Woolly Bass, any advice a great help!

[JamesOK]

Hello all,

Been having some trouble with my setup and thought this would be a good place to seek advice. The problem is that Ive not long ago moved house, my setup is now in an upstairs room and the bass on my speakers is becoming a little bit woolly to say the least!

The details are: Arcam A85/P85 bi wired to B&W DM603 S3 using CableTalk 5.1 cable. They sit in a room approx 400mm from the rear wall, and 300mm from side walls. I have plugged the bass port with the sponges, but this hasnt made much difference. Could the problem be that I am upstairs? Previously my stereo has always been on a concrete floor and I havent had this problem.

Does anyone have a similar problem, or any suggestions on how to sort it out? The speakers have their spikes in place, so i thought it wouldnt be vibration through the floor - but this is the only explanation I can think of.

Any advice greatfully received.

Thanks

James.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi there, yes, the room is the problem, to be more specific the floor is your main problem by the sound of things. Personally I would give the big B&W some more space from the rear wall and side walls as they are interfering with the sound. Then I would decouple the speakers of the floor, I guess the floor is vibrating causing those B&W to boom, it should hopefully be simple to fix.

 

[JamesOK]

[quote user="silly"]Hi there, yes, the room is the problem, to be more specific the floor is your main problem by the sound of things. Personally I would give the big B&W some more space from the rear wall and side walls as they are interfering with the sound. Then I would decouple the speakers of the floor, I guess the floor is vibrating causing those B&W to boom, it should hopefully be simple to fix.[/quote]

Thanks for your reply Silly. So what methods can I use to do this? Are we talking putting something inbetween the spikes and the floor, something heavy like a slab or something?

 

[Anonymous]

I suffer the same problem in my bedroom - the main problem is that the floorboards underneath the carpet are soft and downstairs it is concrete underneath carpet which is much better.

 

[JamesOK]

Yep I think thats the problem. Been advised on another forum that taking the spikes out may actually improve the situation, I'll give this a go and let you know how i get on.

 

[Anonymous]

Try the spikes onto marble chopping boards (e.g. Argos or Tesco, only £10 each) and then halved squash balls underneath the marble, this made a big improvement to my floorstanders. If it doesn't work, at least you have some pastry rolling boards, or can use them as platform supports for your cd player etc.
You could also experiment with cables that have tight bass - cheapest i can think of is bottom of the range Nordost.

 

[gpi]

I thought you only got woolly bass from a certain Salisbury brand

 

[JamesOK]

Thanks for the suggestion. I am going to do some experimentation tomorrow and see how I get on.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="gpi"]I thought you only got woolly bass from a certain Salisbury brand

[/quote]Not in my experience. but then its only been a month or two.

 

[gpi]

[quote user="fast eddie"][quote user="gpi"]I thought you only got woolly bass from a certain Salisbury brand

[/quote]Not in my experience. but then its only been a month or two.

[/quote]

Is it the best you've had baa none?

 

[Anonymous]

The room plays a major part but to be honest Arcam gear is soft sounding and the B&Ws are a boring "hifi" sounding speaker i.e clarity/speed takes a back seat to producing "a big sound". With your current situation you need to 'tune' less vibration into the room (heavy metal spiked stands do NOT stop vibration travelling, they merely tune it to a more specific frequency which will overdrive the room). In my setup I purchased Quadraspire QX speaker stands beneath my speakers (lightweight acrylic stands) and placed them on to two marble blocks (for stability). I expect a lot of abse from others in response to this (from supposed experts who just read this 'specalist' magazine.

 

[Anonymous]

wow, 2 posts in and you are already trolling- good start! maybe you would prevent some abuse if you used "IMHO" when making gross generalisations about entire Brand names!
Or you could qualify your statement by detailing your (obviously) vast experience with said brand names...
Also, you might want to avoid making (insinuated) insults about the magazine associated with the forum on which you are posting...

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="ifitsoundsgoodlistentoit"]wow, 2 posts in and you are already trolling- good start! maybe you would prevent some abuse if you used "IMHO" when making gross generalisations about entire Brand names!
Or you could qualify your statement by detailing your (obviously) vast experience with said brand names...
Also, you might want to avoid making (insinuated) insults about the magazine associated with the forum on which you are posting...[/quote]

Totally agree..............

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="thelegendarymonch"]
The room plays a major part but to be honest Arcam gear is soft sounding and the B&Ws are a boring "hifi" sounding speaker i.e clarity/speed takes a back seat to producing "a big sound". With your current situation you need to 'tune' less vibration into the room (heavy metal spiked stands do NOT stop vibration travelling, they merely tune it to a more specific frequency which will overdrive the room). In my setup I purchased Quadraspire QX speaker stands beneath my speakers (lightweight acrylic stands) and placed them on to two marble blocks (for stability). I expect a lot of abse from others in response to this (from supposed experts who just read this 'specalist' magazine.
[/quote]

And what speakers and ancillary equipment do you have?

 

[drummerman]

Whilst I agree that there was some provocation in the last phrase what are you exactly ifitsoundsgoodlistentoit? I've repeatedly noticed you like yourself as moderator! Why dont you leave that job to the people appointed and challenge a posting without telling folks what to do. I have to say your postings bore me to death sometimes mate.

 

[JamesOK]

Blimey, how to make friends and influence people eh? Surely buying a stereo is about going to a dealer with some of your favourite music and trying kit out until you find something you like rather than labelling whole brands as "soft sounding" and "boring"?

And all I wanted was some advice on a problem...

 

[JamesOK]

[quote user="peteAllen"]Try the spikes onto marble chopping boards (e.g. Argos or Tesco, only £10 each) and then halved squash balls underneath the marble, this made a big improvement to my floorstanders. If it doesn't work, at least you have some pastry rolling boards, or can use them as platform supports for your cd player etc.
You could also experiment with cables that have tight bass - cheapest i can think of is bottom of the range Nordost.[/quote]

Well Pete, went out this morning and spent 28 quid on some granite chopping boards and some squash balls! Very pleased to say its made much bigger difference than I expected. Tightened everything up nicely. So cheers for the suggestion.

 

[Anonymous]

Amplifiers need over 100 wpc at least to avoid clipping on the transients in music. If they clip at low frequencies, they feed momentary bursts of DC into the speakers and exaggerate the bass. This is the most common cause of booming although it can easily be measured. You can read more on the Wikipedia.

I don't know the power of your amplifier or the model of B&W but I can see that your speakers are too far into the corners.

It's important to understand that bass radiates through 360 degrees so when you place a speaker against a wall you restrict this to 180 and increase the amount you hear. In or near a corner the problem is twice as bad.

As a guide it's worth knowing that theoretically the best position for loudspeakers in a room is quarter of the length and quarter of the width firing across the shortest dimension. You may not be able to leave them there, but you can at least see if it moderates the bass end.

Rooms peak up the low frequency output of speakers, some more than others, so it's always important to pick a speaker that suits. However do remember that because of the peak power requirement of modern recordings, it's important to buy an amp with at least 100wpc unless you are prepared to accept a loss of clarity and a softening of the bass caused by clipping at anything other than very low volume levels.

About 13 years ago we demonstrated this at the Heathrow Penta Hi Fi Show with a special power measuring device that showed the continuous average input to the speakers, which amounted to a fraction of a Watt, the peaks that ran into hundreds and when the chosen Amp was clipping. I never saw it reported in a single magazine despite most of the reviewers of the time visiting us and being surprised but convinced.

Ashley

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="drummerman"]
Whilst I agree that there was some provocation in the last phrase what are you exactly ifitsoundsgoodlistentoit? I've repeatedly noticed you like yourself as moderator! Why dont you leave that job to the people appointed and challenge a posting without telling folks what to do. I have to say your postings bore me to death sometimes mate.
[/quote]

right, you dont like me, i get it. im not going to loose any sleep over either. Im not trying to be a mod - simply offering some advice to a newcomer who seems hell-bent on stirring up a hornets nest. other peole seem to agree so... your post also comes across as you trying to mod me so... in future i think we shall just have to agree to disagree

 

[Anonymous]

Hello Ashley. Do you intend to continue supporting your Hi-Fi seperates products wholeheartedly despite believing the future of audio lies with the computer?

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="JamesOK"]
[quote user="peteAllen"]Try the spikes onto marble chopping boards (e.g. Argos or Tesco, only £10 each) and then halved squash balls underneath the marble, this made a big improvement to my floorstanders. If it doesn't work, at least you have some pastry rolling boards, or can use them as platform supports for your cd player etc.
You could also experiment with cables that have tight bass - cheapest i can think of is bottom of the range Nordost.[/quote]

Well Pete, went out this morning and spent 28 quid on some granite chopping boards and some squash balls! Very pleased to say its made much bigger difference than I expected. Tightened everything up nicely. So cheers for the suggestion.
[/quote]

James glad to hear you have had some success. sorry for getting the thread slightly off-topic. Did you also try different positioning of the speakers?
also if you have any squash balls spare you could try putting four halves under each speaker instead of using the spikes - i have used a similar techique with my standmounts to great effect - really focused the bass and improved imaging.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="JAXON5"]Hello Ashley. Do you intend to continue supporting your Hi-Fi seperates products wholeheartedly despite believing the future of audio lies with the computer?[/quote]

The man has a right to promote his products...and rightly so, as deep down we all know that solid-state amplifiers DO need more than 100watts to produce music properly on normal sensitivity speakers. My Arcam A32 can't do that on 89db 6ohm speakers and it's 100watts!

 

[gpi]

Very interesting post Ashley. Does the same apply to very sensitive speakers that seem to be driven okay with lower powered SS amps? What are your views on valve amps in particular, which get nowhere near 100 wpc?

I have my speakers about 12 inches from the rear wall, slightly toed in and the left one is about 18 inches from the side wall. The right one sits between my rack and a large cabinet in the corner which stores my LPs and the speakers fire down the length of the room. I am never sure where to place the right speaker because of the tall rack in the corner. Sometimes I will pull the speakers further out but it's not always practical.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Ashley James"]Amplifiers need over 100 wpc at least to avoid clipping on the transients in music. If they clip at low frequencies, they feed momentary bursts of DC into the speakers and exaggerate the bass. This is the most common cause of booming although it can easily be measured. You can read more on the Wikipedia.
[/quote]

hi ashley, this statement seems very odd to me. surely an amplifier clipping would be solely dependant upon the load the speaker is placing upon it. ie. a loudspeaker with a high impedance and high senesitivity (say 95db+) would easily be driven with less than 100W and also avoid clipping.
i can tell you now that my A400 (50WPC) easily drives my 96db loudspeakers and produces incredibly deep and tight bass without any clipping and at any volumes. in fact, in my current room i am not able to turn the volume past 9 o'clock without it being too loud.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="JAXON5"]Hello Ashley. Do you intend to continue supporting your Hi-Fi seperates products wholeheartedly despite believing the future of audio lies with the computer?[/quote]

A truthful answer is that we'll design and manufacturer what the customers want and we'll do it with the passionate commitment to excellence that we've always had. Having said that, it's clear that the separates market is shrinking, people can see that getting rid of an old Tower PC, a pile if separates with a poor WAF and a CRT and replacing the lot with either an iMac or Flat screen TV with a Mini or a Laptop and something like our ADM9s is a far better solution. It saves money, anyone can use it and most of all, it saves lots of space and looks better. And it's technically a far better solution.

It's important to understand that separating every part of a hi fi system into a separate box is not a good engineering or sonic solution, it might have been thirty years ago, but now, it's a waste of the customer's money.

Ashley