Why is vinyl so much better than digital?

[admin_exported]

I pose the question because a slight accident at my local dealer ended in a new Ortofon MC cartridge adorning my vintage Technics turntable. Still running in, but once again I have an analogue source that leaves my CD and SACD player way behind. It's not just the detail, it's the fullness of sound that CDs somehow miss.

Why is this? Leaving aside the ease-of-use issue, how did the world get duped into accepting a format whose sound quality did not match the format it replaced?

 

[Clare Newsome]

Tarquinh:
I pose the question because a slight accident at my local dealer ended in a new Ortofon MC cartridge adorning my vintage Technics turntable. Still running in, but once again I have an analogue source that leaves my CD and SACD player way behind. It's not just the detail, it's the fullness of sound that CDs somehow miss.

Why is this? Leaving aside the ease-of-use issue, how did the world get duped into accepting a format whose sound quality did not match the format it replaced?

The move from vinyl to CD is nothing in terms of quality-difference as the one from CD to MP3 is. (Or FM to DAB

)

And it's all about convenience.

 

[Charlie Jefferson]

Tarquinh:
I pose the question because a slight accident at my local dealer ended in a new Ortofon MC cartridge adorning my vintage Technics turntable. Still running in, but once again I have an analogue source that leaves my CD and SACD player way behind. It's not just the detail, it's the fullness of sound that CDs somehow miss.

Why is this? Leaving aside the ease-of-use issue, how did the world get duped into accepting a format whose sound quality did not match the format it replaced?

I sort of agree, but have you heard a Chord DAC? In my current set-up, (see below), digital streaming and CD have the edge on vinyl in all the criteria you mention. The DAC gives the digital stuff a wondrous warmth very much like the best of vinyl, if not better.

I don't say this blithely, having come back to the wonders of vinyl a few years ago, and still loving what it does when all the usual variable suspects are taken into account.

 

[plastic penguin]

Clare Newsome:Tarquinh:

I pose the question because a slight accident at my local dealer ended in a new Ortofon MC cartridge adorning my vintage Technics turntable. Still running in, but once again I have an analogue source that leaves my CD and SACD player way behind. It's not just the detail, it's the fullness of sound that CDs somehow miss.

Why is this? Leaving aside the ease-of-use issue, how did the world get duped into accepting a format whose sound quality did not match the format it replaced?

The move from vinyl to CD is nothing in terms of quality-difference as the one from CD to MP3 is. (Or FM to DAB

)

And it's all about convenience.

Oooh, the DAB word is a sore point in the penguin household.

 

[JoelSim]

Tarquinh:
I pose the question because a slight accident at my local dealer ended in a new Ortofon MC cartridge adorning my vintage Technics turntable. Still running in, but once again I have an analogue source that leaves my CD and SACD player way behind. It's not just the detail, it's the fullness of sound that CDs somehow miss.

Why is this? Leaving aside the ease-of-use issue, how did the world get duped into accepting a format whose sound quality did not match the format it replaced?

Get yourself a decent valve CDP rather than a digitalus Cyrus/Naim/Cambridge/Roksan type thing.

You will find the differences are far less in the areas that you mention.

 

[SteveR750]

+1 for Tarquins observations, i.e. mine too. My Linn was way better to listen to than the Cyrus from a musicalness if such a word exists. I have several theories none of which bear explanation on an internet forum. I don't subscribe to the convenience factor either - CD's are a pain to store, neither small enough to be really convenient, nor large enough to warrant a special home for them.

 

[JoelSim]

SteveR750:+1 for Tarquins observations, i.e. mine too. My Linn was way better to listen to than the Cyrus from a musicalness if such a word exists. I have several theories none of which bear explanation on an internet forum. I don't subscribe to the convenience factor either - CD's are a pain to store, neither small enough to be really convenient, nor large enough to warrant a special home for them.

The key word is Cyrus. Nasty, tinny, uninvolving, digital-sounding rubbish.

 

[basshead]

SteveR750:I don't subscribe to the convenience factor either - CD's are a pain to store, neither small enough to be really convenient, nor large enough to warrant a special home for them.

have you ever tried carrying a stack of 20 vinyl lp's to a mates house for a party? or had to shift 100's of them while moving house? they are stupidly heavy! cd's are waaaaaay more convenient.

lets face it, only a small minority of people really care, or could possibly notice, any difference in quality between sources. for example, are standard def tv's really better picture quality than old crt's? i certainly dont think so; i've yet to see a lcd or plasma that matches an old crt on colour quality or reliability. there are literaly 1000's of great big crt's being given away for free every time students move house, they just dont break. i gave away 4 of the last month because they're too heavy to move each year. people got rid of them because they wanted a flat screen or just feel the need to move with the times.

the sad reality of it is. the format with the best quality does not win out. the one best marketed or most convenient does.

 

[shooter]

basshead:
cd's are waaaaaay more convenient.

Yes this is why they will be obsolete before the LP.

 

[basshead]

SteveR750: I don't subscribe to the convenience factor either - CD's are a pain to store, neither small enough to be really convenient, nor large enough to warrant a special home for them.

have you tried carrying 20 vinyl albums to a mates house to a party? or had to move house with 100's of them with no car? their weight soon adds up to a lot! as much as i hate them, cd's are way more convenient. my gripe with cd's isnt sound quality, it is how flimsy they are, a few scratches and they dont work.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Tarquinh: I pose the question because a slight accident at my local dealer ended in a new Ortofon MC cartridge adorning my vintage Technics turntable. Still running in, but once again I have an analogue source that leaves my CD and SACD player way behind. It's not just the detail, it's the fullness of sound that CDs somehow miss.

Why is this? Leaving aside the ease-of-use issue, how did the world get duped into accepting a format whose sound quality did not match the format it replaced?

We were all told it was "perfect", so many assumed it sounded better. What everyone heard was no background noise, and assumed it was perfect. Personally, I think Sony/Philips should be taken to court for CD's original tag line, "perfect sound, forever".

 

[Frank Harvey]

JoelSim:The key word is Cyrus. Nasty, tinny, uninvolving, digital-sounding rubbish.

Which Cyrus components have you heard if you don't mind me asking?

 

[JoelSim]

FrankHarveyHiFi:
JoelSim:The key word is Cyrus. Nasty, tinny, uninvolving, digital-sounding rubbish.

Which Cyrus components have you heard if you don't mind me asking?

Several, the last of which was an XT-se & DAC combo with several amps and PSX-Rs, playing through Monitor Audio Platinums and it sounded dreadful. Harsh, lacking musicality, lacking substance, lacking involvement, just lacking any of the niceties of music as I know it. I think it was £14k's worth all in. Nasty.

 

[Frank Harvey]

shooter69:basshead:

cd's are waaaaaay more convenient.

Yes this is why they will be obsolete before the LP.

Agreed. In a few years time, there will be more demand for vinyl than there will for CD. Everyone will be downloading instead of buying CD's, it's the way it's going. You can't download something that sounds like vinyl. Hence, it's demand will pick up more so in the nexy few years. I'm sure it hasn't escaped everyone's notice about the article stating that turntables are outselling CD players.

In 5 years time, those that have gone totally digital will hear a high quality turntable. It will suddenly click with them that what they have at home has no soul, no life, and no value.

 

[Frank Harvey]

JoelSim:Several, the last of which was an XT-se & DAC combo with several amps and PSX-Rs, playing through Monitor Audio Platinums and it sounded dreadful. Harsh, lacking musicality, lacking substance, lacking involvement, just lacking any of the niceties of music as I know it. I think it was £14k's worth all in. Nasty.

Hmmm. As good as the Platinums might be, it wouldn't be my first choice to showcase a system like that. But, it's an understandable view point of someone who runs a valve amp. But then, some people can't stand the sound of valve amps. Good job we're all different, otherwise we'd all be listening to the same thing, and not arguing about anything on a forum....

 

[JoelSim]

The time before that was in the Cyrus demo room at the WHF show in Kensington, again very underwhelming. Especially when compared to another room playing a TT on a plinth/pedestal through Wilson Benesch floorstanders just down the corridor which sounded beautiful. Can't remember what the TT was though, perhaps a Michell???

 

[JoelSim]

FrankHarveyHiFi:
JoelSim:Several, the last of which was an XT-se & DAC combo with several amps and PSX-Rs, playing through Monitor Audio Platinums and it sounded dreadful. Harsh, lacking musicality, lacking substance, lacking involvement, just lacking any of the niceties of music as I know it. I think it was £14k's worth all in. Nasty.

Hmmm. As good as the Platinums might be, it wouldn't be my first choice to showcase a system like that. But, it's an understandable view point of someone who runs a valve amp. But then, some people can't stand the sound of valve amps. Good job we're all different, otherwise we'd all be listening to the same thing, and not arguing about anything on a forum....

I don't have a valve amp, but even a valve amp can sound bad through trebbly speakers. On a recent demo with a Unison P70 I had to change the speakers as the Opera Grand Callas were making me cringe. A change to some little Diapason Karis standmounts did the trick.

I agree on the MA/Cyrus point though. Just never going to work.

 

[Frank Harvey]

That'll teach me for reading the first two words of your kit list

 

[JoelSim]

FrankHarveyHiFi:
That'll teach me for reading the first two words of your kit list

Yes it will Frank.

By the way, what is your favourite CD based combo David?

 

[landzw]

Good Points Frank Harvey and i agree , but the only problem is not many people will ever get the chance to listen to vinyl and when given the chance they just won't be interested as its not going to fit onto there ipods

 

[chebby]

FrankHarveyHiFi:[I'm sure it hasn't escaped everyone's notice about the article stating that turntables are outselling CD players.

Yes, but most of those turntables are cheap USB turntables that plug into PCs.

Here is the relevant bit from the trends report in Clare's blog...

"However, the CD player market remains more lucrative - the average price
has risen 31% to £386 (with a 57% rise in sales for £1000+ players),
while the average selling price of a turntable has fallen 10% to just
£122. That shows the real popularity area: budget and USB decks."

£122 does not buy a Linn Sondek or any other quality TT that you might thinks supports these CD vs Vinyl comparisons.

The 'average' £386 CD player is going to slay the 'average' £122 turntable (using the figures in the report.)

I say that as a fan of the qualities of vinyl sound, and leaving aside all arguments about convenience or aesthetics

 

[Frank Harvey]

chebby: The 'average' £386 CD player is going to slay the 'average' £122 turntable (using the figures in the report.)Hardly a fair comparison, but I always remember pitting a £40 (in the 70's) Pioneer PL12D against a very well regarded £1,000 CD player (this was in 1992/1993), and the turntable sounded better.

 

[JoelSim]

chebby:
FrankHarveyHiFi:[I'm sure it hasn't escaped everyone's notice about the article stating that turntables are outselling CD players.

Yes, but most of those turntables are cheap USB turntables that plug into PCs.

Here is the relevant bit from the trends report in Clare's blog...

"However, the CD player market remains more lucrative - the average price has risen 31% to £386 (with a 57% rise in sales for £1000+ players), while the average selling price of a turntable has fallen 10% to just £122. That shows the real popularity area: budget and USB decks."

£122 does not buy a Linn Sondek or any other quality TT that you might thinks supports these CD vs Vinyl comparisons.

The 'average' £386 CD player is going to slay the 'average' £122 turntable (using the figures in the report.)

Yep.

It will be interesting to see how long the USB TT lasts. My bet is that it is your average DJ transferring his vinyl tunes to his laptop, so that he doesn't have to lug several crates of records around any more.

 

[JoelSim]

FrankHarveyHiFi:
chebby: The 'average' £386 CD player is going to slay the 'average' £122 turntable (using the figures in the report.)Hardly a fair comparison, but I always remember pitting a £40 (in the 70's) Pioneer PL12D against a very well regarded £1,000 CD player (this was in 1992/1993), and the turntable sounded better.

The PL12D was the TT that got me into hifi as my dad had one. I always remember loving the sound when I was growing up.

 

[Frank Harvey]

JoelSim:Yep.

It will be interesting to see how long the USB TT lasts. My bet is that it is your average DJ transferring his vinyl tunes to his laptop, so that he doesn't have to lug several crates of records around any more.

To be fair, rubbish DJ's have been doing that since the dawn of MiniDisc. Real DJ's still use vinyl.