What Hi*Fi? team & everyone else - delay & lip sync.....

[admin_exported]

This subject may well have been exhaustively covered on this forum, but please humour me.

We have just bought a Philips 42PFL9664 TV and we still have our ageing surround system we used with our Loewe CRT. We have an 'intimate' lounge (OK it's small) and our system is a Yamaha DSP-AX620 with Kef KHT2005 version 1 'eggs'.

We now have some handsome Audica 5.1 speakers (CS system 2) and we want a suitable new amp with HDMI and upscaling. I contemplated buying a Sony STR-DA2400ES or a Denon AVR-1910, but I have stumbled upon the subject of delay. I have not considered more expensive models as these seemed fine for our needs (before I encountered this issue).

My TV says everything should be fed to it directly and the optical digital out sent to the Amp to avoid delay in the sound and lip-sync issues. This totally negates the usefulness of a HDMI equipped amp. If I do connect everything to my new amp, can I compensate for the delay caused by the processing going on in the TVs Pixel Perfect engine? I.E. can you set a delay in the amp (not just a delay setting for the distance of the rear speakers like with my old Yamaha – a delay to the whole sound to allow for this potential lip-sync error?). I know there are devices that do perform this function, but surely this problem is now very common, even though we are only talking in the milliseconds and it should not require an additional box of tricks to solve (at not minor cost).

Another thing occurs to me. If I have little or no processing going on on my 360 & PS3 (as it must be), they won't have this delay in the surround sound. Therefore if I can set a delay, I'm going to have to be able to disable it for games consoles.

This was not a problem I had considered and I have not seen it touched upon in What Hi*Fi?.

Any intelligent comment is very much appreciated (I know it's out there).

 

[TKratz]

I am not sure why you need the optical out from your TV. Do you get the TV signal directly in your TV or via a box of some kind?

If the signal goes directly to your TV this is of course the only (or best) way you can do it. But otherwise you should direct all signals (sound and picture) through your receiver - preferably by HDMI - to avoid this problem.

I have the exact same problem with TV sound delay, and I haven't found any solution yet. As the sound seems to be delayed at the receiver end I am not sure you can do anything about it (applying a lip sync delay will only make the problem worse). But I might be wrong. I am definately no expert in this field.

 

[Andrew Everard]

And not all TVs output all inputs via their digital out. Many only allow the digital sound from the internal digital tuner to be output

 

[Tom Moreno]

TKratz:
I am not sure why you need the optical out from your TV. Do you get the TV signal directly in your TV or via a box of some kind?

If the signal goes directly to your TV this is of course the only (or best) way you can do it. But otherwise you should direct all signals (sound and picture) through your receiver - preferably by HDMI - to avoid this problem.

I have the exact same problem with TV sound delay, and I haven't found any solution yet. As the sound seems to be delayed at the receiver end I am not sure you can do anything about it (applying a lip sync delay will only make the problem worse). But I might be wrong. I am definately no expert in this field.

Hi guys,

Here's my 2p. TKratz is on the ball regarding feeding everything to the amp and then via HDMI to the telly. Regarding the sync, Most HDMI equipped amps have a function called auto lip sync and this is usually activated by default. This system works by the Telly sending a bit of info down the HDMI cable to the amp saying how much delay it applies to the picture and the amp delays the audio accordingly. While I'm sure that this must work well for most people, I have found with my Panasonic LCD TV that it is a liar and gave my amp a signal to add too much delay to the audio. This was corrected by turning off the auto lip sync function at the amp and applying a manual audio delay to my sources. Further to this I have found that different channels on Sky have varying levels of audio/video sync and I often have to adjust my delay setting from one channel to another if the flapping mouths get to be too much to bear.

 

[TKratz]

Hi Tom

This is interesting. I didn't actually think of the possibility that the amp apply a lip sync pr default.

Will this also be the case for signals transferred over optical connections? I thought this feature was bound to HDMI signals only.

Maybe I should try to disable lip sync and see if that works.

 

[Tom Moreno]

TKratz:
Hi Tom

This is interesting. I didn't actually think of the possibility that the amp apply a lip sync pr default.

Will this also be the case for signals transferred over optical connections? I thought this feature was bound to HDMI signals only.

Maybe I should try to disable lip sync and see if that works.

Hi TKratz,

The auto lip sync function is based on the connection between the TV and the output HDMI of the receiver and then applied to all sources be they digital or analogue in order to correct for the processing delay of the TV.

I think most HDMI AVRs have had auto lip sync as a feature for the last couple of model years.

When the auto lip-sync was on on my AVR, I found that the audio was slightly delayed behind the picture (the TV was telling the AVR that it wanted more delay than it really needed). When I turned ALS off, obviously all my source's audio was coming out in advance of the picture and then I had to set the delay (on my AVR) individually for each source. Now all the components like my Blu-ray, Media Centre Mac, and Xbox 360 have rock-solid lip sync... But as I said before the Sky box still needs futzing around with depending on which channel I watch. For this I'm grateful that my AVR does it's delay per input as opposed to one blanket setting, because constant futzing with it for the sky doesn't mean I need to go back and fix the setting for BD.

 

[j4mm3r]

Badamz, I am lucky enough to have the same tv as you, as you may recall from another topic on here.

I have a denon avr-2310 (which i couldnt recommend enough - stunning with movies & music alike) i feed everything through it inc. sky hd then feed one hdmi to the tv...

everything works fine, my dvd player etc, ive only had one lip sync issue with a bbc news program via sky hd box, at the time other sky channels worked fine and this hasnt returned, andrew of whf suggested it was the fact sometimes broadcasts are slightly out now and then esp if other channels were working fine.

Regarding tweaking settings ive not looked into it yet as the tv and reciever are both new i dont want too make to many changes, but ive just downloaded the manual for the denon 1910 and you can adjust the audio delay for each source. Also i noticed on sky there is a lip sync setting but like i say i think it is more to do with the broadcast than the tv processing.

I got RS to price match the denon 2310 for £699 its a monster of a perfomer!

j4mmer

 

[The_Lhc]

To answer the original question, it is really NOT recommended to send everything to the TV and then to the amp. It's the other way around, you send everything to the AMP and then to the TV, via one HDMI, as j4mm3r mentions above.

If the TV manual suggests you do otherwise then, well, it's wrong, frankly.

 

[TKratz]

But you do not always have the option to send the signal through your amp. If you do not process your signal through some kind of box from which you can direct the signal to your amp via HDMI your only option is to enter the signal directly to your TV and direct the sound from there to your amp via optical.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes - I did think it was a crazy idea, putting everything to the tv first (but this is the tv's suggestion not mine). I knew I would be told this is wrong, but as I said- I had not considered this issues at all.

The fact that a much appreciated fellow 9664 owner (thanks j4mm3r) has come on here and pointed out the Denon has the option to set delay per input is the most interesting fact to me - cheers. I had tried to download the Denon manual too, but without success. I have the pdf for the Sony amp manual, but have not spotted anything regarding this issue in there (only had a scan though). I will investigate the Denon manual myself now. I don't really want to buy a more expensive amp for our small room (we are spending enough at the moment!). The £400-450 bracket is spot on for us at the moment. Yours does seem a good buy though.

Where did you get the 1910 manual? The UK website just seems to have a leaflet.....

Cheers everyone. These forums are such a great place to accumulate first hand knowledge and valuable opinion.

 

[Anonymous]

I have found the Denon US manual and that does talk about auto lip-sync through HDMI and manual delay. The Sony manual (after a more detailed read) does also mention that AV sync is adjustable up to 300ms in 10 ms steps. It seems the amps wil account for any problem (should there be one), but the Sony manual does not specify if you can vary between inputs. I will have to pop in the Sony Centre and ask. The Sony amp has more optical inputs (which is useful to me), though I think I would prefer the Denon after reading the Supertest in WHF.

 

[Oldboy]

Hello all,

So glad someone else has opened up another lip sync thread as i have just encountered the same problem! After my new TV arrived last week i have had lip sync problems across ALL sources and i've yet to remedy it...it's strange that before with my old 32" sony lcd i had no probs atall, now though i get the problem across all sources and it varies between content.

I can't find as said already in this thread an auto lip sync feature on my amp but it does have a manual feature, the problem is i find myself constantly adjusting it between different dvds, games, tv etc. As i didn't have this problem before i'm at a loss as to how to solve it! Surely i shouldn't have to adjust the sync EVERY time i use the amp....HELP!!

 

[j4mm3r]

I was playing around last night with my receiver, and there is a setting to switch auto lip sync on or off and a further setting to adjust the audio delay for each source, when you select this option a small banner across the bottom of the tv pops up whilst watching the program and you can then adjust the audio delay in m/s whilst watching (very useful), when it pops up you can select the source to adjust then when done choose to save new settings to that source.

also looked on sky hd settings and there is an option to change the audio delay for the audio optical output in m/s.

having only just purchased my first receiver and experiencing the lip sync problem once so far (although now ok) id be interested in the experiences of more experienced users who have had problems, esp ones who cant assign the delay to individual sources like oldboy above, that would drive me crazy!

 

[Oldboy]

Driving me crazy is an understatement....i think it's now making me slightly mad! I would say i'm pretty good when it comes to setting up my equipment and have set up plenty of my friends systems but i'm really struggling with this one!!

Currently i have every manual out and i'm frantically searching for a solution but so far no luck, i refuse to accept that i should have to set sync every time i change a source...that can't be right surely? I even find that the sync level neede changes between individual dvd's, blurays and games when played from the same source (ps3 slim) perhaps i have missed something but i have now even tried another auto setup with the mic to see if that helped but no luck with that either.

I'm starting to think it's my amp since i have in the last week or so added my new Samsung 40" tv plus the PS3 slim but i just can't find an answer.....HELP.

NOTE: I've now found that i can store the lyp sync on the amp to each source ie tv, dvd, bd but i'm still getting lyp sync issues with the PS3 as stated above....that i can't seem to solve, is it the PS3? or the amp? aaarrrrggghhh.

 

[Anonymous]

Did I open a thread - or a can of worms?

Greetings oldboy (a phrase I regularly use in my club!). I am very interested in (and indeed sympathetic towards) your particular issue with the PS3 Slim since this may be closely echoed (ha ha - I'm over 40 and I can't say LOL) by our own situation as I was looking at a Sony amp (see my system below). Still deciding between the Sony 2400ES and the Denon 1910, though I know somebody on here will say Denon! Can't match his model though. Glad to see you discovered you can set the AV sync per input as with the Denon mentioned above as this is not clear in the Sony manual for the amp I am considering.

Please - keep this thread going if you find a solution or to see if anybody else does.....

 

[j4mm3r]

Badamz, do you have sky or a freeview box or none? cant see in your list.

only reason for asking is since ive had tv, ive had various picture qualities of sd broadcasts (through sky hd box) this is because ive changed settings on the denon avr or sky box. when watching tv through standard aerial fed to tv the picture is ok maybe a bit grainey now and then. thought id let you now i think i cracked it last night, ive managed to get sd picture from sky looking really very good, almost ruining the joy of hd! ive kept fiddling an messing up but got it spot on now...

this is on other forums i think, ive set the sky box to send signal via hdmi to auto (ie sd if sent as is) and told the denon to upscale to 1080i (i tried 1080p but for some reason it was noisy/grainy picture) and the picture is so good, i was watching footie on channel 5 last night and there was no picture noise and it was really sharp and crisp! ive had to adjust the lip sync tho, by quite a bit.

thought id let you know, as the 1910 upscales too, not sure if same chip but it will transform your sd picture quality.

 

[Oldboy]

Greetings Badamz!

I would say you opened a can of worms here! I still can't get to the bottom of this though....i was of the opinion that it may be my amp at fault but as i stated earlier i have only had this problem since adding new equipment and never had the problem when my sony amp was connected to my old 32" Sony lcd and old 'Fat' PS3 which makes me think the amp is NOT at fault (i may well be wrong!)

I have had another thought however...could it be down to system matching?? It does seem odd that after i replace the Sony tv i immediately started having problems. But that doesn't explain the problems i am experiencing with the PS3 slim, i still find i have to change lip sync whenever i watch or play ANYTHING on it whether that be a bluray, dvd or game. It's such a difficult question to get an answer to aswell as i'm finding narrowing down which component is at fault is difficult enough, which really i need to do before i start contacting manufacturers right? The only way out i can see at the moment is if i speed up my plans to buy a seperate bluray player but surely there must be an answer to this somewhere.....hope so!

My preference would be for the Sony amp btw, just because until now i have loved my Sony amp and previously had a Denon amp which i didn't like that much but i have heard the 1910 and got to say it's extremely good....it's a 50/50 choice! Just go for the one which best meets your requirements and i doubt you would be disappointed, oh and we aren't too far out age wise but you just have the edge on me (i'm 35) oldman! lol.

 

[Anonymous]

Firstly dearest j4mm3r, we don't have Sky HD (mulling), we only have a Sky+ box which (much gnashing of teeth) has neither a HDMI or a component output (conspiracy I call it - how long have they had SKY+ out?, long after component was 'normal').

I just can't quite get my head around what the extra £9.75 a month is for, when there are so few hi-def channels and many are free. Thanks for the upscaling info though. I plan to get all my gear, set it up on the floor and play with every setting and wiring option I can manage, before I set everything up (TV on the wall with cables straight through, along and back through to everything on a hifi stand in the corner).

As far as amp choice goes, creeky oldby (Ah, I remember 35. That was years before my back went. A month before my 40th, crunch - slipped disc, torn ligaments, never the same again. A year and a half later and I'm still in pain and my stomach was never the same after those non-steroidal anti-inflammatories (spelling?!?) made me bring up blood, but enough aged moaning you bright young thing!. I do miss being out on my Cannondale though. Bought it a new fork and disc brakes, new saddle and bars (& stem). Never been out on it since.....sob).

The only concern I had about the Sony amp was the fact the manual (got the pdf) does not say the AV Sync can be set for each input - and of course I now know it can. There were some earlier Denon amps I heard and I thought they were slow and rather lacking in vibrancy, but now they seem like the market leaders. The Sony is readily avialable for £400 and has 1 more optical input than the Denon (which is £440-450). Both are what I would call functional in appearance, but that optical input may swing me towards the Sony (the Denon only has 2 and I can't rely on everything being HDMI as the XBOX 360 comes with a component cable and I also have a Wii). Why do I want the Denon more though? I need that input - or at least I may well do. I have other Sony kit (2 DVDR/HDDs and they are excellent. 4 years, 100s and 100s of DVDs burnt and not 1 coaster or recording jump (unlike Sky+)). The Sony is cheaper (and I can get some cash back through Play.com), has the input and will match the DVDR. I should just get it.

But..... Your problem is very perplexing. You have sorted out any sync issue with everything else, but your PS3 is being arsey? I would contact Sony as you have their console and their amp and they are not agreeing. I have never had to deal with Sony direct though (the items I have of theirs have been totally reliable). I would give it a go. Do you set the TV to a different level of processing for the PS3 when you play a film (DVD or BR) on it as opposed to when you play a game (when you presumably minimise it to as little as possible to avoid gaming input lag). This was an issue I had thought about, using the PS3 for BR films (for this year anyway).

We are altering our lounge for the new AV setup and so we are in a state of flux, so I'm still at the 'what if' stage.

 

[j4mm3r]

Badamz:

I just can't quite get my head around what the extra £9.75 a month is for, when there are so few hi-def channels and many are free.

I agree with you there Badamz, £9.75 a month for a handful of hd channels is too much esp when your paying a subscription anyway!

I brought the latest amstrad hd box off a well know auction site for £90 brand new! I phoned sky to tell them ive purchased a hd box and theyve updated my viewing card and I can receive the the free hd channels like bbc & channel 4, plus when my box is updated i will be able to get itv hd too all free so im only paying my normal subscription, no extra £9.75. the only reason i got hd box was because of the hdmi aspect of connecting to my avr.

j4mm3r

 

[TKratz]

Badamz: A year and a half later and I'm still in pain and my stomach was never the same after those non-steroidal anti-inflammatories (spelling?!?)

Well, you got that one right. But for next time, and this is of topic, it is easier to write 'NSAIDs'

 

[The_Lhc]

j4mm3r:Badamz:

I just can't quite get my head around what the extra £9.75 a month is for, when there are so few hi-def channels and many are free.

I agree with you there Badamz, £9.75 a month for a handful of hd channels is too much esp when your paying a subscription anyway!

Huh, seems to have ditched my original reply, but there's 31 HD channels on Sky, 3 of which are available for free.

the only reason i got hd box was because of the hdmi aspect of connecting to my avr.

Hmmm, Stereo!

 

[j4mm3r]

thanx for ur friendly reply 'the_lhc' !

hdmi does picture aswell as sound, which can be upscaled via avr !

there's only 31 hd channels if your subcribe to every package, i only subscribe £17 a month so im not going to get sky sports hd etc, having looked at the sky hd channels available most sane people wouldnt watch them if they were free!

 

[Tom Moreno]

j4mm3r:
thanx for ur friendly reply 'the_lhc' !

hdmi does picture aswell as sound, which can be upscaled via avr !

there's only 31 hd channels if your subcribe to every package, i only subscribe £17 a month so im not going to get sky sports hd etc, having looked at the sky hd channels available most sane people wouldnt watch them if they were free!

I don't know about that. My wife and I watch content from Nat Geo HD, Discovery HD, and History HD quite a lot. I'd say that programming from those channels accounts for close to 50% of our total viewing. There's some very excellent programming on those channels.

 

[The_Lhc]

j4mm3r: thanx for ur friendly reply 'the_lhc' !

Curious comment, what exactly did you find unfriendly about it?

hdmi does picture aswell as sound, which can be upscaled via avr !

Or via the TV, mine does a great job and, as you'll need to plug an optical cable into the amp to get DD from Sky anyway I don't personally bother with the HDMI.

there's only 31 hd channels if your subcribe to every package, i only subscribe £17 a month so im not going to get sky sports hd etc,

Well that's your choice but you aren't going to get the SD versions either, therefore it's rather churlish to suggest that there's only a handful of HD channels. Might be only a few you can actually get but that doesn't make it true for everyone.

having looked at the sky hd channels available most sane people wouldnt watch them if they were free!

Really? Which ones? I watch Movies, Sports, record House off Sky 1 HD, Dexter off FX HD, watch a surprising amount of Rush HD (which has one of the best PQs going IMO), Discovery, pretty much all of them in fact. The only one that I really think isn't worth having is C4HD to be honest, usually because it isn't! I doubt I'll watch much on ITVHD either, because there's nothing on.

 

[j4mm3r]

the_lhc:j4mm3r:Badamz:

I just can't quite get my head around what the extra £9.75 a month is for, when there are so few hi-def channels and many are free.

I agree with you there Badamz, £9.75 a month for a handful of hd channels is too much esp when your paying a subscription anyway!

Huh, seems to have ditched my original reply, but there's 31 HD channels on Sky, 3 of which are available for free.

the only reason i got hd box was because of the hdmi aspect of connecting to my avr.

Hmmm, Stereo!

I was using these forums to help out people and to give & receive advice not going through conversations and making sarky quips as above!