If I purchase 2 x Subwoofers of the same - Being Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra. Both with DSP and both with a set up mic - how would I perform the set up ? Would I do this seperatley with each sub (tho other one being off) of would I perform the dsp at the same time presumably meaning I would sit both mics next to each other and run the set up at the same time ... ?
What if I buy 2 Subwoofers ??
- Thread starter umbucker
- Start date
No idea but have you a mansion? And I recon you will need some serious setup issues if you want to do it properly. But I know nuffin.
cheers
What is yr partner kit?
"1200W Velodyne SPL-1000 Subwoofer for rooms upto 3500 cu feet in size"
cheers
What is yr partner kit?
"1200W Velodyne SPL-1000 Subwoofer for rooms upto 3500 cu feet in size"
Treat both subs individually, as you would ones single sub, and run the EQ on each one separately. You will then need to adjust the levels of both, as when they output together, their volume will be too high. You don't say what AV amp or processor you are using, but if you are investing in £3k worth of subs, I would assume you have a unit with some sort of automated EQ system. This will set the levels correctly for you, and the auto set-up should be ran after you have ran the individual sub-EQ.
It is worth noting that the main reason for having two subs is to help flatten the frequency response in the region of the frequency spectrum that the subs are working in, therefore correct placement in your room is critical. This can only be done accurately by measuring the frequency response at you main listening positions and finding the two opposing sub locations that generate the flattest combined frequency response.
It is worth noting that the main reason for having two subs is to help flatten the frequency response in the region of the frequency spectrum that the subs are working in, therefore correct placement in your room is critical. This can only be done accurately by measuring the frequency response at you main listening positions and finding the two opposing sub locations that generate the flattest combined frequency response.
bigboss
Moderator
Hmm I would tend to disagree with you both there im afraid. I know everything below a certain frequncy is suposed to be none directional due to such large wave cycles but I think any subwoofer is locatable to an extent. The way my set up is now where my front L+R are capable of going down to 33Hz - I have my crossover set to 50Hz on my Pioneer LX85 amp. If I switch between LR + Sub to L+R with no sub the intagration in terms of sound field increases so much that when I switch it back to the sub taking those low frequencies it is easily identifiable in my room to its placment. I was thinking with 2 subs - one next to L and one next to R - the sterreo sound field would open to something similar to when I am not using a sub at all. Put the sub in the middle of the front speakers I hear you say...I have tried this and perhaps due to phasing issues there is a significan drop in the ultra low frequencies causing the sub to boom around 40-50 Hz
The only reason I use a sub is for ultra low frequencies in the 20s to push through which my Tannoysare not capable of reproducing.
The only reason I use a sub is for ultra low frequencies in the 20s to push through which my Tannoysare not capable of reproducing.
You wont know until you try and perhaps in your room you will see the benefit. For non specific adivce my experience tells me one big sub is better than two lesser units combined.
bigboss
Moderator
cheeseboy said:
Agreed. Either that or something's wrong with the placement or subwoofer settings. I cannot locate my subwoofer, no matter how hard I try. It's meant to be non-directional. If it's locatable to any extent, one of the above needs sorting.
MUSICRAFT
Well-known member
bigboss
Moderator
MUSICRAFT said:bigboss said:
Hi bigboss
Ok i admit it. Your AW-12 is here
All the best
Rick @ Musicraft
Can you give it back to me please? :read:
MUSICRAFT
Well-known member
Hi umbucker
I also feel that you should also look at using a single sub woofer. At around £3k JL Audio's Fathom F112 or Fathom F113 are also worth consideration.
http://www.jlaudio.co.uk/f112-gloss-home-audio-fathom-powered-subwoofers-96127
http://www.jlaudio.co.uk/f113-gloss-home-audio-fathom-powered-subwoofers-96137
Fwiw, i've recently been using a Fathom F113 (with Audiolab's 8200AP & Chord Electronics DSP8000) and the Fathom F113 produces a very fast, clean, dynamic, deep and punchy bass :twisted: Btw, the amount of movement the Fathom F113's drive unit is capable of is crazy :twisted:
All the best
Rick @ Musicraft
I also feel that you should also look at using a single sub woofer. At around £3k JL Audio's Fathom F112 or Fathom F113 are also worth consideration.
http://www.jlaudio.co.uk/f112-gloss-home-audio-fathom-powered-subwoofers-96127
http://www.jlaudio.co.uk/f113-gloss-home-audio-fathom-powered-subwoofers-96137
Fwiw, i've recently been using a Fathom F113 (with Audiolab's 8200AP & Chord Electronics DSP8000) and the Fathom F113 produces a very fast, clean, dynamic, deep and punchy bass :twisted: Btw, the amount of movement the Fathom F113's drive unit is capable of is crazy :twisted:
All the best
Rick @ Musicraft
MUSICRAFT
Well-known member
bigboss said:MUSICRAFT said:bigboss said:
Hi bigboss
Ok i admit it. Your AW-12 is here
All the best
Rick @ Musicraft
Can you give it back to me please? :read:
Hi bigboss
Doctor's orders
All the best
Rick @ Musicraft
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
umbucker said:
I know what you mean. The 'omni-directional' nature of a subwoofer should mean that you can place it anywhere in the room, but if you place it in the rear right corner, you can tell where the sub is.
My previous sub was supposed to pretty clean, and I thought it didn't really draw much attention to itself, but I've since learned that it wasn't as good as I thought. Since moving on to a Ken Kreisel Sound DXD12012, I now realise how invisible a sub can be, and I'm not even using room EQ.
Which Tannoys do you have?
A second sub will give you a more even in-room response, which is a benefit in any room. The only drawback of this cash outlay is that you don't really gain much in any other area. It will sound a little cleaner as you're sharing the work that's needing to be done with two drivers rather than one, and the dual set up will have better headroom. Changing to a single, larger subwoofer, will bring noticeable gains regarding depth, and depending on the design, control and
At the moment, you are relying on your Velo for the room EQ (as the Pioneer doesn't EQ the sub frequencies), and I have no experience of how well that EQ works. You could try an Antimode sub EQ, or the new Dual Core if you're wanting to EQ two subs. Along with Audyssey XT32, these are about the best affordable sub EQ systems around at the moment.
Twin subs are far more capable than one at filling in the valleys and smoothing out peak energy standing wave areas. You get more dynamic headroom. Twin subs can really help. Plus, each sub doesn’t work as hard to fill the space, which results in less distortion and awesome-sounding more natural bass. Each cone will work a lot less, the cones voice coil will work in a more linear region. It is a win, win situation. Go for it!
I think you just need to get one good sub to start with.
I believe you currenlty have a Tannoy TS12 (read on another thread) which to me would be out of it's depth in your set up.
The point of the sub is to manage the bass so your crossover point would be better served at 80hz not your current 50hz i hear what your saying about your speaker capabilities but the point of the sub is to take the load of the speakers. You current sub isn't up to the job.
Personally instead of two i would just go for a Ken Kreisel DXD12012 or even the DXD808 which is cheaper but would be in a completely different league to the Tannoy TS12. You are talking premiership subs at champions league level with the Ken Kreisel subs.
If you still fell you need another sub after that then you could just add another one couldn't you.
I believe you currenlty have a Tannoy TS12 (read on another thread) which to me would be out of it's depth in your set up.
The point of the sub is to manage the bass so your crossover point would be better served at 80hz not your current 50hz i hear what your saying about your speaker capabilities but the point of the sub is to take the load of the speakers. You current sub isn't up to the job.
Personally instead of two i would just go for a Ken Kreisel DXD12012 or even the DXD808 which is cheaper but would be in a completely different league to the Tannoy TS12. You are talking premiership subs at champions league level with the Ken Kreisel subs.
If you still fell you need another sub after that then you could just add another one couldn't you.
I have frequently read comments that the Pioneer amps don't EQ the bass.
I think it works of the premise that you use one crossover for all speakers and EQ's on that basis IMO.
Example would be in direct mode with music the bass is lacking for want of a better word with MCACC engaged and at the same volume the bass intergrates seamlessly and unless i'm sat right on top of my sub is completely non directional.
Never felt the need for antimode etc. They may well make it even better but to me it's good enough as it is.
This could of course just be down to my make of subwoofer
I think it works of the premise that you use one crossover for all speakers and EQ's on that basis IMO.
Example would be in direct mode with music the bass is lacking for want of a better word with MCACC engaged and at the same volume the bass intergrates seamlessly and unless i'm sat right on top of my sub is completely non directional.
Never felt the need for antimode etc. They may well make it even better but to me it's good enough as it is.
This could of course just be down to my make of subwoofer
proffski said:
I got to listen at the local agent to the B&W in-wall subs (with their dedicated 250W amp), switching between one sub speaker (two 8" drivers) and two subs. The difference with both subs running was amazing, not in terms of overall volume, but rather the room filling fullness.
For what it is worth, I think Proffski hits the nail on the head that two subs "fill the spaces" better (so to speak) and produce a much better balanced, fuller, low tone field, without being unbalanced or dominating such as when the sub volume has been turned up disproportionately to the rest of the sound field.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Mr Steve said:
As I mentioned in my post
When you heard the single vs dual sub, was there any room EQ involved? If so, how was the system EQ's for use with both subs? Very few receivers can EQ two subs independently, and if the same EQ was used for both, it would be incorrectly set for one of those options.
Two subs shouldn't 'dominate'. The level of the subs will still be set to 75dB in the setup stage, so the amount of sub bass shouldn't differ to a single sub setup.
It boils down to whether you are happy with the performance of the smaller sub to invest in a second one, and have the smoother in-room response. Or, looking at a larger, more capable single subwoofer that will reach noticeably deeper with better SPL capability.
FrankHarveyHiFi said:
This is precisely my view.....and there isn't a "right" answer.
Personally, I would rather spend double the money on a far superior sub with decent EQ, provided the room wasn't very awkward, than compromise with cheaper ones. I've heard what a really good sub can do, which is why I hold this view.
Now if you can have 2 really good subs....... >)
FrankHarveyHiFi said:
So you do agree then that two subs can give a smoother in-room response and that the issue of SPL and depth of sound is down to the comparasin between the Actual subs used.
Then back to the OP, will buying two SPL1000 ultra's be better than one of whatever can be bought for their combined price?
Thus in the trade off of smoother in-room response vs depth and SPL, where is the tipping point between the options. Is it possible that at that price it is possible to get a sub that will be twice as deep or give you twice the SPL?
Mr Steve said:Then back to the OP, will buying two SPL1000 ultra's be better than one of whatever can be bought for their combined price?
Thus in the trade off of smoother in-room response vs depth and SPL, where is the tipping point between the options. Is it possible that at that price it is possible to get a sub that will be twice as deep or give you twice the SPL?
IMO There is more to a sub than SPLs and all out depth, such as negligable distortion, and being light on its feet, with the ability to play tunes. I would rather have one Velodyne DD than two Ultras.....but that is very personal.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Mr Steve said:
Yes
I can't say I'm overly familiar with the Velodyne range, but a quick Google tells me they're £1,500 each - which seems a lot for a single 10" driver - regardless of the power rating. I would have to say that there are plenty of more capable options out there for the cost of two SPL1000's, or even less.
Thus in the trade off of smoother in-room response vs depth and SPL, where is the tipping point between the options. Is it possible that at that price it is possible to get a sub that will be twice as deep or give you twice the SPL?
I think it's a case of looking at the subs involved for each comparison.
Twice as deep? Depth is reliant on cabinet volume, driver size, and amplifier capability (not necessarily all out power). A good sub will reach 20Hz. An excellent sub will reach deeper.
SPL is reliant on driver size and amplifier capability. A good sub will produce enough bass to fill your room. An excellent sub will be able to pressurise your room and physically shift the air in it.
Son_of_SJ
Well-known member
In my kitchen system I have two Tannoy TS12 subwoofers - I understand that the OP currently has one Tannoy TS12, is that right? They are currently also acting as speaker stands for my Eltax Shine 8 front loudspeakers, details of those here. Certainly, since I increased from one to two subwoofers in the kitchen, there is absolutely no shortage of power, and yes, I reduced the subwoofer level setting in the amplifier from -7.5dB to about -10dB, so that the overall volume produced by the two is roughly the same as had been produced by the single subwoofer. The Tannoy subwoofers cost about £400 each. Yet, I must concede that the single SVS PC12-Plus in the parlour (cost about £1,250) is slightly more powerful, and somewhat deeper. For lack of floor space it would be difficult to get a single, quite large, subwoofer in the kitchen, so I will be sticking with my two Tannoy TS12s even if I win the lottery (please!) When people listen to the kitchen system nobody mentions any lack of power or depth, and only in careful comparison with the parlour system does the greater ability of the parlour system become apparent.
One factor which may be relevant and which has not been touched on so far in this thread is whether the OP's other speakers in his surround-sound system are small or large. If they are are small, then of course the subwoofer has to work harder, because the low frequencies of all the satellite speakers have to go to the subwoofer. I'm lucky in that in all three of my rooms, the L/R front speakers and the L/R surround speakers are all designated as large (all roughly 90 cm tall) so that in all three rooms, the subwoofers have to produce the dedicated LFE signals, plus the low-frequency signals of only the centre and surround back speakers (and, in the parlour only, the front wides and front highs). So my subwoofers are not having to work too hard, because the main front pairs and the surround pairs of loudspeakers in all my rooms are large. So the subwoofers, not overworked, are happy. If all my satellite speakers were small, then the subwoofers would have to work harder.
One factor which may be relevant and which has not been touched on so far in this thread is whether the OP's other speakers in his surround-sound system are small or large. If they are are small, then of course the subwoofer has to work harder, because the low frequencies of all the satellite speakers have to go to the subwoofer. I'm lucky in that in all three of my rooms, the L/R front speakers and the L/R surround speakers are all designated as large (all roughly 90 cm tall) so that in all three rooms, the subwoofers have to produce the dedicated LFE signals, plus the low-frequency signals of only the centre and surround back speakers (and, in the parlour only, the front wides and front highs). So my subwoofers are not having to work too hard, because the main front pairs and the surround pairs of loudspeakers in all my rooms are large. So the subwoofers, not overworked, are happy. If all my satellite speakers were small, then the subwoofers would have to work harder.
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