Right! If you could only have one piece of uber high end gear in your rack and the rest had to be budget what would you pick to give the best sound sourceampspeakers?
My betting is the amp!
My betting is the amp!
Which is the most important piece of kit
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matengawhat
Well-known member
chebby
Well-known member
The source of course.
My source pick = Rega P9 + RB1000 + Apheta + P9 PSU + IOS (MC phono stage)
Budget everything else is fine. Rega do a nice budget amp and bookshelf speakers
My source pick = Rega P9 + RB1000 + Apheta + P9 PSU + IOS (MC phono stage)
Budget everything else is fine. Rega do a nice budget amp and bookshelf speakers
matengawhat
Well-known member
no one is ever going to agree on this!!! my theory is buy the best possible speakers you can then as you ugrade other kit it will just get better and better - now i am the stage where my speakers are now the weakest bit of my system after upgrading everything else and they are ma rs8s so don't really think you can call them weak
I thought speakers first but then after thinkin about it i recon a really serious amp could make half decent budget speakers sing
I think speakers can make the biggest difference, however I would say AMP.
If you say £200 for each budget component...
£1500 for expensive
£200 CD player, £1500 amp, £200 speakers
£1500 CD player, £200 amp, £200 speakers
£200 CD player, £200 amp, £1500 speakers
The last will sound worst IMO in most cases, as the speaker will highlight the shortcomings, often in a horrible way.
The CD player will be lost in the second.
However most speakers benefit from the best amplification...and the amplifier will not spoil the sound that comes from the CD!
(So I say AMP)
If you say £200 for each budget component...
£1500 for expensive
£200 CD player, £1500 amp, £200 speakers
£1500 CD player, £200 amp, £200 speakers
£200 CD player, £200 amp, £1500 speakers
The last will sound worst IMO in most cases, as the speaker will highlight the shortcomings, often in a horrible way.
The CD player will be lost in the second.
However most speakers benefit from the best amplification...and the amplifier will not spoil the sound that comes from the CD!
(So I say AMP)
matengawhat
Well-known member
but surely that works back the same way - if you have a £1500 amp and £200 speakers they will just annoy you with the flabby bass and over the top treble
matengawhat:but surely that works back the same way - if you have a £1500 amp and £200 speakers they will just annoy you with the flabby bass and over the top treble
Nope, so long as you pick a pair of good £200 standmounts rather than floorstanders. Even the Gale Gold monitors I use on my PC aren't how you describe.
In fact I would rather have those (cost £60), running off my amp (which cost £1300), rather than my Dali Ikon 6's (£900) running off a budget amp.
The digital source is not quite so important IMO, as the level of playback of a budget player these days is quite incredible.
Nope, so long as you pick a pair of good £200 standmounts rather than floorstanders. Even the Gale Gold monitors I use on my PC aren't how you describe.
In fact I would rather have those (cost £60), running off my amp (which cost £1300), rather than my Dali Ikon 6's (£900) running off a budget amp.
The digital source is not quite so important IMO, as the level of playback of a budget player these days is quite incredible.
rubbish in = rubbish out no matter how good your speakers are. great speakers with rubbish source will just highlight just how rubbish the source is (better to get more forgiving speakers in that scenario). If I had to choose one, I'd pick a H/end amp which would maximise CDP signal quality and feed the speakers with the best possible signal. (the true heart of the system IMHO).
Clearly it's the speakers.
It's true when you put any system together. The speakers should always get the most investment. (within reason - it's pointless having £5000 speakers with a £50 amp)
The amp only needs to do 2 things. It needs to provide enough power to drive the speakers and it has to remain free of distortion. That is to say it needs to faithfully amplify whatever the source is sending it. I've long held to the view that an amplifier can't actually add anything to the music and if it does add something that something is distortion.
So my view is based on the idea that if you have a sufficient amp and some spare money then spend the money on speakers. If you still have spare money spend it on upgrading the source.
It's true when you put any system together. The speakers should always get the most investment. (within reason - it's pointless having £5000 speakers with a £50 amp)
The amp only needs to do 2 things. It needs to provide enough power to drive the speakers and it has to remain free of distortion. That is to say it needs to faithfully amplify whatever the source is sending it. I've long held to the view that an amplifier can't actually add anything to the music and if it does add something that something is distortion.
So my view is based on the idea that if you have a sufficient amp and some spare money then spend the money on speakers. If you still have spare money spend it on upgrading the source.
Ivor didn't get it wrong when he came up with the logic behind the LP12; source first. GIGO everytime.
welshboy:
Clearly it's the speakers.
The amp only needs to do 2 things. It needs to provide enough power to drive the speakers and it has to remain free of distortion. That is to say it needs to faithfully amplify whatever the source is sending it.
Which is extremely hard to do especially when designing an amp on a budget. To find an amp which 'gets it wrong' the least is worth probably about 15 birds in a bush (or something like that ;-).
The level of transparency you get from a high end amp vs budget is quite something.......I don't believe a cdp or speakers could ever compensate or better that, in substition.....
Clearly it's the speakers.
The amp only needs to do 2 things. It needs to provide enough power to drive the speakers and it has to remain free of distortion. That is to say it needs to faithfully amplify whatever the source is sending it.
Which is extremely hard to do especially when designing an amp on a budget. To find an amp which 'gets it wrong' the least is worth probably about 15 birds in a bush (or something like that ;-).
The level of transparency you get from a high end amp vs budget is quite something.......I don't believe a cdp or speakers could ever compensate or better that, in substition.....
the record spot:Ivor didn't get it wrong when he came up with the logic behind the LP12; source first. GIGO everytime.
...and if we were talking vinyl, maybe. But you can get a damn fine CD player for budget money.
...and if we were talking vinyl, maybe. But you can get a damn fine CD player for budget money.
Its a bit difficult as hi fi is only is good as your limiting factor - so you have to find the limiting factor that has the most effect on your system. Id personally say get the best speakers you can but id make sure that the cd and amp were up to the task even if they are not as good as the speakers. Its better to change the budget to a more even ratio (id still spend more on speakers).
Speakers.
As fr0g said, you can get a good CDP or digital source for very little cost. Amps cost more to get a respectable sound but the general cost to get a good speaker I believe is the highest. Decent cabinets, drive units and crossovers are more expensive to get right and produce.
My Spendor SA1s on a four year old Rotel RA03 with the TV sounds superb; a lot nicer than my old MA RS1s in the same set up. What Hifi even commented on how accomplished the Spendors sounded with my amps's little brother, the RA04.
As fr0g said, you can get a good CDP or digital source for very little cost. Amps cost more to get a respectable sound but the general cost to get a good speaker I believe is the highest. Decent cabinets, drive units and crossovers are more expensive to get right and produce.
My Spendor SA1s on a four year old Rotel RA03 with the TV sounds superb; a lot nicer than my old MA RS1s in the same set up. What Hifi even commented on how accomplished the Spendors sounded with my amps's little brother, the RA04.
As a telco person I'd always go from signal to output so it would have to be the CD player. You'll never get a good sound output, out of *** signal. No matter how much you spend on speakers.
Very possibly all you'll hear is how bad your source is. With high quality source you'll never hear how good it can be with rubbish speakers.
Amplifiers are always difficult - IME budget amps can be extremely good while expensive amps can be very disappointing.
Generally I'd be inclined to concentrate on source and output.
BALANCE is best! The budgeting bias shouldn't be too excessive and ultimately flexible.
Very possibly all you'll hear is how bad your source is. With high quality source you'll never hear how good it can be with rubbish speakers.
Amplifiers are always difficult - IME budget amps can be extremely good while expensive amps can be very disappointing.
Generally I'd be inclined to concentrate on source and output.
BALANCE is best! The budgeting bias shouldn't be too excessive and ultimately flexible.
laugh:
As a telco person I'd always go from signal to output so it would have to be the uber CD player.
Think it's foolish idea though. Balanced is best.
Of course balanced is best. Im just intersted in people opinions on the matter
As a telco person I'd always go from signal to output so it would have to be the uber CD player.
Think it's foolish idea though. Balanced is best.
Of course balanced is best. Im just intersted in people opinions on the matter
garethwd:laugh:
As a telco person I'd always go from signal to output so it would have to be the uber CD player.
Think it's foolish idea though. Balanced is best.
Of course balanced is best. Im just intersted in people opinions on the matter
Weird thought I'd deleted that post as I thought it was a bit abrupt / rude.
Apologies.
As a telco person I'd always go from signal to output so it would have to be the uber CD player.
Think it's foolish idea though. Balanced is best.
Of course balanced is best. Im just intersted in people opinions on the matter
Weird thought I'd deleted that post as I thought it was a bit abrupt / rude.
Apologies.
fr0g:the record spot:Ivor didn't get it wrong when he came up with the logic behind the LP12; source first. GIGO everytime.
...and if we were talking vinyl, maybe. But you can get a damn fine CD player for budget money.
Yep agreed, but my point really was the source is the critical element IMO.
Put the best speakers or amp on by all means, but if that £600 Saxon cd player that landed a 1 star review in WHF a year back is spinning the discs, it's not going to make a whole lot of difference at the other end.
Put on an Eastern Electric Minimax, Roksan Caspian, or moving further up the line to the Wadia range, Acoustic Research etc, etc, then you have a different proposition entirely, even if it's being driven by a budget amp and output using budget speakers. The limitations of the CD6002 (to take one example) will only be highlighted by the underlying qualities of source components such as those.
True, a budget amp and speakers will also only be shown up by such high end gear, but the same applies in reverse that top speakers will only ever achieve a fraction of what they can do with budget source and amplification.
If the mag would like to send me a Wadia or Acoustic Research player for test in my living room with my gear however, please contact me at my usual email address...! I'll keep the babies well away from them.
...and if we were talking vinyl, maybe. But you can get a damn fine CD player for budget money.
Yep agreed, but my point really was the source is the critical element IMO.
Put the best speakers or amp on by all means, but if that £600 Saxon cd player that landed a 1 star review in WHF a year back is spinning the discs, it's not going to make a whole lot of difference at the other end.
Put on an Eastern Electric Minimax, Roksan Caspian, or moving further up the line to the Wadia range, Acoustic Research etc, etc, then you have a different proposition entirely, even if it's being driven by a budget amp and output using budget speakers. The limitations of the CD6002 (to take one example) will only be highlighted by the underlying qualities of source components such as those.
True, a budget amp and speakers will also only be shown up by such high end gear, but the same applies in reverse that top speakers will only ever achieve a fraction of what they can do with budget source and amplification.
If the mag would like to send me a Wadia or Acoustic Research player for test in my living room with my gear however, please contact me at my usual email address...! I'll keep the babies well away from them.
the record spot:fr0g:the record spot:Ivor didn't get it wrong when he came up with the logic behind the LP12; source first. GIGO everytime.
...and if we were talking vinyl, maybe. But you can get a damn fine CD player for budget money.
Yep agreed, but my point really was the source is the critical element IMO.
Put the best speakers or amp on by all means, but if that £600 Saxon cd player that landed a 1 star review in WHF a year back is spinning the discs, it's not going to make a whole lot of difference at the other end.
Put on an Eastern Electric Minimax, Roksan Caspian, or moving further up the line to the Wadia range, Acoustic Research etc, etc, then you have a different proposition entirely, even if it's being driven by a budget amp and output using budget speakers. The limitations of the CD6002 (to take one example) will only be highlighted by the underlying qualities of source components such as those.
True, a budget amp and speakers will also only be shown up by such high end gear, but the same applies in reverse that top speakers will only ever achieve a fraction of what they can do with budget source and amplification.
If the mag would like to send me a Wadia or Acoustic Research player for test in my living room with my gear however, please contact me at my usual email address...! I'll keep the babies well away from them.
Strangely enough I have seen a 3rd party review of that Saxon CD player, from a forumee that couldn't believe it was so bad... He actually qiite liked it.
...and if we were talking vinyl, maybe. But you can get a damn fine CD player for budget money.
Yep agreed, but my point really was the source is the critical element IMO.
Put the best speakers or amp on by all means, but if that £600 Saxon cd player that landed a 1 star review in WHF a year back is spinning the discs, it's not going to make a whole lot of difference at the other end.
Put on an Eastern Electric Minimax, Roksan Caspian, or moving further up the line to the Wadia range, Acoustic Research etc, etc, then you have a different proposition entirely, even if it's being driven by a budget amp and output using budget speakers. The limitations of the CD6002 (to take one example) will only be highlighted by the underlying qualities of source components such as those.
True, a budget amp and speakers will also only be shown up by such high end gear, but the same applies in reverse that top speakers will only ever achieve a fraction of what they can do with budget source and amplification.
If the mag would like to send me a Wadia or Acoustic Research player for test in my living room with my gear however, please contact me at my usual email address...! I'll keep the babies well away from them.
Strangely enough I have seen a 3rd party review of that Saxon CD player, from a forumee that couldn't believe it was so bad... He actually qiite liked it.
Yes, another mag gave it a good review aroundabouts the same time. Horses for courses in the end!
It did surprise me to read the WHF review though; don't think I've seen such a scathing review for long enough in the mag. Not many 1 star items either these days.
It did surprise me to read the WHF review though; don't think I've seen such a scathing review for long enough in the mag. Not many 1 star items either these days.
garethwd:Right! If you could only have one piece of uber high end gear in your rack and the rest had to be budget what would you pick to give the best sound sourceampspeakers?
My betting is the amp!
(Thinking outside the box here) the ears. If they fail or don't work up to standards all else is useless.
My betting is the amp!
(Thinking outside the box here) the ears. If they fail or don't work up to standards all else is useless.
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