WHF review , lack of transparency? Aye

[Overdose]

No it's not. 46% of adults in the United States believe that the world is less than 10,000 years old.

Population of the world is around 7 Billion, 46% of the population of the US is around 143 million, that's around 2% of the worlds population and hardly constitutes anything near a significant minority.

I take your point though and it could just as easily be only this 2% that believes the speaker theory that we are discussing, rather than the other way around.

 

[SpursGator]

No it's not. 46% of adults in the United States believe that the world is less than 10,000 years old.

I think a truer statement is, '46% of adults in the US, when someone doing a survey asks them, point-blank, some form of the question, "Do you think the Bible is true?" says some form of "Yes." '

Ask the question differently and you get very different answers. The number of Americans who really, fully, acutally believe that the Earth is really, truly less than 10,000 years old is much smaller.

I happen to be a Spurs supporter. If some stranger with a northern accent calls me out of the blue and says, 'Is Gareth Bale a diver or not?' My answer is going to be, 'No.' Ask me a more nuanced version of the question and you might get a more nuanced answer.

A lot about human perception is nuanced, even if the world around us behaves predictably.

 

[Singslinger]

I'm not sure if this makes sense but although I'm not able to properly describe what 'transparency' is in a hifi context, I know it when I hear it. And the one thing I've found is that for me, greater transparency doesn't necessarily equate to more enjoyable listening.

An example - one of the most transparent systems I've ever heard is a full FM Acoustic setup. Massively expensive; crystal clear sound with hardly any coloration but too sterile or clinical for my liking. Similarly, Soulutions electronics paired with Magico speakers - jaw-dropping transparency but a bit bland.

At a fraction of the price though, a tube Macintosh preamp/solid state Mac power amps driving Emerald Physics speakers - sonic heaven! A warm, inviting but colored sound no doubt, but more enjoyable to me.

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm not sure if this makes sense but although I'm not able to properly describe what 'transparency' is in a hifi context, I know it when I hear it. And the one thing I've found is that for me, greater transparency doesn't necessarily equate to more enjoyable listening. An example - one of the most transparent systems I've ever heard is a full FM Acoustic setup. Massively expensive; crystal clear sound with hardly any coloration but too sterile or clinical for my liking. Similarly, Soulutions electronics paired with Magico speakers - jaw-dropping transparency but a bit bland. At a fraction of the price though, a tube Macintosh preamp/solid state Mac power amps driving Emerald Physics speakers - sonic heaven! A warm, inviting but colored sound no doubt, but more enjoyable to me.

I agree.

I think it poses the question of whether a system needs to be analytical to be transparent.

Also, what exactly is the relationship between Neutrality, Transparancy, Accuracy and Detail.

 

[Sliced Bread]

Nah, CNO, swapped the Naim for an Electrocompaniet, Class A jobby, then sold that for the Pioneer. Really not much difference if any. Had Musical Fidelity before, in Oz, don't rate them.

In the end, it's the speakers that make the difference, amps just peripheral. Whoops, off now, b**ger.

It's really interesting that different people have different experiences.

I've always found a huge difference between amps. One of exampe is the Electrocompaniet amps vs Audiolab. The differnence was huge. Audiolab being death by detail and Electrocompaniet being detailed, but smooth warmish and gorgeous. Just as I like it :rockout:

 

[Sliced Bread]

Yeah, but which ones have you heard doing all this? Same with timing. does an amp really have influence on this? In fact, does any component? Can we name and shame?

I've always thought PRaT was a joke on the back of the acronym. I've never yet heard an amp, or source, affect "timing". What timing is going to go exactly? Will the drum beats be out of sync? Will the guitar be a beat behind? Will the conductor suddenly lose the orchestra? Nope...never anything like that yet.

Indeed I think the whole "timing" thing is nonsense. Timing of individual instruments on a recording cannot be affected.

An amp that can't properly control the bass driver on a speaker, turns the whole bassline and drums to a sort of muddled mush...thus effecting the timing (IMO).

Exactly! It's all about control.

 

[CnoEvil]

Exactly! It's all about control.

........very necessary, when someone is "pushing your buttons" on a forum. :shifty:

 

[Singslinger]

I'm not sure if this makes sense but although I'm not able to properly describe what 'transparency' is in a hifi context, I know it when I hear it. And the one thing I've found is that for me, greater transparency doesn't necessarily equate to more enjoyable listening. An example - one of the most transparent systems I've ever heard is a full FM Acoustic setup. Massively expensive; crystal clear sound with hardly any coloration but too sterile or clinical for my liking. Similarly, Soulutions electronics paired with Magico speakers - jaw-dropping transparency but a bit bland. At a fraction of the price though, a tube Macintosh preamp/solid state Mac power amps driving Emerald Physics speakers - sonic heaven! A warm, inviting but colored sound no doubt, but more enjoyable to me.

I agree.

I think it poses the question of whether a system needs to be analytical to be transparent.

Also, what exactly is the relationship between Neutrality, Transparancy, Accuracy and Detail.

Yes, I think an over-analytical presentation is very impressive at first listen but over time could prove fatiguing. At the risk of being flamed or drawing the ire of any Swiss members (and apologies in advance if I do) my experience is that high-end Swiss electronics tend to emphasize this sort of presentation- a very clean sound, with plenty of detail and neutrality but one that encourages the listener to focus on how impressive the sound is, sometimes to the detriment of the music.

 

[Sliced Bread]

Exactly! It's all about control.

........very necessary, when someone is "pushing your buttons" on a forum. :shifty:

LOL :rofl:

 

[Sliced Bread]

No it's not. 46% of adults in the United States believe that the world is less than 10,000 years old.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...ha

 

[Alec]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJDGcxAf9D8

 

[The_Lhc]

No it's not. 46% of adults in the United States believe that the world is less than 10,000 years old.

The number of Americans who really, fully, acutally believe that the Earth is really, truly less than 10,000 years old is much smaller.

I'd be willing to bet it isn't...

 

[moon]

How far have we come from the OP. Still quite can't fathom how transparency appears in for and against for the same product.:quest:

Anyone ...... Bueller........Bueller:quest:

 

[Andrew Everard]

Still quite can't fathom how transparency appears in for and against for the same product.:quest:

Anyone ...... Bueller........Bueller:quest:

Answered many, many pages back, where I said of the review in question:

"'transparency' isn't the 'AGAINST' here: rather it says of the Marantz 'Just a shade soft and smoothed out – could do with a touch more transparency'"

 

[moon]

Still quite can't fathom how transparency appears in for and against for the same product.:quest:

Anyone ...... Bueller........Bueller:quest:

Answered many, many pages back, where I said of the review in question:

"'transparency' isn't the 'AGAINST' here: rather it says of the Marantz 'Just a shade soft and smoothed out – could do with a touch more transparency'"

sorry I thought I'd read in the magazine the word transparency was quite clearly in the against column, I must of misread

 

[moon]

Further I don't really buy it that an amp that has had so much praise heaped on it and won awards in its previous reviews , including " nothing of note" in the against section is suddenly found to be soft and smooth and needing more transparency when a new model by Rotel comes out. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Andrew Everard]

sorry I thought I'd read in the magazine the word transparency was quite clearly in the against column

It is, but with all those other words, too

 

[moon]

sorry I thought I'd read in the magazine the word transparency was quite clearly in the against column

It is, but with all those other words, too

ok no worries. I hope the thread has been enjoyed anyway. Just to clarify I enjoy the magazine and the reviews. Even if some descriptions cod mean various things to various people. 🙂

 

[WinterRacer]

We also had a definition of transparent too: "the ability of the amplifier to pass the signal unchanged" (apart from amplifying it).

As used by the WHF team, transparency appears to be a catch all term for all types of distortion, including: harmonic, inter modulation (non harmonic), noise, temporal, deliberate, bandwidth, etc.

So basically, the test team seem to think the Marantz has a bit more distortion than the Rotel. Something a bit more specific would have helped I guess.

 

[ISAC69]

the same can be said about the Chord Carnival Siverscreen spaker cable in the past it was the cable of the year and now WHF

changed their mind and the latest review said it lack transparency ...

I am getting suspicious on WHF reviews now many great companies such as Tellurium , Storm Audio act. are never been reviewed

on WHF- Why ??? I decided that my own demo is the best way to judged ...

 

[moon]

We also had a definition of transparent too: "the ability of the amplifier to pass the signal unchanged" (apart from amplifying it). As used by the WHF team, transparency appears to be a catch all term for all types of distortion, including: harmonic, inter modulation (non harmonic), noise, temporal, deliberate, bandwidth, etc. So basically, the test team seem to think the Marantz has a bit more distortion than the Rotel. Something a bit more specific would have helped I guess.

is that THD? Because the Marantz measures 0.0008% and the Rotel measures 0.03% according to the Hifix website.

 

[WinterRacer]

We also had a definition of transparent too: "the ability of the amplifier to pass the signal unchanged" (apart from amplifying it). As used by the WHF team, transparency appears to be a catch all term for all types of distortion, including: harmonic, inter modulation (non harmonic), noise, temporal, deliberate, bandwidth, etc. So basically, the test team seem to think the Marantz has a bit more distortion than the Rotel. Something a bit more specific would have helped I guess.

is that THD? Because the Marantz measures 0.0008% and the Rotel measures 0.03% according to the Hifix website.

THD = Total Harmonic Distortion, it's not a measure of all distortion, hence why I suggested it would have been helpful if WHF has used a term more specific than a catch all term.

 

[shadders]

Hi,

i had a quicl look at the specifications of the amplifiers in question - one person commented that transparency can be correlated with the ability of the amplifier to control the loudspeaker.

If we use this as a basis for indicating that one amplifier is more transparent than another (i cannot prove this, it is assumed).

There is a specification that amplifier manufacturers provide which is Damping fator - the ratio of an 8ohm load and the amplifier output impedance :

Marantz PM6004 Damping Factor is 100.

Rotel RA-10 Damping Factor is 180

As such, the Rotel has nearly half the output impedance than that of the Marantz. This may account for why the Rotel can control the loudspeaker with greater ease than the Marantz, and hence provide the reviewer with the perception of greater transparency.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[char_lotte]

Can somebody direct me to and show me the specs that show my Cyrus mono's and Spendor A9's are thin and bright?

 

[shadders]

Can somebody direct me to and show me the specs that show my Cyrus mono's and Spendor A9's are thin and bright?

Hi,

Damping Factor can change over the frequency range - as does the impedance of the loudspeaker, hence there are probably a multitude of variations of amplifier and loudspeaker combinations that create a specific sound.

Regards,

Shadders.