What rough price for Hi-Fi diminishing returns

[Snooker]

My last post seemed to go off track, I am totally happy with my system and feel you can go one level better but then say after a Naim Atom you are looking at diminishing returns, that would be at around £3500 allowing £1000 for speakers, surely this is correct

 

[WayneKerr]

Think your last thread stayed on track quite well, maybe you didn't like the answers

The only way to find this out for yourself is to go and listen to a £3.5K system and then ask to hear a £10K system and compare. It won't be 3x better but the differences will be there, you might like the differences, you might not. Then form your judgement

Plus you only seem to be interested in one box solutions.

 

[Deleted member 201267]

My last post seemed to go off track, I am totally happy with my system and feel you can go one level better but then say after a Naim Atom you are looking at diminishing returns, that would be at around £3500 allowing £1000 for speakers, surely this is correct

I think it is listening room size dependant.

A small room and being sat close to the loudspeakers, for me, means a quality set of small actives will in my opinion produce a sound as good as it gets.

However a huge listening room with a huge space to fill is going to require much larger loudspeakers and, likewise, large powerful amps to control them properly...possibly subs too.

Once again large active loudspeakers (ATC) would be my choice but they are not going to be cheap...

 

[Al ears]

I don't think it's got anything to do with listeners rooms it's all to do with their bank balance.
Diminishing returns are highly variable and contentious, and entirely down to oneself.
Do you expect a £200 amplifier to be twice as good as a £100 one?
Probably not, however the same could apply if you stuck two extra noughts on the end of those figures.
Again, diminishing returns will vary depending if it's an amplifier, speakers, or CDP we are talking about.
Using the figures above and applying them to a cartridge then yes, I might expect it to be twice as good.

 

[bigfish786]

The major benefit I’ve found from going up the price scale towards high end is the realism. The instruments are more natural. A drum kit strike sounds like you are there in the room with it.
this quality is heard in every beat of the music. And what was once thought of as a poor recording now comes to life. I’m only talking about my own experiences, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that was replicated with other kit. Diminishing returns for me equates to buying something more expensive and realising very little if any gains. Up to now, I’ve not had any bad experience of diminishing returns with seperates.
speakers have all been positive improvements, though the triangles took a lot of effort to sound right in my room. Things improved a lot once hooked up to the Luxman.

 

[nopiano]

Almost every consumer product has diminishing returns, and this is why budget models - cars, irons, loudspeakers, kettles, take your pick - are invariably the best value, and sometimes all you need.

However, each of us has a differing take on where the cutoff is. Trying to stick with Hifi, I’ve got at least two bargain items, which perform way beyond their notional price, and therefore one can say beyond them lies diminishing returns.

1. Q Acoustics 3020i speakers cost less than £250 a pair, about the same as the stone bases retailed at on my old Sonus fabers. The QA sound much better than the stone bases! But seriously, they sound amazing for the money and perfectly enjoyable. However, the finish is vinyl wrap - very nicely done - but hardly comparable to the cherry veneer on my ATC and nothing like the simply fabulous maple staves that make up my Guarneri speakers.

2. My £250 Tascam CD-200 cd player has the same transport as an ATC player that costs around £3000 and a Primare at £2500. Obviously the casing is far superior on the luxury models, but how much better do they sound?

I’m quite happy with supermarket baked beans but my wife and her children insist on Heinz at three times the price! We are all different. 🤔

 

[James105]

My last post seemed to go off track, I am totally happy with my system and feel you can go one level better but then say after a Naim Atom you are looking at diminishing returns, that would be at around £3500 allowing £1000 for speakers, surely this is correct

Listen to a NAD M10 connected to Dali Menuet, thats about £3,500, then swap out the speakers for Dali Rubicon 2's or the amp for a M33 and you will hear where your money goes, swap them both out thats about double your budget, once you're happy with the 2's try the 5 or 6's. This is just staying within two brands line ups that I'm familiar with.

 

[doifeellucky]

Diminishing returns are dependent on so many variables such as wealth, room and hearing.

If you have poor hearing or a room with poor acoustics spending significant amounts will mostly likely offer no benefit whatsoever.

On the other hand some basic room treatment, if viable, like a rug, may offer a much better ‘upgrade’ for significantly less than a fancy DAC.

 

[SteveH72]

I’ve always worked on the rule of 2. To hear any improvement, you need to spend twice as much. E.g. if you have £500 speakers, you need to spend a £1000 to improve. Next improvement will be £2000. This certainly won’t be twice the improvement, though. The law of diminishing marginal returns rules the HiFi world.

 

[doifeellucky]

I’ve always worked on the rule of 2. To hear any improvement, you need to spend twice as much. E.g. if you have £500 speakers, you need to spend a £1000 to improve. Next improvement will be £2000. This certainly won’t be twice the improvement, though. The law of diminishing marginal returns rules the HiFi world.

I’d tend to agree, though I’ve also seen comments saying x3 for a very noticeable improvement. The trouble is to get the full benefit you also need to upgrade the associated equipment too, so ultimately have to spend far more than just double.

 

[James105]

Almost every consumer product has diminishing returns, and this is why budget models - cars, irons, loudspeakers, kettles, take your pick - are invariably the best value, and sometimes all you need.

However, each of us has a differing take on where the cutoff is. Trying to stick with Hifi, I’ve got at least two bargain items, which perform way beyond their notional price, and therefore one can say beyond them lies diminishing returns.

1. Q Acoustics 3020i speakers cost less than £250 a pair, about the same as the stone bases retailed at on my old Sonus fabers. The QA sound much better than the stone bases! But seriously, they sound amazing for the money and perfectly enjoyable. However, the finish is vinyl wrap - very nicely done - but hardly comparable to the cherry veneer on my ATC and nothing like the simply fabulous maple staves that make up my Guarneri speakers.

2. My £250 Tascam CD-200 cd player has the same transport as an ATC player that costs around £3000 and a Primare at £2500. Obviously the casing is far superior on the luxury models, but how much better do they sound?

I’m quite happy with supermarket baked beans but my wife and her children insist on Heinz at three times the price! We are all different.

Almost every consumer product has diminishing returns, and this is why budget models - cars, irons, loudspeakers, kettles, take your pick - are invariably the best value, and sometimes all you need.

However, each of us has a differing take on where the cutoff is. Trying to stick with Hifi, I’ve got at least two bargain items, which perform way beyond their notional price, and therefore one can say beyond them lies diminishing returns.

1. Q Acoustics 3020i speakers cost less than £250 a pair, about the same as the stone bases retailed at on my old Sonus fabers. The QA sound much better than the stone bases! But seriously, they sound amazing for the money and perfectly enjoyable. However, the finish is vinyl wrap - very nicely done - but hardly comparable to the cherry veneer on my ATC and nothing like the simply fabulous maple staves that make up my Guarneri speakers.

2. My £250 Tascam CD-200 cd player has the same transport as an ATC player that costs around £3000 and a Primare at £2500. Obviously the casing is far superior on the luxury models, but how much better do they sound?

I’m quite happy with supermarket baked beans but my wife and her children insist on Heinz at three times the price! We are all different. 🤔

Stir one shot of Hienz ketchup into the beans and they'll never know

 

[SteveH72]

I’d tend to agree, though I’ve also seen comments saying x3 for a very noticeable improvement. The trouble is to get the full benefit you also need to upgrade the associated equipment too, so ultimately have to spend far more than just double.

Indeed

 

[Revolutions]

As everyone has already pointed out, you’re going to get diminishing returns at any price point above where you’re currently happy.

A bit of economics 101 in case anyone feels like being MattSplained on a Sunday morning…

Disruptive Innovation: you’ll always find better value at lower price points. Established brands naturally chase their highest margin customers to give better returns to shareholders. That will be the high end products, not the high turnover, low price stuff that doesn’t make as much profit.

Enter brand Y, who offer the same quality entry range product for cheaper. They hoover up the customers of the incumbent, which is snoozing & not paying enough attention to the low end of their customer segments.

Brand Y will likely rapidly innovate their product but keep the price low. The incumbent is forced to respond with a better product at that lower price point.

 

[Revolutions]

As everyone has already pointed out, you’re going to get diminishing returns at any price point above where you’re currently happy. It’s as much about feeling like you get an improvement for your money- fit & finish matter to maximisers. But less so for satisfiers (to use some marketing jargon).

A bit of economics 101 in case anyone feels like being Mattsplained on a Sunday morning…

Disruptive Innovation: you’ll always find better value at lower price points. Established brands naturally chase their highest margin customers to give better returns to shareholders. That will be the high end products, not the high turnover, low price stuff that doesn’t make as much profit.

Enter brand Y, who offer the same quality entry range product for cheaper. They hoover up the customers of the incumbent, which is snoozing & not paying enough attention to the low end of their customer segments.

Brand Y will likely rapidly innovate their product but keep the price low. The incumbent is forced to respond with a better product at that lower price point, etch

 

[Snooker]

Its a fact that diminishing returns will exist, and anything over around £3500 is where you need to spend lots more money for a small increase in sound quality and so on, and if you can afford it and that is what you want to do then fine no problem

I think technology has moved on so much that these days the cost for diminishing returns has reduced

If I had the choice between my system and the Naim Atom I would keep mine as the sound improvement to me does not merit the extra cost for the listening volumes I use due to neighbours

 

[nopiano]

…for the listening volumes I use due to neighbours

I remember being in a studio flat on weekdays for a few years, while commuting to London. Little Mission 760 speakers with a nice Marantz amp and CD player were excellent at modest levels. I still have all of them, thirty years on, albeit some repairs/overhaul needed to the electronics.

 

[doifeellucky]

Its a fact that diminishing returns will exist, and anything over around £3500 is where you need to spend lots more money for a small increase in sound quality and so on, and if you can afford it and that is what you want to do then fine no problem

I think technology has moved on so much that these days the cost for diminishing returns has reduced

If I had the choice between my system and the Naim Atom I would keep mine as the sound improvement to me does not merit the extra cost for the listening volumes I use due to neighbours

£5815.

 

[WayneKerr]

Its a fact that diminishing returns will exist, and anything over around £3500 is where you need to spend lots more money for a small increase in sound quality and so on, and if you can afford it and that is what you want to do then fine no problem

I think technology has moved on so much that these days the cost for diminishing returns has reduced

If I had the choice between my system and the Naim Atom I would keep mine as the sound improvement to me does not merit the extra cost for the listening volumes I use due to neighbours

Your opinion, which you are entitled to, and yes diminishing returns exist with everything. But you only have one point of reference, your current system vs a Naim Atom... not exactly exhaustive research is it?

 

[Snooker]

Your opinion, which you are entitled to, and yes diminishing returns exist with everything. But you only have one point of reference, your current system vs a Naim Atom... not exactly exhaustive research is it?

I am comparing the Naim Atom which I have tested to other stuff I recently heard at the Bristol Hi-Fi Exhibition

 

[Al ears]

I am comparing the Naim Atom which I have tested to other stuff I recently heard at the Bristol Hi-Fi Exhibition

Not exactly the right place to compare products unfortunately, unless you happen to live in a hotel....
Pretty sure most here would say it starts a lot lower than your quoted figure.

 

[Snooker]

Pretty sure most here would say it starts a lot lower than your quoted figure.

Well I would not disagree with that, I was just giving a well known example of a very good system, and as I have said I am more than happy with my system at £800 in total

 

[BlakeHoobs]

The point of diminishing returns in Hi-Fi audio equipment is a topic of much debate among audiophiles and enthusiasts. The concept is that, beyond a certain price point, the incremental improvement in sound quality becomes smaller and smaller for each additional dollar spent. In other words, you might get a significant improvement in sound quality by spending a little more money when you're in the budget or mid-range sector, but once you reach high-end equipment, you might have to spend a lot more to achieve a relatively minor improvement. Mine is approximately £1000 and I got the best prices for the setup with Priceva I'm more than satisfied!

 

[Dom]

When investing in ultra high-end audio equipment factors such as higher volume and lower distortion and noise are significant considerations.

 

[nopiano]

When investing in ultra high-end audio equipment factors such as higher volume and lower distortion and noise are significant considerations.

I’d expect any ultra high-end kit to already be more than satisfactory on those basic measures.

 

[Dom]

I’d expect any ultra high-end kit to already be more than satisfactory on those basic measures.

I was comparing HiFi systems with computers, suggesting that in both cases, spending more money typically results in better hardware and components.

But that doesn't guarantee a significant improvement in sound quality, that's all.

And maybe these measures may seem quite basic, but it's a common observation that many people struggle to distinguish between audio systems priced at £5,000 and those costing £10,000.