Wiim Ultra connections - Internal or external DAC

[Jasonovich]

I'm lead to believe that the SMSL has a better clocking circuit than the Ultra.

Ok that makes sense, I guess it's worth experimenting and decide which you prefer.

 

[Al ears]

I'm lead to believe that the SMSL has a better clocking circuit than the Ultra.

So you take a digital signal from something that has a decent DAC, reclock it and then send it to another DAC?
That doesn't make financial sense.

 

[Juzzie Wuzzie]

That doesn't make financial sense.

 

[Jasonovich]

I think there is some merit to this, especially if you have a low end streamer but if you already have a decent setup, how much of a benefit would this bring?
Is it cost effective or like me, you like to tweak things to death! 🙂

I went over to Hoffman's forum, just picking up on other peoples comment.

Streaming: The quality (and implimentation) of your clock is important!

All- I rarely start a thread - i think this is my first. I'm mostly a lurker from time to time - an audiophool like the rest of us. This topic...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

 

[PieterG]

I believe using anything but USB out from the Ultra you'll be using it's clock which totally defeats adding to the something else into the chain with to SMSL as the whole purpose is to use it's clock instead.

More than happy to be corrected if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

Good point.

I figured all digital outs would be passthrough as long as the frequency and bit rate are supported for the selected output. If what you say is correct - and i have no reason to contradict you - then usb is preferred.

I think @TK421 confirmed that the SMSL only accepts usb input, so that problem is solved 🙃

 

[nopiano]

What no Lamb 🤣

Only if you fly from a Welsh airport?! 😂

 

[Witterings]

Good point.

I figured all digital outs would be passthrough as long as the frequency and bit rate are supported for the selected output. If what you say is correct - and i have no reason to contradict you - then usb is preferred.

I think @TK421 confirmed that the SMSL only accepts usb input, so that problem is solved 🙃

I just went back and re-read your opening post, have you tried the Ultra with both RCA out using it's internal DAC vs Optical / Coax out into you amp to use it's DAC instead ..... I'd really give that a proper try to see which you prefer ...and more to the point if you hear any noticeable differences.

I think WiiM products are brilliant and didn't want to move away from them as they integrated so well with my setup and streaming provider ... I did however try a BlueSound Nano and just found in was better overall so reluctantly moved for my critical listening but still use WiiM's for all multiroom / non critical listening.

The differences between most of them though are pretty minimal and they're all brilliant, you need to decide what your ultimate goal is and how anal you are about minimal differences in sound.
'
My Mrs will happily listen to a crackly Bluetooth speaker and picks up on the "feel" and energy of the music ..... I do that as well but I also notice the difference in the warmth, depth, tone and even the ambience of where they're recorded of every note.

Take your time, don't rush, buy and try things where you have the option to return i.e. Amazon .... buy things 2nd hand to try and if you don't like you won't lose much money.

At the end of the day, only your personal trial and error will lead you to what you like best, it took me 2 years to reach my Mecca and I have no intention of changing anything apart from the most compatible streaming provider.

EDIT: And USB out into your Amp as I believe it accepts it????

 

[Witterings]

Only if you fly from a Welsh airport?! 😂

Took a client out for lunch today in London ... had Lamb Shank from Haz in St Pauls ...... nowhere near Wales and no intention of a flight 🤣

Have to add it was F.....g lovely 😀

 

[nopiano]

Took a client out for lunch today in London ... had Lamb Shank from Haz in St Pauls ...... nowhere near Wales and no intention of a flight 🤣

Have to add it was F.....g lovely 😀

It wasn’t Welsh lamb then? Lamb shank is a succulent dish though!

 

[Juzzie Wuzzie]

Took a client out for lunch today in London ... had Lamb Shank from Haz in St Pauls ...... nowhere near Wales and no intention of a flight 🤣

Have to add it was F.....g lovely 😀

And cheaper than going to Sweetings for the fish option ...

 

[PieterG]

@Witterings @TK421

I did a bit of research on jitter and clocking (because i like rabbit holes).
TLDR; the USB transport into a DAC is the cleanest.

• USB is asynchronous, allowing the DAC to request data when it needs it. The DAC is the master clock, close to the D/A conversion processors. Lowest risk of jitter.
• S/PDIF is synchronous, meaning the streamer "forces" data into the DAC and includes its own clock in the signal. The DAC must re-clock the incoming signal and essentially work harder to recover any jitter introduced.
  (Note: optical avoids electrical noise but has higher jitter risk than coaxial.)

The clock in a WiiM is considered quite good, but not high-end. Fortunately, modern DACs use various techniques (buffering, oversampling, PLL timing correction, ...) to re-clock and eliminate jitter before conversion to analog.

Now i want to play with my DAC inputs too, though my ears probably won't pick up the difference.

 

[Jasonovich]

@Witterings @TK421

I did a bit of research on jitter and clocking (because i like rabbit holes).
TLDR; the USB transport into a DAC is the cleanest.

• USB is asynchronous, allowing the DAC to request data when it needs it. The DAC is the master clock, close to the D/A conversion processors. Lowest risk of jitter.
• S/PDIF is synchronous, meaning the streamer "forces" data into the DAC and includes its own clock in the signal. The DAC must re-clock the incoming signal and essentially work harder to recover any jitter introduced.
  (Note: optical avoids electrical noise but has higher jitter risk than coaxial.)

The clock in a WiiM is considered quite good, but not high-end. Fortunately, modern DACs use various techniques (buffering, oversampling, PLL timing correction, ...) to re-clock and eliminate jitter before conversion to analog.

Now i want to play with my DAC inputs too, though my ears probably won't pick up the difference.

Good stuff, really helpful information.

Still waiting delivery for my Gustard headphone amp and SMSL CD player and I was weighing up the digital and analogue connectivity for those two devices.

I was undecided whether to change the WiiM Plus Pro coax connection to DAC from digital to analogue via the RCA, which I was hoping to re-route to Gustard H26 Headphone/Preamp and the SMSL PL150 CD player gets the coax going into the DAC.

I decided against it, I don't do any critical listening via the streaming media but I do with the CD. The Digital Transport has the DAC's USB slot as this gives me the highest possible DSD Res and sound quality.
I've decided to leave it as it is, the WiiM's streaming output stays on the coax to DAC and CD player gets the RCA output to Gustard.

This way, I get a more direct signal from my CD player to my headphones and speakers using this option. The Gustard accepts two balanced XLR inputs and one RCA input, one XLR output and one RCA output.
The Eversolo Z8 DAC will have a balance output to Gustard and the SMSL CD player the RCA input. Gustard balanced XLR output to the active speakers. Sorted!

 

[PieterG]

This way, I get a more direct signal from my CD player to my headphones and speakers using this option. The Gustard accepts two balanced XLR inputs and one RCA input, one XLR output and one RCA output.
The Eversolo Z8 DAC will have a balance output to Gustard and the SMSL CD player the RCA input. Gustard balanced XLR output to the active speakers. Sorted!

Are you saying CD analog RCA into the Eversolo and then balanced to the Gustard amp?

That obviously works, but if you have the optical input on your DAC (it seems unused from your description), wouldn't it be easier to send CD out digitally (optical) rather than converting to analog before sending it to the Eversolo? (Honest question - i overthink things all the time.)

That Z8 has impressive reviews, by the way

 

[Jasonovich]

Are you saying CD analog RCA into the Eversolo and then balanced to the Gustard amp?

That obviously works, but if you have the optical input on your DAC (it seems unused from your description), wouldn't it be easier to send CD out digitally (optical) rather than converting to analog before sending it to the Eversolo? (Honest question - i overthink things all the time.)

That Z8 has impressive reviews, by the way

Sorry for the confusion, what I meant, is using the Gustard RCA input for CD player and coax input on DAC for the Streaming 😊
The optical input connection is dedicated to my work laptop 😄 This interfaces with a toshlink to USB converter which allows me to use laptop with DAC.

Indeed Eversolo DAC is amazing. I was toying with the idea of upgrading to Denafrips or possibly Gustard R26 but hell no, the small benefit it will bring isn't worth the extra costs 😊

 

[Juzzie Wuzzie]

Not wishing to hi-jack this thread ... more a subtle lange change .... the Warmer R2R from FIIO ... thoughts @Jasonovich

 

[Jasonovich]

Not wishing to hi-jack this thread ... more a subtle lange change .... the Warmer R2R from FIIO ... thoughts @Jasonovich

I have R2R K11 setup in the dining room, you're right with the warm sound which I really like, not as resolving or transparent as the Eversolo Z8 but the FiiO is an amazing budget DAC and the best buck for <£130. The FiiO LPS PL50 power supply advances the sound quality further.

@RTHerringbone has big brother FiiO R2R K13 and he's totally impress with it.

 

[RTHerringbone]

I have R2R K11 setup in the dining room, you're right with the warm sound which I really like, not as resolving or transparent as the Eversolo Z8 but the FiiO is an amazing budget DAC and the best buck for <£130. The FiiO LPS PL50 power supply advances the sound quality further.

@RTHerringbone has big brother FiiO R2R K13 and he's totally impress with it.

I am, but have nothing to compare it to so can't comment on sound characteristics compared to a standard DAC / Amp.

But: it works well, it's got great build quality and is an almost exact footprint match to the WiiM Ultra, so creates a nice matching stack of stuff in my headphone setup. Downsides are the remote is a bit cheap and nasty feeling, and the way to do EQ is a bit cumbersome (have to physically USB into it from a computer).

 

[Juzzie Wuzzie]

Have I confused myself / others ... as I was refering to this:

FiiO’s Warmer R2R DAC houses the holy trinity of audiophile catnip | Darko.Audio

An R2R DAC circuit, tubes and a mechanical VU meters.

darko.audio

 

[Jasonovich]

Have I confused myself / others ... as I was refering to this:

FiiO’s Warmer R2R DAC houses the holy trinity of audiophile catnip | Darko.Audio

An R2R DAC circuit, tubes and a mechanical VU meters.

darko.audio

No worries, the tube DAC R2R, ah, yes the reviews are doing the rounds on YouTube.
The solid state R2R is tonally warm, the tube must be latte made from cream.
It's an interesting product , kudos to FiiO for not holding back.

You're going to need air space for this bad boy, great for winter, an extra fan for summer!
My personal choice would be stick to solid state R2R because you get the best of both worlds but if you're someone who likes the froth on his Guinness, you'll probably go for the tubes.

 

[Juzzie Wuzzie]

Whilst I think it is an attractive product, sticking it before a tube pre and power amp is probably not what it is intended for.

 

[Jasonovich]

Whilst I think it is an attractive product, sticking it before a tube pre and power amp is probably not what it is intended for.

Oh definitely, if you align these with tube pre and powered amps, I suspect the sound will be a little loose and possibly lacking in solidity.

If you're into vocals, acoustic music, jazz, folk.
I think they'll be magic with these R2R tube DACs.

Pop, synth, rock and other music with fast transients likely to be better suited to solid state.
That is why I have a tube head amp in my bedroom, Nora Jones voice has never been so lush.

 

[Pattern-chaser]

Morning all,

Got myself a Wiim Ultra over the weekend and am wondering about the DAC situation.
As I understand it, dependent on which output you use, it uses either the internal DAC or the external one/the one in the amp.
Is this correct and if so, which is best? The amp's DAC or the Wiim's DAC?

I've been thinking about a WiiM Ultra, as a player for my (large) *local* (stored on a USB HDD) music collection. I currently use a Chord Mojo2 DAC, connected via USB.

What I would like to know is if the WiiM can handle a music collection a little over 2 TBytes, and how the WiiM's DAC might compare with my Mojo? Can the WiiM's DAC really approach my Chord, or is that just too much to ask/hope for?

Any opinions gratefully accepted. TIA.

 

[Revolutions]

I've been thinking about a WiiM Ultra, as a player for my (large) *local* (stored on a USB HDD) music collection. I currently use a Chord Mojo2 DAC, connected via USB.

What I would like to know is if the WiiM can handle a music collection a little over 2 TBytes, and how the WiiM's DAC might compare with my Mojo? Can the WiiM's DAC really approach my Chord, or is that just too much to ask/hope for?

Any opinions gratefully accepted. TIA.

I would expect the Mojo 2 to sound a lot better. But as with all things like this, the best thing you can do is try both options yourself & choose the one you like best. Hifi is just a game of preferences, after all.

 

[Witterings]

I've been thinking about a WiiM Ultra, as a player for my (large) *local* (stored on a USB HDD) music collection. I currently use a Chord Mojo2 DAC, connected via USB.

What I would like to know is if the WiiM can handle a music collection a little over 2 TBytes, and how the WiiM's DAC might compare with my Mojo? Can the WiiM's DAC really approach my Chord, or is that just too much to ask/hope for?

Any opinions gratefully accepted. TIA.

I was a WiiM user and still am for all Multiroom situations.
I got an Ultra and a Bluesound Nano both on home trial to pair with my Qutest, overall I found the Nano had a warmer sound with greater detail, WiiM's just sound "thin" in comparison and the bass to low mids a bit "compressed". They both sounded better with USB out as opposed to Opt/Coax but the Nano just "edged it".

I think stepping back to using the WiiM's DAC as opposed to your Mojo you'd notice quite a difference as well.