DACs that dictate sound quality and User Interface that dictates your choice of front end.

It's hard to explain how much better a compute is to use if your only experience is with Windows, but I use an Apple TV for my front end, it comes on instantly and I select whatever I want to listen to or watch from the TV screen or I stream to it from iTunes in my Laptop if I'm using a computer as I am now. By comparison with a separates system I have in the other room it's far faster and more convenient to use and the graphics are superb. Don't forget that I'm watching TV programs via Apple TV to avoid adverts, I'm viewing concerts and other clips of interest via Youtube, I'm watching Movies, I'm sampling new and different music via iTunes shop (the largest music retailer in the world), I'm playing my music and I may be viewing my photos or someone elses via Dot Mac, Flikr or whatever ever and all for £200. And because I'm using the digital output to a high quality DAC, the sound is as good as the best hi fi. Why would I want to go back?

I'm quoting my own experience but you must remember that it was our customers who encouraged me to try all this.

Ash

 

[Anonymous]

really? you know what the best hi-fi sounds like? please do tell us...
and if all digital sources are the same then why do you tell us there is such a big difference between apple and windows - its just software at the end of the day....
also with regards to your comments regarding the DAC dictating the sound - i am highly spetical! i mean, you are saying that ANY transport feeding into the same DAC will always produce the same results? :-/

 

[gpi]

ifitsounds... why are you antagonistic towards someone/everyone who has different views and opinions to your own? Ashley has simply stated how he sees the future and how he personally has embraced it. The future of hi-fi is computer hard disc/server/wireless-based whether you like it or not and I am becoming increasingly drawn towards it. Technology moves on at quite an alarming rate and if it didn't we'd all still be driving steam-driven vehicles.

Personally I welcome posters like Ashley, i.e. an authoritative voice from a major hi-fi manufacturer, taking the time to give his advice. It doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree with his points of view, does it? All you do with your constant challenges is discourage Ashley from posting again.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="gpi"]
Personally I welcome posters like Ashley, i.e. an authoritative voice from a major hi-fi manufacturer, taking the time to give his advice. It doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree with his points of view, does it? All you do with your constant challenges is discourage Ashley from posting again.[/quote]

I second that. It's great to get some refreshing input from somebody that works in the industry...

 

[Anonymous]

I too welcome Ashley's presence on the forum as it provides us with an opportunity to have a constructive debate with him regarding his views. I would hope he doesn't take any challenges personally, he does after all have some pretty strong views regarding his competitors and the direction we as consumers should be taking. As we are a free thinking society we should be able to view our thoughts without curtailing them to pander to some authority. His views are an just an opinion (albieit well informed) and his assumptions about what we want as consumers being scientifically indisputable are IMHO nonsense!!! His fondness for Apple is one thing but to rubbish Microsoft and Windows is ludicrous and pretentious in the extreme. He not only criticises Windows but has criticised other Hi-FI brands in an 'infamous' article which has been a subject of a recent posting on this forum. It's admirable if he is championing the consumer but i find it difficult in this day and age not to smell a whiff of opportunism here namely to piggy back on the success of Apple/itunes to his own companys benefit. I could be wrong but there's nothing wrong with a smidgeon of sceptism is there? ;-)

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="JamesOK"]
[quote user="peteAllen"]Try the spikes onto marble chopping boards (e.g. Argos or Tesco, only £10 each) and then halved squash balls underneath the marble, this made a big improvement to my floorstanders. If it doesn't work, at least you have some pastry rolling boards, or can use them as platform supports for your cd player etc.
You could also experiment with cables that have tight bass - cheapest i can think of is bottom of the range Nordost.[/quote]

Well Pete, went out this morning and spent 28 quid on some granite chopping boards and some squash balls! Very pleased to say its made much bigger difference than I expected. Tightened everything up nicely. So cheers for the suggestion.
[/quote]
Very glad to help. It seemed like this was mainly a problem with your speakers integrating with your room, since you mentioned that the trouble began after you moved. The spikes / marble / rubber squash ball probably help decouple your speakers from the acoustics of the floor.

A while ago i read an article somewhere on the web by someone who tried out all kinds of variations with wood & marble plinths etc, i will try to dig that up...

 

[Anonymous]

This is a quite interesting article (if you like this kind of thing, that is!) about

Spikes and Cones

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="JAXON5"]his assumptions about what we want as consumers being scientifically indisputable are IMHO nonsense!!! [/quote]

Sorry, misread. He did not say the above.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="gpi"]Very interesting post Ashley. Does the same apply to very sensitive speakers that seem to be driven okay with lower powered SS amps? What are your views on valve amps in particular, which get nowhere near 100 wpc?

I have my speakers about 12 inches from the rear wall, slightly toed in and the left one is about 18 inches from the side wall. The right one sits between my rack and a large cabinet in the corner which stores my LPs and the speakers fire down the length of the room. I am never sure where to place the right speaker because of the tall rack in the corner. Sometimes I will pull the speakers further out but it's not always practical.[/quote]

While I don't really have an opinion on valve amplifiers. I can tell you that a valve does not clip int he same way as a transistor when overdriven. Rather than being linear then just not producing any more voltage beyond a certain point, valves instead become exponentially non-linear when driven out of their linear region (gah, that sounds so obvious, non linear when not linear lol)

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="ifitsoundsgoodlistentoit"][quote user="Ashley James"]Amplifiers need over 100 wpc at least to avoid clipping on the transients in music. If they clip at low frequencies, they feed momentary bursts of DC into the speakers and exaggerate the bass. This is the most common cause of booming although it can easily be measured. You can read more on the Wikipedia.
[/quote]

hi ashley, this statement seems very odd to me. surely an amplifier clipping would be solely dependant upon the load the speaker is placing upon it. ie. a loudspeaker with a high impedance and high senesitivity (say 95db+) would easily be driven with less than 100W and also avoid clipping.
i can tell you now that my A400 (50WPC) easily drives my 96db loudspeakers and produces incredibly deep and tight bass without any clipping and at any volumes. in fact, in my current room i am not able to turn the volume past 9 o'clock without it being too loud.[/quote]

Put a square wave through your hifi and look at the output on an oscilliscope

In a square wave, the amplifier must swing from -28v to +28V, this is impossible. Even if you are swinging from -1v to +1v, doing it instantaneously is impossible. But the more power your amplifier has, the quicker it will do it.

Amplifiers will try their hardest to do it also giving out all the power they can for that tiny slice of time that requires it. This can cause clipping, but perhaps not in the conventional 'obvious' sense of turning you amp up way too high. Ok I am talking about a square wave here, but music has plenty of room for moments of extremely high slew rate

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="ifitsoundsgoodlistentoit"]im sorry but how can a speakers sensitivity impact upon the amount of bass it can reproduce? just for the record my speakers impedance is 8 Ohms and they are standmounts (albeit very large standmounts) if that makes any difference.
i have to say that you seemed to have missed the point i was making in my post. You stated, quite categorically, that all amps need to produce 100+WPC to avoid clipping. however, i have an amp (and have had many amps in the past) that has an output of less than 100WPC an i have never had a problem with boomy bass or clipping. why is this? what about valve amps with their typically (and relatively) very small output...? considering that there is a high number of amps on the market with sub 100WPC outputs why is it that a corresponding number of people dont seem to be having a problem with this clipping...
i can understand that you want to promote your audio products and products of a similar ilk. however, i dont think you should be so keen in dismissing "old-fashioned" hi-fi seperates in favour of your own products. if you like your products, great (they certainly have been reveiwed favourably - i am quite taken with the AVM9's), but remember they may not be to everyones liking...[/quote]

To get good bass with deep extension you need to have a large cabinet. The wavelength of audio at 5Khz (about where most tweeters kick in) is about 6.8 cm. A chunk of air 6.8cm long will resonate at that frequency (and higher harmonics). You have to build your box with this fact in mind. Now for bass. At 35Hz your wavelength has increased to 9.7 Meters. Build a box around that! People keep making speaker cabinets smaller and smaller though. The only way to can get your bass response back when you do this is to reduce the sensetivity of the speaker. Basically you make everything else quieter to make the bass sound louder.

 

[Anonymous]

Ashley!

I had a butchers on your site, While I am not in the market for speakers right now, those ADM9's look pretty nifty. USB port which you can play and record a digital bitstream. Now wouldn't you just love an ipod that had a digital out via USB function! (do they?)

one thing that puzzles me though fromt he design perspective, because these are obviously no nonsense speakers, is your choice of driver unit. I am not a fan of paper cones myself, I don't think they are rigid enough. The speakers I own (monitor audio) use what they CCAM RST technology, which is basically a ceramic coated magnesium aluminium alloy. The theory being (the white paper I got from MA was really quite interesting) that the cones can and will physically change shape as they are driven because the material (often paper) is flexible. It's dimpled so that should it also eventually distort in shape, it does so in a predictable fashion.

So I was wondering why the paper cones?

 

[Anonymous]

The best selling version of the ADM9's has a 24/96 Optical Digital input and one analogue. We'd assumed that most people would have Windows Computers with only USB digital outs, but that has not turned out to be the case. Most have Apple Computers or use Sonos, PS3, AppleTV, Noxon 2 or Squeezebox. Apple is making massive inroads into homes for Media because it's so much easier to use than separates or Windows. As one customer told us, his eighty two year old Granny was up and running in ten minutes!

We can't understand why anyone would want to dock an iPod when using the Computer that loaded it gives you a much better user interface. Most of our customers just get a Macbook or 24" iMac if they want it to double up as a TV.

The important thing about loudspeaker diaphragms is not what they are made of but how they perform. We prefer paper because in this instance we needed a very broad bandwidth (up to nearly 10 kHz) in order to ensure a phase perfect electronic crossover at 3.4 kHz. This particular drive unit was designed by the ex chief engineer of Scanspeak for the company that supplies Bentley Motors and is as good as we've seen. Doing it this way we've virtually removed the sound of the crossover, which is the most unpleasant distortion in passive loudspeakers. These are cutting edge.

Ashley

 

[JamesOK]

[quote user="ifitsoundsgoodlistentoit"][quote user="JamesOK"]
[quote user="peteAllen"]Try the spikes onto marble chopping boards (e.g. Argos or Tesco, only £10 each) and then halved squash balls underneath the marble, this made a big improvement to my floorstanders. If it doesn't work, at least you have some pastry rolling boards, or can use them as platform supports for your cd player etc.
You could also experiment with cables that have tight bass - cheapest i can think of is bottom of the range Nordost.[/quote]

Well Pete, went out this morning and spent 28 quid on some granite chopping boards and some squash balls! Very pleased to say its made much bigger difference than I expected. Tightened everything up nicely. So cheers for the suggestion.

[/quote]

James glad to hear you have had some success. sorry for getting the thread slightly off-topic. Did you also try different positioning of the speakers?
also if you have any squash balls spare you could try putting four halves under each speaker instead of using the spikes - i have used a similar techique with my standmounts to great effect - really focused the bass and improved imaging.[/quote]

hello, Ive tried positioning the speakers about as far away from the back and side walls as I can. As a certain shop says "Every little helps" I think. Unfortunately I am limited as to how much I can move them due to dimensions of the room, and also the fact that if I move them too far forwards they will get hit by a door every time I open it! Ive got a couple of squash balls left, not enough to try both speakers out. My only reservation with trying this is that I have introduced a certain amount of unsteadyness to them already having put them on the boards with squash balls underneath. i wonder if adding more may make them too unstable. Especially considering I have a rather heavy handed cleaner too (she is instructed not to touch my stereo but I would be concerned about her connecting the hoover with my B&Ws!!!).

On a seperate note I think i am about due for some new speaker cable. I wonder if this will help my cause further.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="gpi"]ifitsounds... why are you antagonistic towards someone/everyone who has different views and opinions to your own? Ashley has simply stated how he sees the future and how he personally has embraced it. The future of hi-fi is computer hard disc/server/wireless-based whether you like it or not and I am becoming increasingly drawn towards it. Technology moves on at quite an alarming rate and if it didn't we'd all still be driving steam-driven vehicles.

Personally I welcome posters like Ashley, i.e. an authoritative voice from a major hi-fi manufacturer, taking the time to give his advice. It doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree with his points of view, does it? All you do with your constant challenges is discourage Ashley from posting again.[/quote]

GPI - i am not antagonistic towards everyone if they have views differing to my own. however, i am rather suspicious of people who make such bold statements about hifi whilst promoting their own products...

yes its great to have someone who has so much knowledge of a certain upcoming area in hifi on this forum. however, you must forgive me if i remain sceptical about what he is saying especially when it contradicts everything i have ever read and/or experienced.
take what he said about amps clipping for example. i replied that my 50w A400 amp does not clip - i also have a Pioneer A757 Reference Series amp that puts out 150W into four ohms. i have used both amps to run the same speakers and cannot detect any change in bass response. so i am asking why is this?
i am sorry to those that find my posts antagonistic... however, if someobody proclaims that 4+4 = 9 when all my life i have been told told it actually = 8 then of course i am going to challenge what they say.... i seem to remember it wasnt that long ago i was accused needing to be more cynical and believing everything i read/heard...

as for computer or hdd based audio being the way forward for hi-fi... well we will see. it seems that 27 years ago the same was said about cd heralding the death of vinyl and yet...

personally the conveneince of pc based audio is appealing yet i like my cd collection as a tactile thing and wouldnt want to replace it... i am also yet to be convinced of the sound quality hdd based audio is capable of...

peace

 

[gpi]

[quote user="Ashley James"]The best selling version of the ADM9's has a 24/96 Optical Digital input and one analogue. We'd assumed that most people would have Windows Computers with only USB digital outs, but that has not turned out to be the case. Most have Apple Computers or use Sonos, PS3, AppleTV, Noxon 2 or Squeezebox. Apple is making massive inroads into homes for Media because it's so much easier to use than separates or Windows. As one customer told us, his eighty two year old Granny was up and running in ten minutes!

We can't understand why anyone would want to dock an iPod when using the Computer that loaded it gives you a much better user interface. Most of our customers just get a Macbook or 24" iMac if they want it to double up as a TV.

The important thing about loudspeaker diaphragms is not what they are made of but how they perform. We prefer paper because in this instance we needed a very broad bandwidth (up to nearly 10 kHz) in order to ensure a phase perfect electronic crossover at 3.4 kHz. This particular drive unit was designed by the ex chief engineer of Scanspeak for the company that supplies Bentley Motors and is as good as we've seen. Doing it this way we've virtually removed the sound of the crossover, which is the most unpleasant distortion in passive loudspeakers. These are cutting edge.

Ashley[/quote]

Ashley, I have an older iMac like this pic, so how would I output to a DAC or amplifier/active speakers? The iMac has two USB sockets (USB1 I think), One Ethernet, one modem, two Firewire and only one jack-style socket for audio out, which I use to connect my small Yamaha active speakers.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Mr_Poletski"]
To get good bass with deep extension you need to have a large cabinet. The wavelength of audio at 5Khz (about where most tweeters kick in) is about 6.8 cm. A chunk of air 6.8cm long will resonate at that frequency (and higher harmonics). You have to build your box with this fact in mind. Now for bass. At 35Hz your wavelength has increased to 9.7 Meters. Build a box around that!
People keep making speaker cabinets smaller and smaller though. The only way to can get your bass response back when you do this is to reduce the sensetivity of the speaker. Basically you make everything else quieter to make the bass sound louder.[/quote]

Mr P, thanks for that - even if i am too thick too understand a lot of it. You clearly know your stuff but how does what you say translate into laymans terms... or how will it effect the sound most importantly. Because, at the end of the day, if we are talking about something that nobody can hear and you need specialist equipment to measure then why are we worrying?
also, i understand (i think) what you are saying about reproducing bass frequencies however, why do headphone manufacturers say their headphones are capable of reproducing frequencies as low as 8Hz...? im confused.com

 

[JoelSim]

[quote user="thelegendarymonch"]
The room plays a major part but to be honest Arcam gear is soft sounding and the B&Ws are a boring "hifi" sounding speaker i.e clarity/speed takes a back seat to producing "a big sound". With your current situation you need to 'tune' less vibration into the room (heavy metal spiked stands do NOT stop vibration travelling, they merely tune it to a more specific frequency which will overdrive the room). In my setup I purchased Quadraspire QX speaker stands beneath my speakers (lightweight acrylic stands) and placed them on to two marble blocks (for stability). I expect a lot of abse from others in response to this (from supposed experts who just read this 'specalist' magazine.
[/quote]

I have to say I'm not a B&W fan but if there's one thing they are among the best at it is tight bass. Arcam isn't soft either, it gets criticised on this forum for being too neutral. I have Arcam A85/P85 and have it biamped through two sets of decent speakers - Dali Ikon 6 and ProAc Tablette Reference 8 Signatures and the bass is wooly on neither

 

[Anonymous]

If your computer doesn't have an optical digital output, you'd buy the USB version of ADM9s.

Ash

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="JamesOK"] My only reservation with trying this is that I have introduced a certain amount of unsteadyness to them already having put them on the boards with squash balls underneath. i wonder if adding more may make them too unstable. Especially considering I have a rather heavy handed cleaner too (she is instructed not to touch my stereo but I would be concerned about her connecting the hoover with my B&Ws!!!).[/quote]
I have 4 halves under each speaker, this is stable if they're all level, plus the more there are the harder it is for them to be dragged at all.

If you're concerned about the spikes slipping on the marble, look at these tasty spike shoes...
http://cart.audioserenity.co.uk/index.php?p=catalog&parent=2&pg=1

"The metal spike shoes will provide secure location and the required level of isolation to fully enhance your setup. They ensure only point contact is made between it and the spike itself to ensure minimal loss of sound energy. In addition, each AudioSerenity spike shoe incorporates a highly resilient rubber pad at its base to provide further isolation and ultimate protection against your specific floor type. The spike shoes can be safely used on any flat flooring types such as marble, hard or laminate wood flooring and ceramic tiles."