Why is vinyl so much better than digital?

[Anonymous]

I'm finding myself siding with 'the record spot' here, as often I do.

The way I see it is that music doesn't magically finds its way onto vinyl or a CD. Someone has to take the source and master it for pressing. Now this may be done by a genius or a hack, regardless of format. It then need to be pressed / printed, again could be done lovingly or poorly. So there are often both good and bad versions on both formats. In some cases a particular CD will exhibit certain strengths over a particular vinyl version of the same album, but equally another vinyl pressing may exhibit strengths over the CD. Simply stating that as a format CDs are always better than vinyl or vice versa is closed mindedness in my opinion.

.and that's before you even get into the whole HiFi component, listening room characteristics issue.

You should love them both like a mother loves her kids - love them for what they are and the unique gifts they both have.

I still think vinyl will outlive CDs as format though.

 

[shooter]

the record spot:Gone are the days of warm and fuzzy on record. There are tons of cartridges out there that'll give you all the detail you want. The Audio Technica AT440MLa being such a beast, £125 and plugged onto a Rega P3 will sound more CD player than vinyl. I should know, I have one and it delivers detail in spades. I precisely wanted that as the "warm and fuzzies" is not what I want on listening.

Yep the warm and fuzzies are long gone!

My current and last turntable didn't sound that way and to be honest it was long long when it did, probably around the time i was listening to reel to reel so late 70's early 80's. My current turntable is so far removed from that the only analog sound comes from the pressing itself. I can put anything on from Phil Collins, Labi Siffre or Led Zeppelin and will hear differing analog sound, there are a number of factors including quality of recording and production but also the analog recording equipment comes into it and it differing in that respect. (That is the main reason i got shot of the Benz and stuck with the P75 because the Benz added its own warmth to the equation and i wanted the cleanest path possible, good or not and the P75 gives it.) So no analog fuzzies here just clean clear vinyl reproduction.

For the last hour or so i have listened to an album on both the CD and TT. The chosen album was The Doors LA woman, i have the digitally remastered CD and the 180g re-issuse of 2008.(i think?) The test was done playing the first half of the album first, 5 tracks up to LA Woman. This gave the CD player time to warm a little before playing the CD, then i played the remainder of the album. Also i took notes and there not the best you will read!

For the LP the, notes read.

Open sound and large sound stage.

Detailed notes.

Black background.

3 Dimensional.

Solid Bass.

Good treble extension.

Very nice mid and good vocals.

For the CD, notes read.

Enclosed smaller sound stage.

Blunt leading edges.

Less orchestral?

Less spacial.

Smaller sound with veil over.

Thats how it pretty much sounded so for me the LP won over quite easily.

Just a quick not on the system used, some of you know it but the costing of the CD player and the TT are similarly priced but if i added the cart, cables and phono stage the TT would cost around 20% more so to be fair it should be taken as a whole package similarly to the CD and cable. The TT should win and it did but did it sound 20% better?
I'd have to say yes and then some the switch from LP to CD was a hugh difference and putting in the CD put the shackles on the music. Playing Riders On The Storm on vinyl after the test really gave the falling rain a great presence in the room, really quite excellent.

 

[Anonymous]

shooter69:For the last hour or so i have listened to an album on both the CD and TT. The chosen album was The Doors LA woman, i have the digitally remastered CD and the 180g re-issuse of 2008

Out of interest, is the 2008 vinyl the recent remixed version as on the 2008 CD?

Would be interesting to throw in the various Elektra, Rhino, and DCC vinyl versions and original, 1999 remixes, DCC, Audio Fidelity (think there is one?) CDs + DVD-A into the test. Not sure what would come out on top?

I don't know that much about the differences of these as I'm only a casual fan (only got the 1999 box set which suffices). At a guess, based on what I have read from other people, I would suspect it won't be the 2008 CD in anyones' books. DCC CD versus Rhino vinyl might be interesting?

 

[Charlie Jefferson]

Manassas:
shooter69:For the last hour or so i have listened to an album on both the CD and TT. The chosen album was The Doors LA woman, i have the digitally remastered CD and the 180g re-issuse of 2008

Out of interest, is the 2008 vinyl the recent remixed version as on the 2008 CD?

Would be interesting to throw in the various Elektra, Rhino, and DCC vinyl versions and original, 1999 remixes, DCC, Audio Fidelity (think there is one?) CDs + DVD-A into the test. Not sure what would come out on top?

I don't know that much about the differences of these as I'm only a casual fan (only got the 1999 box set which suffices). At a guess, based on what I have read from other people, I would suspect it won't be the 2008 CD in anyones' books. DCC CD versus Rhino vinyl might be interesting?

I've got an original UK pressing of LA Woman, and it sounds pretty ordinary on my turntable, to be honest. I wish it didn't, because I love it when a vinyl copy triumphs over the digital version. For me, it doesn't happen with LA Woman. (The CD I own is the standard mid-80s(?) release).

Five examples of vinyl thrashing CD in my collection:

1) The Nightfly - Donald Fagen
2) Best of John Fahey 1959-77
3) Technique - New Order
4) This Nation's Saving Grace - The Fall
5) Harvest - Neil Young

All, bar no.5, standard vinyl issues.

 

[Anonymous]

Charlie Jefferson:5) Harvest - Neil Young

All, bar no.5, standard vinyl issues.

Ooooh does that mean it's from the 'Official Release Series' 180gram Chris Bellman mastered box set? That is meant to be something veeeerry special! Haven't bought it yet myself as I'm reluctant to stump up the cash. Know I'll be kicking myself if I don't get it though.

Got the new Tim Mulligan mastered CDs which are none too shabby either (way better than the original CDs - which is a rare thing to say nowadays - not that the originals were bad in the first place), many reports of the before mentioned vinyl box set topping them though.

 

[Charlie Jefferson]

Manassas:
Charlie Jefferson:5) Harvest - Neil Young

All, bar no.5, standard vinyl issues.

Ooooh does that mean it's from the 'Official Release Series' 180gram Chris Bellman mastered box set? That is meant to be something veeeerry special! Haven't bought it yet myself as I'm reluctant to stump up the cash. Know I'll be kicking myself if I don't get it though.

Got the new Tim Mulligan mastered CDs which are none too shabby either (way better than the original CDs - which is a rare thing to say nowadays - not that the originals were bad in the first place), many reports of the before mentioned vinyl box set topping them though.

Yes, it's from the four album Official Release box set, and yes it does sound fantastic. If you'll indulge me here, I can tell you that I've been able to compare it to the original vinyl version, the standard CD and the recent Tim Mulligan one, and the Blu-Ray version in the Archives Vol.1 box.

My own rankings would be:

1) 180g
2) Blu-ray
3) 2009 CD
4) original vinyl
5) first CD version.

I've also got to give a mention to the debut NY album in the vinyl box set, it sounds incredible. A strange album indeed, not one of my favourite Neil albums really, but it sounds lovely in it's latest vinyl incarnation. It's quietly psychedelic folky ways sound so pristine.

 

[Anonymous]

Turntales are musical instruments in their own right, CD players just replay recordings. I have still to hear a more musical sound than a Turntable, even a cheap one!

 

[pete321]

drrockwell:Turntales are musical instruments in their own right, CD players just replay recordings. I have still to hear a more musical sound than a Turntable, even a cheap one!

Not so when the digital signal is fed through a good DAC, opamps, capacitors, etc can be modified to get the sound you want or prefer. My DacMagic only looks like a DacMagic on the outside, inside it's been transformed to turn digital signals into something special with a Level 4 + Bursons upgrade.

 

[shooter]

Manassas:
Out of interest, is the 2008 vinyl the recent remixed version as on the 2008 CD?g?

The LP is the 2009 not 2008 Rhino vinyl featuring the original mixes on 180g and the CD is the 1999 digital remaster taken from the original 2 track masters to 96khz 24 bit by the man himself Bruce Botnick who produced the original and Bernie Grundman at his studio in Hollywood.

Theres no SPARS code on the CD so i'll presume it would be AAD but i could be wrong with the LP being AAA.

 

[the record spot]

Manassas:
shooter69:For the last hour or so i have listened to an album on both the CD and TT. The chosen album was The Doors LA woman, i have the digitally remastered CD and the 180g re-issuse of 2008

Out of interest, is the 2008 vinyl the recent remixed version as on the 2008 CD?

Would be interesting to throw in the various Elektra, Rhino, and DCC vinyl versions and original, 1999 remixes, DCC, Audio Fidelity (think there is one?) CDs + DVD-A into the test. Not sure what would come out on top?

I don't know that much about the differences of these as I'm only a casual fan (only got the 1999 box set which suffices). At a guess, based on what I have read from other people, I would suspect it won't be the 2008 CD in anyones' books. DCC CD versus Rhino vinyl might be interesting?

Bet someone's done that shootout on the Steve Hoffman forum! And then decided the original CD was best...

 

[hammill]

drrockwell:Turntales are musical instruments in their own right, CD players just replay recordings. I have still to hear a more musical sound than a Turntable, even a cheap one!
Please tell me you were drinking when you wrote this.

 

[Tonya]

It's with great trepidation that I'm popping my head up in this thread
From an engineering point of view, a digital signal will only ever be an approximation of the original waveform that was captured at the time of recording, more like a series of blocky steps than a smooth wave if you will.
However, the more steps you use, the more accurate the approximation will sound and the closer it will be to the original waveform.

From am emotional point of view, you can't really beat the experience from a well recorded and pressed platter on a well set up turntable and associated equipment in a carefully controlled enviroment.

To this day I still use an old Mobile Fidelity pressing of Thelma Huston & Pressure Cooker as my reference disc of choice when evaluating the purchase of new loudspeakers or amplifiers for either home or professional use.

Of course there are other elements (no pun intended!) to be taken into consideration as previous posters have pointed out, such as sheer convenience and durability.
But I also feel that the real art of tinkering about trying to eek out that last ounce of quality from a HiFi setup is rapidly dying out with the current mp3 generation.

Digital home cinema systems do sound great when it comes to the shoot 'em up punch 'em out gendre but do tend to show their limitations and lack of envolvement when trying to reproduce serious music.
It's just not emotional enough if you know what I mean.

Multichannel CD releases are a big passion of mine at the moment as I've found that they reveal much more of the music as there are more channels to play with and the intracacies (?) are more apparent than on the standard 2 channel vinyl (don't mention QS!).
But again, as revealing as this system is, it can sound quite clinical.

Horses for courses I guess, but short of the live experience, a well pressed disc on a good system is the closest you're going to get IMHO to The Real Thing.

Maybe some day digital will be able to convey the warmth and passion of a performance and I've heard a few systems that come close but there is much work to be done before we say bye bye to our beloved 12 inchers.

 

[shooter]

the record spot:Bet someone's done that shootout on the Steve Hoffman forum! And then decided the original CD was best...

Yes probably! Unlike Steve's gaff my doors are open if anyone want to have a listen. The only proviso is you bring some beers!

 

[shooter]

hammill:Please tell me you were drinking when you wrote this.

Yes probably a cup of tea!

I'm sure the doc only means the set up and tune/tweak aspect of a turntable, i'm pretty sure he didn't mean playing it like a clarinet!

 

[hammill]

shooter69:hammill:Please tell me you were drinking when you wrote this. Yes probably a cup of tea! I'm sure the doc only means the set up and tune/tweak aspect of a turntable, i'm pretty sure he didn't mean playing it like a clarinet!That is what you thought he meant? Your parser must be very different from mine.

 

[shooter]

hammill:shooter69:hammill:Please tell me you were drinking when you wrote this. Yes probably a cup of tea! I'm sure the doc only means the set up and tune/tweak aspect of a turntable, i'm pretty sure he didn't mean playing it like a clarinet!That is what you thought he meant? Your parser must be very different from mine.

Looks that way.

 

[manicm]

Does the OP have a direct-drive Technics turntable? I read sometime ago that even Linn acknowledged Technics' achievement with some of their models.

But what I want to know is that will a 300 quid turntable sound as good as a 300 quid CDP, or vice versa?

 

[manicm]

As much as I loved vinyl when I got my first CDP I never looked back, didn't miss any of that perceived warmth, because I never perceived any coldness from CDs, well not from my first player anyway.

 

[the record spot]

Hmmm, not so long ago, Goldring did a package of their GR2 turntable, partnered it with a Goldring 1012GX cartridge (I think it was - maybe the 1022) and slapped a £265 price tag on it. Bearing in mind the GR2 was effectively a rebadged Rega P2, slightly modified, and the cartridge was about £120 on its own at the time, the thing was massively underpriced!

So yes, that pairing would spank the hindlegs of quite a few CDPs at the same price!

 

[shooter]

manicm:
Does the OP have a direct-drive Technics turntable? I read sometime ago that even Linn acknowledged Technics' achievement with some of their models.

And as we know Linn make some fine turntables.

Its also good to see direct drive still being made in Germany also with a company called Brinkman. There latest range has two DD TT's the Oasis and the Bardo which by all accounts has had some plaudits.

 

[Anonymous]

Charlie Jefferson:My own rankings would be: 1) 180g 2) Blu-ray 3) 2009 CD 4) original vinyl 5) first CD version.

Your list is similar to what I've read from many. It's gone decidedly quiet on the Blu-ray releases of the studio albums. No mention of it for Archives II either. Perhaps Neil's got bored of the format? aaaaand Archives II will be vinyl! Ahem.. Looks like we'll all be driving LincVolts with slot loading vinyl players in the dashboard - it's the vision of the future. Oh to live in Neil's head.

Charlie Jefferson:I've also got to give a mention to the debut NY album in the vinyl box set, it sounds incredible. A strange album indeed, not one of my favourite Neil albums really, but it sounds lovely in it's latest vinyl incarnation. It's quietly psychedelic folky ways sound so pristine.

Love the self titled too. A last glance over the shoulder to the mighty Springfield days before he truly finds himself with 'Everybody knows.'

shooter69:The LP is the 2009 not 2008 Rhino vinyl featuring the original mixes on 180g and the CD is the 1999 digital remaster taken from the original 2 track masters to 96khz 24 bit by the man himself Bruce Botnick who produced the original and Bernie Grundman at his studio in Hollywood.

That's the CD mastering I've got. I thought I'd put it on after many years. It sounded decidedly 'meh' - neither particularly great or bad. I wasn't rushing to get the tarpaulins out during Riders on the Storm. I followed it up with the older Island Masters version of Richard and Linda Thompson's 'I Want to see the Bright Lights Tonight'. I nearly got up to make Linda a cup of tea - pink label Island vinyl next for that one.

I really must get round to upgrading my crummy decks! Not finished paying off the speakers yet though and I'm hating having less money to spend on music as a result (graciously bows to Charlie Jefferson's heroic spend free ten months).

 

[Anonymous]

manicm:
Does the OP have a direct-drive Technics turntable? I read sometime ago that even Linn acknowledged Technics' achievement with some of their models.

But what I want to know is that will a 300 quid turntable sound as good as a 300 quid CDP, or vice versa?

The Technics is a direct drive SL 10. It was second hand, and together with the cartridge cost 160?. Given that the Ortofon MCs are analytical nature, the technics sound is closer to CD than my other deck which uses a Grado. You'd never describe the technics/Ortofon combination as warm.

The answer to your first question then is a definite "yes" if you buy second hand. For new I'd suggest that 600? would be a figure closer to the mark - something like a Rega P-24 with an AT 120E. Unfortunately cheaper decks tend to have their faults, either in speed stability or noise from the motor which makes CD players better buys.

 

[Charlie Jefferson]

Manassas:
Charlie Jefferson:My own rankings would be: 1) 180g 2) Blu-ray 3) 2009 CD 4) original vinyl 5) first CD version.

Your list is similar to what I've read from many. It's gone decidedly quiet on the Blu-ray releases of the studio albums. No mention of it for Archives II either. Perhaps Neil's got bored of the format? aaaaand Archives II will be vinyl! Ahem.. Looks like we'll all be driving LincVolts with slot loading vinyl players in the dashboard - it's the vision of the future. Oh to live in Neil's head.

Yes, it certainly seems a weird and wonderful place to be. The same mind that gave us Trans, Everybody's Rockin' and Landing On Water. All of which I bought at the time and liked. The latter is in my NY Top 20! I can't wait for Archives Vol.2, and vinyl too. Great stuff

nd vinyl next for that one.
I really must get round to upgrading my crummy decks! Not finished paying off the speakers yet though and I'm hating having less money to spend on music as a result (graciously bows to Charlie Jefferson's heroic spend free ten months).

 

[Charlie Jefferson]

It looks like I botched my reply to you Manassas.

Anyway, this self-imposed buying embargo is severely in jeopardy if NYA Vol.2 actually appears anytime soon.

If it follows the first volume's protracted release schedule, it should be out around 2020. I might have paid for my speakers/amps by then.

 

[shooter]

Manassas:
That's the CD mastering I've got. I thought I'd put it on after many years. It sounded decidedly 'meh'

Pretty much so but i couldn't believe the difference of the two when i purchased the LP. Considering the CD and vinyl versions are direct of the masters and produced by the same man the difference is huge.

Manassas:
I really must get round to upgrading my crummy decks!

Any ideas of what you want? Have you auditioned yet?