WHF team: Sony DA2400ES & Denon AVR1909 7channel power output

[admin_exported]

Hello all,

I have a question about the Sony DA2400ES and the Denon AVR1909.

My question arose when I red the specs of the two amps and I saw pictures of the backsides of the amp.

The Denon AVR 1909 Specs say that it is 90 W per channel. So this means that it can deliver 7 x 90 W. On the backside of the amp where the power cable enters the amp it states that it will consume 445 W at most.

For the Sony DA2400ES the Specs say its 110W per channel. Meaning 7 x 110W. This backside info says Powerconsumtion 360 W.

So when I add things up: 7 x 90 W = 630 W versus 445 W of the backside for the Denon.

And for the Sony: 7 x 110 W = 770 W versus 360 W of the backside.

How I look at this is that the amps can not deliver what the specs say that can. This can be due to the fact that they saved some money on the power supplies of the amps. The Sony more then the Denon.

Bare with me a moment as I will post my Question.

So what they can deliver, if i was to ask an equal amount of power from the channels, is the following:

Denon > 445 W / 7 = ± 63 W per channel and for the Sony > 360 W / 7 = ± 51 W per channel.

Maybe I seeing this wrong, and maybe it´s not as simple as I calculate the things, but you can´t get more power from them than you give ´em right.

Finally my question:

Does someone know if the amps have enough power reserves to deliver in the most demanding movie scenes at an decent volume level?

A little insight from you guys (and girls) and maybe the WHF team, would be appreciated

 

[Anonymous]

I don't think that you can compare power consumption and volume, they both might be in Watts are different.

On the Denon for example, the 90W per channel is at 8ohm impedance, if the speakers are 6ohm, the Denon is capable of about 110W per channel (if I remember correctly).

It's similar to the confusion caused in the cheaper HI-FI sets where they quote in Watts in POPO (peak music power output - before the speakers basically explode) while the watts on the proper kits are in RMS (root mean squared).

I'm sure that one of the guys with a more electronic background can provide you with a more technical explaination

 

[Gerrardasnails]

KuDo:
Hello all,

I have a question about the Sony DA2400ES and the Denon AVR1909.

My question arose when I red the specs of the two amps and I saw pictures of the backsides of the amp.

The Denon AVR 1909 Specs say that it is 90 W per channel. So this means that it can deliver 7 x 90 W. On the backside of the amp where the power cable enters the amp it states that it will consume 445 W at most.

For the Sony DA2400ES the Specs say its 110W per channel. Meaning 7 x 110W. This backside info says Powerconsumtion 360 W.

So when I add things up: 7 x 90 W = 630 W versus 445 W of the backside for the Denon.

And for the Sony: 7 x 110 W = 770 W versus 360 W of the backside.

How I look at this is that the amps can not deliver what the specs say that can. This can be due to the fact that they saved some money on the power supplies of the amps. The Sony more then the Denon.

Bare with me a moment as I will post my Question.

So what they can deliver, if i was to ask an equal amount of power from the channels, is the following:

Denon > 445 W / 7 = ñ 63 W per channel and for the Sony > 360 W / 7 = ñ 51 W per channel.

Maybe I seeing this wrong, and maybe itïs not as simple as I calculate the things, but you canït get more power from them than you give ïem right.

Finally my question:

Does someone know if the amps have enough power reserves to deliver in the most demanding movie scenes at an decent volume level?

A little insight from you guys (and girls) and maybe the WHF team, would be appreciated

You are reading too much! The power stated on the back is the maximum consumption the unit will expend whilst in operation - and how much you are adding to the carbon footprint. The watts per channel is how loud the speakers will go!

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks guys for the quick replies,

Having red your replies I Still have some questions.

I donït think the Power consumtion figures and the RMS watts per channel rating is standing so far from eachother. If you take for example that the PMA-SA1 from Denon is a stereo amp, that has a power consumtion figure of 230 W at the back and is capable of driving speakers at 100 W RMS at 4ohm. So my simple theory of adding those figures 2 x 100 = 200 W makes sens to me. That must be an amp that can actualy deliver what it states.

And if you take the Marantz SR8002, the spec will say that it has the power to torture speakers with 125 W at 8Ohms and the power consumtion figure says it then takes 800 W. Thatïs also almost one on one, 875 to 800.

I think that a lot of AV Receivers are designed to do their power output as they claim but just not all 7 channels at once. I also know that putting out this much power is allmost never the case. Plus that 7 channel movie sequences hardly ever demand 7 channels running at fullspeed at the same time for minutes.

My point is that it is not too bad that the amps canït really deliver their power ratings, but is the power in case of the 1909 en the 2400ES enough to not harm the signal at a decent sound level?

 

[Anonymous]

Whew - you have opened up a can of worms here which the industry is not very fond of talking about!

Most manufacturers of decent stereo equipment can generally agree on a maximum power output specification, usually quoted as continuous watts per channel into a given impedance load (usually 8 ohms, sometimes 4), both channels driven with a 1 kHz sine wave. This gives some basis for how loud the amplifier will play before unpleasant distortion (clipping) sets in, though there will still be some variation between models depending on the capacity of the power supply and the maximum current the amplifier can deliver into low impedance and/or reactive loads. With "difficult" speakers, e.g. those whose impedance dips very low at frequencies where there is a lot of musical power, say in the region 80 - 300 Hz, amplifiers built to a budget can then get into some trouble when attempting to play loud, whereas cost no object units with massive heat sinks and power supplies will generally behave much better under these conditions. So you could say that to some extent you get what you pay for and also that when the going gets tough weight counts, because it tends to indicate larger power transformers (which are very expensive) and more massive heatsinks, which help prevent the amplifier from overheating when driven hard for long periods.

Furthermore since most audio power amplifiers are linear class B designs their real-life efficiency at full power output is no more than about 70%, and by the time power supply losses have been added 60% would be a more realistic figure. So if the amplifier can deliver 2 x 100 Watts into 8 ohms at clipping then its power consumption is likely to be about 330W. Of course on programme material, the average power output is much less (even though the amp might hit 100W on musical peaks) - typically 10 -15 Watts per channel under these conditions. At such power outputs the amplifier is also much less efficient (20% would be a good figure) so a power meter at the mains socket would read around 100W under these conditions, most of the excess surplus power being dissipated as heat in the amplifier's output stages.

The same thing applies in multichannel AV amplifiers but now budgets are under much greater pressure with not much money being available for the power amplifiers and power supplies comapared with a pure stereo unit of the same price - there's all that audio DSP, video processing etc to pay for and it's not cheap. So some corners have to be cut and specifications are frequently er.... massaged by the marketing departments of the companies concerned. You will have observed that quoted power outputs seem to be greater than equivalently priced stereo amplifiers and yet there are 3.5 times as many channels - how can this be?

Well the answer is that there is no such thing as a free lunch! So in real terms you will rarely get the output power you expect and certainly not for a long time before something overheats and the protection system cuts in.

It is not for me to comment on specific models from manufacturers other than Arcam, but when Arcam quotes a spec for an AV amplifier's power output with all channels driven it will be true and the power taken from the mains under that condition will be commensurately high! Some of the other specialist manufacturers also do this (NAD, Cambridge, Rotel and Harman come immediately to mind and there are others) - just about all of the large Far Eastern brands do not quote such specs. You can certainly also argue that quoting all channels driven continuous power output is overkill but the fact of the matter is that there is little common ground here between vendors, as they know the average customer thinks the bigger the number the better, and they want the freedom to quote the biggest number they can without actually lying.

I could go on but I won't though I know I haven't answered your question in the way you might like. I suggest the only answer is to (a) read the fine print of the spec, if there is any, and (b) go and compare the amplifiers of your choice in indentical conditions (which is much easier said than done).

John Dawson (Arcam)

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you John Dawson for your interesting reply,

It really helped me that I now know that my idea wasnït completely rubbish. So in a lot of designs as long as they are class AB you need a serious powersuply to answer the demands of such high power ratings. So you can say that, assuming the amps I am talking about are class AB, the Consumed power label on the back side does say something about the real nature of the amps power abilities.

I just red a review somewhere in a German magazine that the Sony DA2400ES had been fed a sinus signal of 1kHz to all the 7 channels, and measured only 13,6 Volts at a load of 8ohm. So calculated to watts that would mean the following. 13,6 Volts / 8ohm gives a current of 1,7 Ampere. 13.6 Volts x 1,7 Ampere gives a power rating of 23 W per channel. Thatïs not a lot for an Amp that claims to be 110 W.

This is why I really like to know how the sound of the Denon and especially the Sony are at a reasonable volume. I really like to buy a Denon or a Sony, but at this time I havenït got the possibility to test the Sony here in the Netherlands.

So has someone got any idea if the power performance of the amps are affected by the somewhat light powersuplies?

 

[Gerrardasnails]

KuDo:
Thank you John Dawson for your interesting reply,

It really helped me that I now know that my idea wasnït completely rubbish. So in a lot of designs as long as they are class AB you need a serious powersuply to answer the demands of such high power ratings. So you can say that, assuming the amps I am talking about are class AB, the Consumed power label on the back side does say something about the real nature of the amps power abilities.

I just red a review somewhere in a German magazine that the Sony DA2400ES had been fed a sinus signal of 1kHz to all the 7 channels, and measured only 13,6 Volts at a load of 8ohm. So calculated to watts that would mean the following. 13,6 Volts / 8ohm gives a current of 1,7 Ampere. 13.6 Volts x 1,7 Ampere gives a power rating of 23 W per channel. Thatïs not a lot for an Amp that claims to be 110 W.

This is why I really like to know how the sound of the Denon and especially the Sony are at a reasonable volume. I really like to buy a Denon or a Sony, but at this time I havenït got the possibility to test the Sony here in the Netherlands.

So has someone got any idea if the power performance of the amps are affected by the somewhat light powersuplies?

I've got the 3400es and it goes loud. I played with it yesterday using Ratatouille (the scene where the old lady shoots at them and it's raining) and I got to -12db before everyone in the house screamed that it was deafening. Normal tv duty is -25db.

 

[Anonymous]

Gerrardasnails good to hear that you are expiriencing some good solid sounds from your 3400ES. Canït wait to experiance the same things for myself. So youïve got the feeling the 2400ESï brother has got power to spare?

Hope the 2400 comes to the shops here soon.

Another interresting amp for me would be the Marrantz SR5003 the only question about that amp is can it output its OSD via HDMI rather then the older standards.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

KuDo:

Gerrardasnails good to hear that you are expiriencing some good solid sounds from your 3400ES. Canït wait to experiance the same things for myself. So youïve got the feeling the 2400ESï brother has got power to spare?

Hope the 2400 comes to the shops here soon.

Another interresting amp for me would be the Marrantz SR5003 the only question about that amp is can it output its OSD via HDMI rather then the older standards.

The 2400 received a great review on here and it has the same "supposed" wpc as my receiver. When I calibrated my speakers they all came out at no more than -12db each so I could turn each one up as well. It is seriously loud. My room is not big (17ft x 12ft) but it's not dingey.

I've no idea about the Marantz but I would be surprised if the 2400 didn't do it for you.