Who has ATC SCM40 - any comments?

[lordmortlock]

hey ChrisMM

Sounds like you had a very similar experience to me! Lovely people, really helpful. I live just down the road from the factory. Whereabouts are you?

Interesting to hear what you say about the active 50s. If anything I think they show what good bits of kit the 40' are - like you say they certainly weren't embarrassed. I found the low end perfectly adequate but then I'm not a huge fan of the Monitor audio style block party bass.

Can't wait for mine to arrive.

 

[Anonymous]

ChrisMM:

Hello again.

Went to the ATC factory this morning - quite near where I live, and spent a happy couple of hours listening and being shown round - many thanks to Bob (I think! not Bill, anyway) for all his time and patience. Amazing place when you consider the number of people working there (not many) and the overall size of the operation. They can produce stunning systems for studios, bands, concert halls etc to order - in other words, to fit the requirements precisely. Also one of the few true remaining UK manufacturers.

The SCM40s were driven by the new pre-power which is pretty much the same as the £2250-ish integrated, well over 100 watts and looks like exceptional value itself. Partnered by the rather lovely and sadly now superseded Meridian 508, the total cost of the system was the equivalent of about £6k.

Certainly I think the speakers were the stars of the show. Over my Dynaudios, they have next to no cabinet boom, no room-shaking ported flop, and more than anything a wonderfully open and wide-screen midrange. This is very hard to do in conventional 2-way systems, and it's rare to find a true 3-way for this sort of money - PMC do one for over £3.5k but apparently the bass can be excessive. No doubt ATC's mid-range dome is as good as you can get. I think anyone finding them lacking in bass in a demo situation - i.e. direct A-B with a speaker designed with perhaps too much - should take them home if poss and see how this benefits the overall sound in a real listening environment.

We did have a listen to the active SCM50 towers, which in the standard form at £8k ish also represent amazing value considering what's in them. All I can say is that, wonderful though these were, the 40s still sounded pretty darn good afterwards.

My only hesitation is that ATC are currently working on their own tweeter design, though this will be entirely retrofittable to existing speakers.

Excellent review ChrisMM.

Very pleased to see some insightful and reasoned posts on ATC speakers. I do tire of the often repeated 'received wisdom' of -

"they're too neutral/ honest.."

"they don't have much bass.."

"they're really hard to drive/ you need very powerful amps to drive them.."

Thank heavens for some common sense!

 

[plastic penguin]

crimsondonkey:ChrisMM:

Hello again.

Went to the ATC factory this morning - quite near where I live, and spent a happy couple of hours listening and being shown round - many thanks to Bob (I think! not Bill, anyway) for all his time and patience. Amazing place when you consider the number of people working there (not many) and the overall size of the operation. They can produce stunning systems for studios, bands, concert halls etc to order - in other words, to fit the requirements precisely. Also one of the few true remaining UK manufacturers.

The SCM40s were driven by the new pre-power which is pretty much the same as the £2250-ish integrated, well over 100 watts and looks like exceptional value itself. Partnered by the rather lovely and sadly now superseded Meridian 508, the total cost of the system was the equivalent of about £6k.

Certainly I think the speakers were the stars of the show. Over my Dynaudios, they have next to no cabinet boom, no room-shaking ported flop, and more than anything a wonderfully open and wide-screen midrange. This is very hard to do in conventional 2-way systems, and it's rare to find a true 3-way for this sort of money - PMC do one for over £3.5k but apparently the bass can be excessive. No doubt ATC's mid-range dome is as good as you can get. I think anyone finding them lacking in bass in a demo situation - i.e. direct A-B with a speaker designed with perhaps too much - should take them home if poss and see how this benefits the overall sound in a real listening environment.

We did have a listen to the active SCM50 towers, which in the standard form at £8k ish also represent amazing value considering what's in them. All I can say is that, wonderful though these were, the 40s still sounded pretty darn good afterwards.

My only hesitation is that ATC are currently working on their own tweeter design, though this will be entirely retrofittable to existing speakers.

Excellent review ChrisMM.

Very pleased to see some insightful and reasoned posts on ATC speakers. I do tire of the often repeated 'received wisdom' of -

"they're too neutral/ honest.."

"they don't have much bass.."

"they're really hard to drive/ you need very powerful amps to drive them.."

Thank heavens for some common sense!

I'm the guilty one here. I do think they are excellent speakers (as mentioned in my post some time ago), given the comments in the review and my own personal experience, they do exactly what it says on the tin.

My only cautionary angle is: great speakers but. . . . .

Which proves hi-fi, however wonderful, isn't perfect.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Crimsondonkey,

i totally agree with you on this post.it will be refreshing if certain members here on the forum cut us some slack on forever re-occuring comments any time ATC is mentioned.

Enough said.

 

[plastic penguin]

benharlley:

Hi Crimsondonkey,

i totally agree with you on this post.it will be refreshing if certain members here on the forum cut us some slack on forever re-occuring comments any time ATC is mentioned.

Enough said.

Oooh, it could be worse. As an Arcam and Monitor Audio Silver devotee. . . . .

 

[Frank Harvey]

Excellent review Chris. Very pleased to see some insightful and reasoned posts on ATC speakers. I do tire of the often repeated 'received wisdom' of "they're too neutral/ honest..This a subjective one. While there is technicaly a speaker that could be neutral, personal preferences will always produce differing ideas on what is and what isn't neutral. Even people's perception of neutral can differ.

"they don't have much bass.."Same again.

"they're really hard to drive/you need very powerful amps to drive them.."Same again really. While a good quality 50w amplifier will drive some 11's fine in an average living room, it doesn't mean it's going to work in a high ceiling, through lounge. Als, people's perception of whether a speaker is being driven properly also varies.

 

[Anonymous]

Err FH you might have missed the point (apologies if you haven't!) - I was making a point over the over used and typical comments that arise time and time again when ATC gets mentioned, a lot of its either ill informed or regurgitating whats been said elsewhere with little personal experience.

Of course its all subjective which is fine as long as its in the context of listening experiences and the background of what other kit is involved - there's just too much generalisation along with the subjectivity which doesn't make what are well intentioned comments particularly valuable or helpful - okay mini rant over!

Just so we're clear its not aimed at anybody so no-one need feel guilty or 'got at', its just a frustration of mine.

Incidentally FH, you have recently begun stocking ATC's - what do you use amplification wise to demonstrate them?

 

[Frank Harvey]

I replied 'just in case' one of those was aimed at me

I do agree though that there are many things, not just about ATC, that tend to be regurgitated by a few who like to come across as omnipotent (rife on a.n.other forum). It's only really those who have head first hand experience that can truly have a valid opinion. If people said "a friend of mine heard them and said", rather than stating it as their own fact then it wouldn't be so bad. And don't even get me started on ill-informed!

We started stocking ATC Dec/Jan, which was something I'd wanted to do for a long time after hearing them at a Bristol show about 5 years ago. Admittedly it was either the 'Classic' SCM50's or 100's (can't remember), but I just remember hearing a drum track on them and knowing that was the closest I've ever heard to a set of drums being played in front of me. We think the SCM11 is the strongest of the group, taking everything including price into account. They just reproduce more styles of music than any equivalently priced speakers well, and really give you a taste of what high end speakers are about, and it's a speaker myself and Kevin here prefer to many other more expensive speakers. If we had to choose a speaker below £1k, it'd be the SCM11.

As far is amplification is concerned, all new speakers to the store are run in on on either a Naim CD5i/Nait 5i, CD5x/NAC152xs/NAP155xs, or CDX2/NAC202/NAP200/Hi-Cap system (depending on the speakers power/quality needs). These are systems which are ready to go in our main hi-fi dem room. We started the SCM11 off on the Nait system, which sounded fine, but when we moved up to the Nait XS they improved no end, showing that the Nait isn't quite the best amp for the job. The obvious thing to do from there would be to transfer to the (what was then) CD5x/NAC122x/NAP150x system. Once again, the difference was marked. The pre/power had a more detailed, edgier sound with more life to it, whereas the Nait XS was a little softer and smoother. Personal preference here, buy myself and Kevin are into the likes of the Foo's, Radiohead, Oasis etc, which isn't always the best recorded. We were quite bowled over by the ATC's ability to produce these and similar styles of music in a listenable fashion. So I tried a few other styles like Boards Of Canada, BTand Elysian Fields. Everything was handled equally well.

Models lke the SCM40 have much more fierce competition to deal with for it to be a straight win like it is for the SCM11. Strong models from ProAc, Spendor, KEF etc see to that. But where the SCM40 wins over is it's all round ability, rather than some manufacturer's speaker's preference for certain styles of music. I've heard other big name speakers sound great with simple music, but just become unlistenable when things get busy, or when they have to try and reproduce indie or badly recorded music.

Sorry, rambling

 

[Anonymous]

FrankHarveyHiFi:
I replied 'just in case' one of those was aimed at me

Guilty conscience eh?!

Just kidding, like I say it wasn't 'aimed' more blunderbuss! Actually when you went on to talk about good with all kinds of music and recordings of variable quality that would I hope answer Plastic Penguin's concerns noted earlier about pretty much the same thing.

Anyway back to the knitting! Anyone else got SCM40's with a comment/ review?

BTW I hope to get mine very soon..

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the replies.

FrankHHF - interesting to hear you run ATCs in with a Naim 200 - I would be using SCM40s initially at least with a NAP250 (new style, nominal 80 watts). It would no doubt work fine - Naim amps seem to be able to get a decent sound out of all but the silliest loads - but interested in your views.

Also interested that the SCM40s, though rated at 85db (fairly insensitive) are also 8ohm (a 'normal' load to the amp) - whereas most Dynaudios for example are 4ohms - a harder load I guess.

You also mentioned the Bristol show ATC were at - I mentioned that to Bob Polley (I was there too) and he said they hadn't been there for ages. Like you, I thought the sound in that room was superb, rivalling Naim's new CDS3 into DBLs upstairs!, and to me it showed that a decent system gets past most room issues and that using hotel room problems as an excuse is, er, an excuse for a poor (badly balanced) system.

Have you done a direct comparison with, say, the Dynaudio Focus 220?

 

[Frank Harvey]

I think it was about 5 years ago, maybe 6.

Dynaudio, for me, is one of those manufacturers who don't produce consistent sounding speakers. Yes, they have, and do, produce some great sounding speakers like the Audience 42 and 52 (I fell in love with the Evidence Temptations at our Naim/Dynaudio evening a couple of years ago), but some models just don't match up to the competition. Other than the 110 and 140, I've not been a huge fan of the Focus range - they're just too bass heavy and need loads of room! Yes, they are 4ohms, which is a problem with inadequate amplification. The ATC's are 8ohms, which is an easy load, but the SCM11, 19 and 40's are all 86dB (the SCM7 is 85dB). This may not seem much of an issue to some, but along with the Spendor S5e and A5, but it does need more powerful amplification. We've done many dems with the previously mentioned speakers, and SCM11's, where some amps just can't inject enough life into them, even when their volume control is almost at the 12 o'clock position, and as most people will know, is pretty much an amplifier's max safe volume. You need headroom, otherwise dynamics are going to stifled and you'll end up with a flat sounding system, and even worse if the amp hasn't had time to warm up and settle.

The 250 will be excellent for the 40's - they'll lap up that extra current

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Rob18653:

Well, first post here, but I'll share my two cents worth of knowledge...

I can only recommend the SCM40's: they are a great, natural sounding speaker: they really reproduce the information you are feeding into them. This means: excellent recording, fabulous sound and thrilling mids; but bad recordings, similar sound. Don't buy ATC if you want all your CDs to sound the same, however if you really would like to hear what the producer intended to do, then you are in the right place.

Don't get confused by all comments around sensitivity and high power etc... In my experience, pay particular attention to the pre-amp you are using. It should be capable of delivering sufficient output current. Without that, you might end up with a thin, harsh sound, lacking bass etc. irrespective of the amount of power you put behind it.

From my own experience, I have been driving the SCM40s with Cyrus' Mono Xs and Monoblocked-Power's thru a Cyrus Pre-X pre amp. Not completely satisfied with the sound I was hearing, I blamed the output of the Mono's and tried different power-amps. However, at the end of the day it appeared the pre-amp being mainly responsible for the distorted reproduction. Changed to a simple NAD, job done. Even with a simple 15-year old Cyrus Power amp of 50 Watts, I obtained stunning results with the SCM40!

Regarding placement, my experience is that they are not fuzzy at all. One of my speakers is tugged in between a corner and a sofa and where the B&Ws were 'complaining', the ATCs don't mind at all.

It's a great speaker, especially in the new black ash veneer!

Hi Rob18653

Good post.

Thanks for your support.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Frank Harvey]

Nice.

 

[reverendo]

Sorry to enter after such a long time, but I had always been very interested in ATC after reading a few reviews and, above all, real user's comments.

In my last trip to the UK I finally had the chance to listen to them. I auditioned at Cornflake in London.

All that I can say is that I've never heard such a clear, tidy, transparent and beautiful midrange. I'm absolutely addicted to it and also loved the whole tonal balance. This is definitely the sound I've been looking for in a speaker, but I do have a few questions/doubts, so I'd appreciate if someone who knows them well could help me out:
[*]I listened to them with Naim, which really isn't my cup of tea, but on a Jazz recording they sounded lovely. On the other hand on big orchestral works (without cranking the volume up) the Naim (I think it was the 202/200 pre/power combination) and anything else more demanding and complex the amplification was forced on it's knees. These babies definitely seem to demand quite a lot of power and current. Since I'm not thinking about changing my amplification I'd like to know if anyone could give me an educated guess as to whether my Gryphon 100W amp would be able to take on this challenge. It definitely is high current and I never really thought that it might meet it's match, but the way the Naim duo was humiliated made me wonder.[*]The salesman (sorry, don't remember the name) told me that they're not very good for low-level listening. Since I have two small children most and most of my listening sessions are at night I am confined to a lot of low-level listening. Could someone tell me how they fare in this kind of situation?[*]Does anybody know of a speaker that has this kind of stunning mid-range without compromising the rest I'd be interested. I recently listened to higher-end speakers and the only one I can think of that has a similar sound is the Ascendo line, but they are costlier.
Thanks in advance for any input

best regards

Andr‚

 

[MUSICRAFT]

reverendo:
Sorry to enter after such a long time, but I had always been very interested in ATC after reading a few reviews and, above all, real user's comments.

In my last trip to the UK I finally had the chance to listen to them. I auditioned at Cornflake in London.

All that I can say is that I've never heard such a clear, tidy, transparent and beautiful midrange. I'm absolutely addicted to it and also loved the whole tonal balance. This is definitely the sound I've been looking for in a speaker, but I do have a few questions/doubts, so I'd appreciate if someone who knows them well could help me out:
[*]I listened to them with Naim, which really isn't my cup of tea, but on a Jazz recording they sounded lovely. On the other hand on big orchestral works (without cranking the volume up) the Naim (I think it was the 202/200 pre/power combination) and anything else more demanding and complex the amplification was forced on it's knees. These babies definitely seem to demand quite a lot of power and current. Since I'm not thinking about changing my amplification I'd like to know if anyone could give me an educated guess as to whether my Gryphon 100W amp would be able to take on this challenge. It definitely is high current and I never really thought that it might meet it's match, but the way the Naim duo was humiliated made me wonder.[*]The salesman (sorry, don't remember the name) told me that they're not very good for low-level listening. Since I have two small children most and most of my listening sessions are at night I am confined to a lot of low-level listening. Could someone tell me how they fare in this kind of situation?[*]Does anybody know of a speaker that has this kind of stunning mid-range without compromising the rest I'd be interested. I recently listened to higher-end speakers and the only one I can think of that has a similar sound is the Ascendo line, but they are costlier.
Thanks in advance for any input

best regards

Andr‚

Hi Andre

One of my clients uses Gryphon's Callisto 2100 integrated amplifier (100w/ch) with SCM40's and he is very happy with the combination. IME Gryphon make some of the finest amplification. Their amplifirers have always been known for (amongst their other qualities) having low distortion with high current and damping factor regardless of their specified power ratings. The ATC's lower than average efficiency on paper suggests that they might prove didfficult however they are not a reactive load. The fact is the impedance of a speaker is far more important. ATC's drive units are very constant thereby allowing an amplifier to deliver its full power all the time (prior to clipping). Some very efficient speakers have an impedance that can drop to low levels such as 2ohms. At these levels many amplifiers will struggle to deliver sufficient power or will not deliver any power at all.

The ATC's are dynamic and with their low distortion, flat and honest presenation sound more than good enough at low/moderate levels. The Gryphon's quality of power (particularly its damping factor) will also maintain greater grip over the LF unit and thereby helping with added depth at these playback levels.

I feel you're going to be hard pushed to better mid range performance of the SCM40's at the price level. The studio Soft Dome used in the SCM40's is the same as used in their SCM25A Professional monitors. Overall the SCM40's have a big performance potential and one which can punch well above their weight. Imo the SCM40's are probably the finest VFM floorstanders currently on the market regardless of price.

The SCM40's uncoloured, neutral and natural presentation will allow the qualities of your components to shine through by enabling them to breathe.

Ime ATC reproduces the stability and the power of the sound. Studio Control Monitor

Btw, i am sorry for not having finished my post earlier as i had a client come in for an arranged demo.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[reverendo]

seems that there's text missing... hope you can complete what you were 'saying'

are you talking about the 100W or 200W Callisto, since it would make a significant difference

 

[chebby]

MUSICRAFT:one of my clients uses gryphon's callisto amplifier with scm40's and has v

reverendo:seems that there's text missing... hope you can complete what you were 'saying'

Rick often turns into a large reptilian humanoid when he uses the letter "V".

He'll be alright soon and back with useful ATC related advice.

 

[reverendo]

definitely made me laugh...

hope his metamorphosis doesn't take too long...

best regards

 

[koolkeith]

Perhaps the dealers can clarify the position re. the new ATC tweeter, which if it were imminent, would make buying a new pair tomorrow a bit stupid. Which models will carry it & when will new models ship with it ? I have the 40's & the cheap ATC pre/power. The mantra one hears constantly on the forums is that the actives are light years ahead of the passives and one would be better buying a 5 year old pair of actives and sending them back to ATC for a service than pursuing new passives & amps. for approx. the same dosh. That's what I intend to do when I get fed up with the 40's. Also, I find they are a pain to get really loud cleanly though the fact my room is 25' long doesn't help.

Oh and what about the new atc CD/DAC/PRE/TOASTER is it close or should I just buy an Audiolab?

 

[Anonymous]

chebby:Rick often turns into a large reptilian humanoid when he uses the letter "V".
He'll be alright soon and back with useful ATC related advice.

He told me he didn't sell snake oil.....or speak with forked tongue.

On a scale of 1 to 10?

 

[Frank Harvey]

reverendo: I listened to them with Naim, which really isn't my cup of tea, but on a Jazz recording they sounded lovely. On the other hand on big orchestral works (without cranking the volume up) the Naim (I think it was the 202/200 pre/power combination) and anything else more demanding and complex the amplification was forced on it's knees. These babies definitely seem to demand quite a lot of power and current. Since I'm not thinking about changing my amplification I'd like to know if anyone could give me an educated guess as to whether my Gryphon 100W amp would be able to take on this challenge. It definitely is high current and I never really thought that it might meet it's match, but the way the Naim duo was humiliated made me wonder.

It would be safe to say that the Gryphon will drive the SCM40's well. Whether it will drive them to the levels YOU would like, can only be answered with a demo of that pairing.

As for the demo you had, I wouldn't say that the Naim/ATC is the best combination you can put together (although certain combinations do work well). Having said that, in the right pairing, the 200/202 is a great pre/power.

The ATC's can work well at lower volumes, but they need high current amplification to do so, as would any low sensitivity speaker. Speakers like PMC tend to sound more lively at lower volumes, but that changes when you turn the wick up. There aren't many speakers that can sound the same at low volumes as they do high volumes (partly down to the room playing more of a part in the overall sound). One alternative to look at would be the KEF Reference range.

 

[Frank Harvey]

koolkeith:The mantra one hears constantly on the forums is that the actives are light years ahead of the passives and one would be better buying a 5 year old pair of actives and sending them back to ATC for a service than pursuing new passives & amps. for approx. the same dosh. That's what I intend to do when I get fed up with the 40's.

The actives are better than the passives, but then, the actives are using better amplification than most people put with their passives, the drive units are usually better, and there's no lossy passive crossover to degrade the signal. Having said that, some people feel the actives are a little too clean, and prefer the more refined sound of a passive, with which they can tweak with their own amplification.

Oh and what about the new atc CD/DAC/PRE/TOASTER is it close or should I just buy an Audiolab?

Some things are worth waiting for. I'm sure it'll be worth the wait, and justify it's place in the market. For a high quality system, I'd rather buy the best CD player I can get.

 

[reverendo]

Hi David,
thanks for answering. I very rarely listen to music in loud volumes. I'm more of a mid-level listener even when I could crank up the volume I normally don't overdo it. My whole quest is to have an educated guess about low-level listening and though I know that it also depends on the amplification, in this case it will depend more on the speakers since I know that my amp is high current and theoretically would be up to the task. You say that they can, so maybe I can really go for the 40s.

I definitely think that the Naim pre/power wasn't a match made in heaven regarding more demanding types of music. The whole musical structure and imaging imploded and one could hear clearly that the lack of power or current was the reason. They might be fine for less power-hungry speakers, but I can only imagine that the 500 line would suit the ATCs I listened to... though I have no idea how the top line of Naim behaves and sounds like. I listened to Naim a few times and though I didn't have long periods of auditioning I was left with the impression of what the rave is about. Maybe I was just unlucky, but I listened to Naim electronics with Audio Physic (Tempo 25 and Scorpio), including the new DAC, and I must say that I was underwhelmed. Since I had listened to the Tempo 25 with AVM electronics previously I concluded that maybe the synergy hadn't been as fortunate. Well, anyway, I still am very, veeeeeery curious about listening to the top Naim CDP and pre/power.

I've heard wonderful things about the KEF Reference range, but unfortunately they're beyond my budget at the moment, but I'll keep your hint in mind.

best regards

Andr‚

 

[MUSICRAFT]

koolkeith:
Perhaps the dealers can clarify the position re. the new ATC tweeter, which if it were imminent, would make buying a new pair tomorrow a bit stupid. Which models will carry it & when will new models ship with it ? I have the 40's & the cheap ATC pre/power. The mantra one hears constantly on the forums is that the actives are light years ahead of the passives and one would be better buying a 5 year old pair of actives and sending them back to ATC for a service than pursuing new passives & amps. for approx. the same dosh. That's what I intend to do when I get fed up with the 40's. Also, I find they are a pain to get really loud cleanly though the fact my room is 25' long doesn't help.

Oh and what about the new atc CD/DAC/PRE/TOASTER is it close or should I just buy an Audiolab?

Hi koolkeith

Development work on ATC's own new 34mm HF unit for their SCM200/SCM300 monitors is now complete. ATC have now started work on the 25mm HF unit for the smaller models. Completion of this new design is some way off though.

Most of ATC's active monitors are significantly better their already superb passive monitors. Although the active monitors also need to be correctly driven by a suitable pre amp. I use SCM100ASL Professional monitors with the SCA2 pre amp and there really is no going back after this.

ATC's new cd player is essentially a two analogue input CA2 and also with two digital inputs (coaxial and fibre optic). The analogue stages will be discrete with true differentional outputs. The player should hopefully be ready before the end of the year.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[MUSICRAFT]

reverendo:
seems that there's text missing... hope you can complete what you were 'saying'

are you talking about the 100W or 200W Callisto, since it would make a significant difference

Hi Andre

I've now completed my original post.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft