what to do with a disappointing new sound?

[admin_exported]

I owned a What Hi-Fi recommended package of marantz amp & cd player and KEFs for years and really enjoyed it.

Extra $ came my way and decided to upgrade to rega apollo cd, arcam 70 amp and focal 716v speakers.

Don't like the sound. the focals give tremendous detail but i find the whole experience lacking warmth and too harsh on the top end.

Any suggestions?

 

[jaxwired]

You need to post this under the "Hi Fi" forum. People will be slow to see this under this forum category...

[Good call - thread moved by Mods]

 

[Big Chris]

Try a set of Rothwell attenuators. When I introduced these to my system, they gave a more detailed sound, and made things slightly warmer (and allowed greater fine tuning of the volume control too)

They're on eBay for less than £40.

Alternatively, try to find some Van Den Hul 'The Bay' I/Cs, I had these for years. They were detailed but had warmth (too much warmth for me as it turned out). Not sure if warmth is a VDH trait, but I've read reviews of their other cables which leads me to think they favour the warmer side of neutral.

Again, they're not expensive.

 

[d_a_n1979]

IMO your amp is the weak link in the system.

The A70 was an ok amp but lacks power and was never the best for a decent soundstage.

Have you a budget to look at different amps?

Also; what music do you listen to?

 

[JoelSim]

I think the amp is weak and the Focal's tend towards brightness/harshness on the treble.

 

[Anonymous]

All Focal (was JM Lab) loudspeakers are voiced with heightened treble. All their tweeters are very high quality so Focal increase the sensitivity and give them a larger than normal bandwidth. Most loudspeakers designed and built in France are like this (Cabasse, Triangle). Therefore i would recommend changing your loudspeakers.

Years ago i used to admire the technology that JM Lab put into their more expensive loudspeakers - that was until my friend purchased a pair. The treble was highly informative (due to increased sensitivity of the tweeter) but far too strong. This proved fatiguing on longer listening sessions.

Cheers

 

[floyd droid]

I tend to think that you had a classic case of bad system synergy. And as for the cabasse iroise 3s i heard the other month, fatiguing,far from it.

 

[Anonymous]

The iroise 3s waterfall plot

EDITED BY MODS - House Rules

does indeed show a slightly heightened treble. You'll be used to this as you own a pair of Focal loudspeakers. Though i admit, your loudspeakers are very good examples of the breed

 

[matthewpiano]

I'd agree with Floyd Droid. Bad system synergy at play here.

Personally I think you need to ditch the amp. The A70 is not one of Arcam's best efforts and, in particular, appears to lack any sense of grip or timing. It won't be controlling the Focals very well at all.

I'd be tempted to try a NAD C355BEE amp in your system.

 

[Anonymous]

The Arcam amplifier you have has a characteristically warm sound, not very dynamic with poor control of low bass. Typical of many Arcam amplifiers due to a small power supply amongst other things.

This is the only remotely warm sounding piece of kit in your system. Changing only the amp will make things worse in my opinion. If you can, change the amplifier and speakers. Stay away from Focal unless buying one of their larger more expensive designs if you don't like a bright sound.

If you only change the amp, i guarentee you'll be back on this forum asking what went wrong

 

[Anonymous]

*Sorry, meant to say cheap Arcam amps in the above script. Small power supplies due to price constriction. Obviously doesn't apply to their more expensive offerings

cheers

 

[matthewpiano]

Yes, at the entry level price point Arcam just aren't competitive. NAD and Rotel do it much better IMO. Its when you really start spending money that Arcam come on song.

 

[Anonymous]

Very true. I once owned a NAD C320 (great headroom fo such a little amp) and a latter a Rotel RA-971mkii (Excellent). Though I have to say i don't like the fact Rotel are using ICEpower in their more expensive offerings (good to see they also have a 200W class AB power amp). This technology, licensed from Bang and Olufson, is fine in a subwoofer where the restricted Bandwidth means treble can't be affected by switching artefacts. But for full range high fidelity it isn't up to scratch.

Funnily enough they started using ICEpower when B&W took over.

Cheers

 

[Frank Harvey]

The Focals do tend to have an 'energetic' treble - I wouldn't say it was overly bright, but you should find the Rega and Arcam smoothing this out a little. You could try some Van Den Hul speaker cable which tends to be smoother and warmer than most, otherwise have a look at speakers from Spendor.

 

[Anonymous]

You dont mention which speaker cable or interconnects you use, someone asked a similar question like this elsewhere, and I second guessed his brand of cable was QED Silver Anniversary, and was correct.

He bought my VDH cs 122 cable and lived happily ever after.

In all seriousness, what are you using? It can make a big difference, as others have said, VDH is on the warmer side of neutral, and some even call it "Bland n Dull"

Before you swap out any boxes, swap in different wire.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Bananaman2:Funnily enough they started using ICEpower when B&W took over.

When B&W took over what? And what's that got to do with ICEPower?

 

[chebby]

Andrew Everard:
Bananaman2:Funnily enough they started using ICEpower when B&W took over.

When B&W took over what? And what's that got to do with ICEPower?

Something to do with B&W, Rotel and Class‚ all belonging to the same group and B&W supplying Jaguar with ICE for the new XJ maybe?. (Dunno, just guessing.)

Seems there is a tie-up with Harman too. Quote...
Key developments for B&W Group Ltd.

Bowers & Wilkins Signs Auto OEM Deal with Harman International

05/5/2008

Bowers
& Wilkins expects its audio brand to appear on more OEM auto sound
systems now that it signed an exclusive long-term deal under which
Harman International will supply Bowers & Wilkins-branded systems
to premium luxury automakers worldwide. The B&W deal covers all
vehicle makers but Jaguar, which currently offers B&W-branded
systems in its XF and XKR vehicles. The Jaguar sound systems are
manufactured for B&W by a third party to B&W's specs. Harman
manufactures luxury-vehicle sound systems bearing such home and car
audio aftermarket brands as JBL, Harman Kardon, Infinity, Lexicon and
Mark Levinson, all of which are Harman-owned brands.

 

[Anonymous]

I hold my hands up. I was under the faint impression that b&w owned Rotel. There are of course just a distributor.

I thought maybe b&w were pushing them towards ICEpower seeing as hey us this in their subwoofers.

This still doesn't explain why rotel are using said technology, seeing as it sounds worse than there class AB designs (There 200W class AB power is more expensive than there 250W PWM model because it sounds better).

Any views on this?

 

[Andrew Everard]

chebby:Something to do with B&W, Rotel and Class‚ all belonging to the same group

Nope, B&W merely distributes Rotel in Europe, and Class‚.

chebby:and B&W supplying Jaguar with ICE for the new XJ maybe?

Different kind of ICE. One is in-car entertainment, the other's an amplifier technology.

 

[shooter]

What is ice amplifier tech?

 

[Andrew Everard]

shooter69:What is ice amplifier tech?

This.

 

[Anonymous]

Lots about icepower here. http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/en/technology/power/

It's very useful in subwoofers where the restricted bandwidth means switching artefacts won't mess with the treble (a classic problem with class D, though they are getting better).

The amp in my system is a PWM design. Very good continuous power but not much more dynamic power. Frequency response also changes slighly with impedance due to the low-pass filter in the output stage. But on the bright side - no crossover distortion and plenty current.

cheers

 

[shooter]

Ah yes class D seems to be the the big 'thing' at the moment with Lyngdorf bringing out the new digital Millenium MK IV.

Do you think it will catch on?

 

[matthewpiano]

For the OP (and back to the topic)...

Before you start trying to change any equipment experiment with positioning. Where are your speakers in relation to rear and side walls? Are they firing at hard to soft furnishing? What sort of flooring do you have? How much toe-in are you using for your speakers?

These are all things you should be looking at and experimenting with before you give up on your existing combination of kit. Room interaction has as much effect on sound as the equipment itself IMO. Set-up can make or break a good system so its worth dedicating some time to.

Also, I'd agree with previous comments about cables. What are you using? I agree completely that if you are using QED you should change. I really don't rate their cables at all. You need to try Chord Company or Van Den Hul for a better balanced sound.

 

[6th.replicant]

There's now't wrong with the Arcam A70! IMHO, it's very good at handling a broad range of music - how often does an amp that has 'good timing... dynamic sound... etc' when playing rock music, then make classical, choral & jazz sound slightly tinny & synthetic? The A70 is a very good compromise (a dirty word, I know) if you have an eclectic CD/LP collection.

It's also very good with 'old school' AAD/ADD-type CDs (eg Otis Redding's), opening up the sound & giving some much-needed low-end weight, while making the mid-range sound more detailed & natural, which complements early CDs' higher top-end frequency range.

It's also very 'tune-able', responding well to bi-wiring, mains cable/block upgrades, interconnect & speaker cable upgrades.

However, the A70 does need careful pairing with speakers. For example, last year I demo'd my A70 with some Monitor Audio BR5 & BR6s, & both sounded very bright/metallic at the top-end, with floor-shaking bass & a somewhat 'empty' mid-range.

But hey, it's only my opinion...