Which DAC?

[SteveR750]

AL13N:SteveR750:OK have got it to work, but what an abortion. I have to set the optical driver as the default (effectively switching off the inbuilt speakers, so the optical connection does not auto mute / connect in the 'phones do.
I have the same problem connecting the laptop via HDMI - need to manually switch the "default output" each time, and then back again when using the laptop on its own.

If only there was a solution out there...

Whereas when I connect using HDMI it just autoplays like it were from the apple store!

OK next question - Ma trying out WMP as the programme to play music with, what is the if any difference between EAC, WMP Lossless, WMP ripping.wav files, and say itunes lossless.

I am ripping as a WAV file so that I can import it to any programme in the future....first CD nearly done so lets see if its as good as the Cyrus....

 

[AL13N]

SteveR750:OK next question - Ma trying out WMP as the programme to play music with, what is the if any difference between EAC, WMP Lossless, WMP ripping.wav files, and say itunes lossless.
According to the theory of 1s + 0s... none.

SteveR750:I am ripping as a WAV file so that I can import it to any programme in the future....first CD nearly done so lets see if its as good as the Cyrus....
Look forward to hearing your thoughts on this. Personally, I can't hear a difference, but listening via laptop I can sit through an album, whereas via CDP I can listen to a few albums back-to-back.
Haven't a clue why.

 

[SteveR750]

AL13N:
SteveR750:I am ripping as a WAV file so that I can import it to any programme in the future....first CD nearly done so lets see if its as good as the Cyrus....
Look forward to hearing your thoughts on this. Personally, I can't hear a difference, but listening via laptop I can sit through an album, whereas via CDP I can listen to a few albums back-to-back.
Haven't a clue why.

To answer last Q first - maybe because of the need to actually change and select a CD. If its all there on shuffle, well its a click away. Worse still if you are streaming from Spotify ( as I am listening to a selection of about 25 classic hymns from Welsh male voice choirs, rather than doing a comparison with the Cyrus. Speaking of which, it sound pretty good, maybe a tad harsher at the top end, that understandably disappears with lower bit rate MP3 tracks.

I already like the instant all in one box - surfing, controlling music, managing the whole thing without constant interuption. Bizarrely, the Left/Right imbalance that I have suffered for years has vanished. Oh yes, this is the way forward. Yes indeed.

 

[DavieCee]

SteveR750:

....first CD nearly done so lets see if its as good as the Cyrus....

You sold the CDP before doing the comparison!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Way braver than me but I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

 

[SteveR750]

DavieCee:SteveR750:
....first CD nearly done so lets see if its as good as the Cyrus....

You sold the CDP before doing the comparison!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Way braver than me but I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

Well, I figured its not that big a risk..:

- Transport of Cyrus can only be as good as PC, probably worse.

- DAC in Cyrus is probably no better than the Magic, and even if it is, I'll wager that the better file reading accuracy from the PC offsets any advantages that the Cyrus DAC has. From the limited listening so far, I am pleased. The Sony even has a built in audio / DVD control panel so you dont even need to browse back to WMP / Spotify etc to skip, pause or stop.

The only disdvantage so far is 5m of optical cable draped across my lounge, but I live alone and I'm a bloke so these things are not that important..

 

[AL13N]

SteveR750:To answer last Q first - maybe because of the need to actually change and select a CD. If its all there on shuffle, well its a click away. Worse still if you are streaming from Spotify
Yes, I get what you're saying. But I'm more of an 'Album' person - I just like to put on an album (whether FLAC or CD), press play, and sit back and enjoy. I barely use the remote control.

 

[SteveR750]

I'm a shuffle person 90% of the time, but sometimes a whole album, like a pizza should be consumed at one sitting.

 

[AL13N]

SteveR750:I'm a shuffle person 90% of the time, but sometimes a whole album, like a pizza should be consumed at one sitting.
Mmmm... Pizza

Let us know how you get on with the CDP vs .WAV comparison once the Welsh voices have subsided.

 

[pwiles1968]

SteveR750:
The next thing I want to do is to go wireless between the PC and the DAC. How and what do I need to to do this? Bearing in mind the rest of the system that I am using.

I have done this with an Apple Airport Express and Recently the old Apple TV, I use my AV amp as a DAC (Sounds Better than the DAC in my CD6000ki) I have been listening to way more music since I went to this solution and have only put a CD on to do a back to back.

If you Run iTunes this might be an option and the Genius and Genius mixes are great for randomising music, but does limit your format options to apple losless, Alternatively airfoil and Airport express, About £55 if you pick up a reconditioned AE from Apple, you should be able to stream any of your sources from the laptop/PC though I have not tried this myself.

 

[Anonymous]

spaced123:I am thinking of using an rDac connected to an iMac. The iMac has a mini jack optical digital output and thinking this is a better bet than the USB if connected to the Coaxial SPDIF. I have read that the Coaxial SPDIF has higher supported sample rates i.e. up to 192KHZ, so my assumption would be to connect to that input and not the USB or Optical which support lower KhZ? Presumably this will mean also using a Digital SPDIF RCA Coax to Optical (TOSlink) Audio Converter?

Optical and coax are both S/PDIF, with the possibility of transfering 24 bits/192 kHz signals.

The receiver chips in the DAC might have limitations though. Unfortunately the ARCAM rDAC only accept 48 kHz through it's TOSlink (optical) input, while most (if not all other) modern DACs accepts at least 96 kHz - so if you want to use an optical connection, the rDAC are certainly not your best choice.

Optical will always be the best choice when using a computer. The optical cable effectively eliminates the electrical noise problems that often follows from connecting a computer to a music system with a metal cable (like coax pr USB).

USB usually supports a maximum og 16bits/48kHz. A few expensive DACs and most USB sound cards supports 24bits/96kHz - but only when using a more advanced driver than the one included in the OS.

 

[SteveR750]

Fahnsen:
spaced123:I am thinking of using an rDac connected to an iMac. The iMac has a mini jack optical digital output and thinking this is a better bet than the USB if connected to the Coaxial SPDIF. I have read that the Coaxial SPDIF has higher supported sample rates i.e. up to 192KHZ, so my assumption would be to connect to that input and not the USB or Optical which support lower KhZ? Presumably this will mean also using a Digital SPDIF RCA Coax to Optical (TOSlink) Audio Converter?

Optical and coax are both S/PDIF, with the possibility of transfering 24 bits/192 kHz signals.

The receiver chips in the DAC might have limitations though. Unfortunately the ARCAM rDAC only accept 48 kHz through it's TOSlink (optical) input, while most (if not all other) modern DACs accepts at least 96 kHz - so if you want to use an optical connection, the rDAC are certainly not your best choice.

Optical will always be the best choice when using a computer. The optical cable effectively eliminates the electrical noise problems that often follows from connecting a computer to a music system with a metal cable (like coax pr USB).

USB usually supports a maximum og 16bits/48kHz. A few expensive DACs and most USB sound cards supports 24bits/96kHz - but only when using a more advanced driver than the one included in the OS.

That's not what these people think:

http://www.ayre.com/pdf/Ayre_USB_DAC_White_Paper.pdf

Sounds similar to the approach taken by Arcam's rDAC??

From what I have read, s/pdif is inherently jittery, and far from ideal, just better than a conventional USB. In my limited understanding neither is as potentially accurate as using a networked system, NAS -> Streamer (squeezebox, unpn etc) as the data is processed as packets into the DAC and is much less susceptible to jitter errors, as I presume the DAC is the source clock, and is therefore not having to synchronise to the source data clock (as its not being streamed)....I think....clearly I am no expert, but it's fascinating all the same. This digital stuff is just as tweakable as vinyl!

 

[Gerrardasnails]

SteveR750:Fahnsen:
spaced123:I am thinking of using an rDac connected to an iMac. The iMac has a mini jack optical digital output and thinking this is a better bet than the USB if connected to the Coaxial SPDIF. I have read that the Coaxial SPDIF has higher supported sample rates i.e. up to 192KHZ, so my assumption would be to connect to that input and not the USB or Optical which support lower KhZ? Presumably this will mean also using a Digital SPDIF RCA Coax to Optical (TOSlink) Audio Converter?

Optical and coax are both S/PDIF, with the possibility of transfering 24 bits/192 kHz signals.

The receiver chips in the DAC might have limitations though. Unfortunately the ARCAM rDAC only accept 48 kHz through it's TOSlink (optical) input, while most (if not all other) modern DACs accepts at least 96 kHz - so if you want to use an optical connection, the rDAC are certainly not your best choice.

Optical will always be the best choice when using a computer. The optical cable effectively eliminates the electrical noise problems that often follows from connecting a computer to a music system with a metal cable (like coax pr USB).

USB usually supports a maximum og 16bits/48kHz. A few expensive DACs and most USB sound cards supports 24bits/96kHz - but only when using a more advanced driver than the one included in the OS.

That's not what these people think:

http://www.ayre.com/pdf/Ayre_USB_DAC_White_Paper.pdf

Sounds similar to the approach taken by Arcam's rDAC??

From what I have read, s/pdif is inherently jittery, and far from ideal, just better than a conventional USB. In my limited understanding neither is as potentially accurate as using a networked system, NAS -> Streamer (squeezebox, unpn etc) as the data is processed as packets into the DAC and is much less susceptible to jitter errors, as I presume the DAC is the source clock, and is therefore not having to synchronise to the source data clock (as its not being streamed)....I think....clearly I am no expert, but it's fascinating all the same. This digital stuff is just as tweakable as vinyl!

So Steve, are you happy with the no need for a cd player approach??

As for digital cables; I think, in this instance, digital cable sceptics close your eyes, a better digital cable reaps rewards. I use Atlas Opus which is very good.

 

[SteveR750]

Gerrardasnails:

So Steve, are you happy with the no need for a cd player approach?? As for digital cables; I think, in this instance, digital cable sceptics close your eyes, a better digital cable reaps rewards. I use Atlas Opus which is very good.

You betcha! It would have to be something special to convince me to go back now. One of the IT guys at work explained the whole wireless thing to me, so the next move is to eliminate the PC and the optical cabling and go for a NAS / streamer / DAC set up. I like the idea of something from Linn, but hey £s time.

One big benefit of using the PC approach is I am listening to tracks I never normally would do when using shuffle. I am astounded by the sheer amount of detail that's present, and the clarity of the treble is astonishing compared to all of my CDP experience, it has that wonderful metallic sheen to crash cymbals when tapped gently, even when smashed hard there is no harshness. I have also realised how much sibilance there was previously. Dare I say it, but it sounds so much more *organic*, almost (whisper it) like vinyl really...

 

[Gerrardasnails]

SteveR750:Gerrardasnails:

So Steve, are you happy with the no need for a cd player approach?? As for digital cables; I think, in this instance, digital cable sceptics close your eyes, a better digital cable reaps rewards. I use Atlas Opus which is very good.

You betcha! It would have to be something special to convince me to go back now. One of the IT guys at work explained the whole wireless thing to me, so the next move is to eliminate the PC and the optical cabling and go for a NAS / streamer / DAC set up. I like the idea of something from Linn, but hey £s time.

One big benefit of using the PC approach is I am listening to tracks I never normally would do when using shuffle. I am astounded by the sheer amount of detail that's present, and the clarity of the treble is astonishing compared to all of my CDP experience, it has that wonderful metallic sheen to crash cymbals when tapped gently, even when smashed hard there is no harshness. I have also realised how much sibilance there was previously. Dare I say it, but it sounds so much more *organic*, almost (whisper it) like vinyl really...

I've harped on for a while (too much probably) about what a £200 DAC can do with lossless files - imagine what a better one will do? I'm going to get a Moon DAC at some point to find out.

As for wireless and the PC route, I agree that taking the PC out of the equation is beneficial. However, I've tried wireless with my Popcorn Hour and wired and it makes no difference.

 

[SteveR750]

The problem is that s/pdif is not ideal. Using an ethernet source to feed a DAC reduces jitter significantly apparently, so would be interesting to hear what people have found when migrating from a well set up PC system (J River, itunes on Mac etc) to a networked system.

Interestingly I have read that J River's ripping is as effective as EAC so long as you check verify rip. iTunes uses error correction, which you really dont want to use unless the disc wont read (I have found one track on a pristine looking disc that it tried its 16 attempts to read a sector, which I reloaded 3 times. I gave up and don't have the song, no big deal, but could have used WMP lossless which seems to plow though anything...

 

[SteveR750]

@ Gerrard (or any other J River MC15 users)

Have you tried playing tracks from memory, rather than off the HD? Meanwhile I'm off to find a higher spec, better sounding / shorter toslink cable....!

 

[eternaloptimist]

SteveR750:
@ Gerrard (or any other J River MC15 users)

Have you tried playing tracks from memory, rather than off the HD? Meanwhile I'm off to find a higher spec, better sounding / shorter toslink cable....!

Hi Steve,

I stream FLAC files via J River 15 using WASAPI-Event style into my (new as of last week!) Wyred-4-Sound DAC-2 via USB then into the Cyrus PreXPD etc (see sig). The USB is asynchronous and accepts 24/192 - as a result you have to install proprietary drivers (no problem, worked first time). I cannot hear any discernible difference playing tracks from memory rather than off the HD (or with the hybrid option).

There have been a number of less than accurate comments in this thread....

SPDIF - consensus is that generally coax preferred over optical for bit rates especially over 16/44. Optical often not stable above 24/96. But.. for CD transport out should be fine as is at lower bit rates.

USB. Depends on a huge number of factors. Early implementations were poor, newer developments mean that USB done well is excellent as an input. Technology has moved on in the last 5 years....

Worth spending a bit of time at computeraudiophile.com...

Incidentally, thhe Wyred-4-Sound DAC-2 is a superb sounding DAC!!

 

[SteveR750]

eternaloptimist:SteveR750:
@ Gerrard (or any other J River MC15 users)

Have you tried playing tracks from memory, rather than off the HD? Meanwhile I'm off to find a higher spec, better sounding / shorter toslink cable....!

Hi Steve,

I stream FLAC files via J River 15 using WASAPI-Event style into my (new as of last week!) Wyred-4-Sound DAC-2 via USB then into the Cyrus PreXPD etc (see sig). The USB is asynchronous and accepts 24/192 - as a result you have to install proprietary drivers (no problem, worked first time). I cannot hear any discernible difference playing tracks from memory rather than off the HD (or with the hybrid option).

There have been a number of less than accurate comments in this thread....

SPDIF - consensus is that generally coax preferred over optical for bit rates especially over 16/44. Optical often not stable above 24/96. But.. for CD transport out should be fine as is at lower bit rates.

USB. Depends on a huge number of factors. Early implementations were poor, newer developments mean that USB done well is excellent as an input. Technology has moved on in the last 5 years....

Worth spending a bit of time at computeraudiophile.com...

Incidentally, thhe Wyred-4-Sound DAC-2 is a superb sounding DAC!!

Yep, agreed - the main thing that I hadn't realised until a few days ago was the s/pdif is not the last word in data transmission, and that USB potentially can be better if designed correctly. I also realise that one optical cable will not necessarily sound the same as another due to jitter errors during transmission.