What do you Hi-Fi freaks think of the Naim Atom then?

[QuestForThe13thNote]

At the indulgence show a naim/focal guy was trying to say the nova was all you needed with £10k ish focal speakers, and it just sounded terrible. Relatively flat and poor dynamically. I’m sure it would have sounded a hell of a lot better used with speakers in the £1500-3k class though.

And this is what happens when manufacturers try and appeal to everyone. The majority may well want one box streaming systems, but don't try and validate budget boxes with crazy expensive speakers they have no hope of controlling and making a good sound with, despite this approach being a common one on forums. It's one thing for this industry to destroy itself from the inside by the dealers it chooses, but to then give it a helping shove by showing people that a system worth five figures isn't worth anywhere near that, and give the impression to potential new customers that "high end" sounds naff, is quite another.

I can see that must be very frustrating for a dealer as it’s ridiculously self defeating and contradictory for hifi manufacturers to have these approaches. Cyrus do it with the cyrus one at shows too. It’s obviously done to catch people out who don’t know what £10k speakers sound like when driven really well, so that somehow the customer thinks they can have some of that sound quality with the expensive speakers by buying a relatively inexpensive amp /streamer unit. It doesn’t effect the slimmer audiophile market within that firm, as those who know like yourself David, and myself, will still spend on the decent gear to get the full or near full performance out of the speakers and matching like for like.

 

[jjbomber]

If I was the boss of Naim, I'd sack the person who came up with that idea, and those who followed through on it think it was a good idea. Then I'd sack myself for letting them do it.

And sack whoever buys those cheap screens that keep breaking down. There again, at £500 to fit a new one, it might be very good business.

And sack everyone in customer dis-service except Steve Hopkins. Oops, they've already done that I think.

Finally, as boss you don't sack yourself but make yourself redundant with a 6-figure pay off.

 

[davidf]

I can see that must be very frustrating for a dealer as it’s ridiculously self defeating and contradictory for hifi manufacturers to have these approaches. Cyrus do it with the cyrus one at shows too. It’s obviously done to catch people out who don’t know what £10k speakers sound like when driven really well, so that somehow the customer thinks they can have some of that sound quality with the expensive speakers by buying a relatively inexpensive amp /streamer unit. It doesn’t effect the slimmer audiophile market within that firm, as those who know like yourself David, and myself, will still spend on the decent gear to get the full or near full performance out of the speakers and matching like for like.

With demos like that, I'd be even more frustrated if I was a Naim dealer. I call it borderline irresponsible. Sorry if that comes across as harsh, but it's winding me up just talking thinking about it. If a manufacturer knows what they're doing, fine. I remember an open day with Arcam, and they wanted to use the then "soon to be released" Arcam AVR600 to drive a KEF Reference 5.1 AV set up. I asked him if he was sure, as I didn't think there'd be any way in this world that an integrated AV receiver would sound any good with a bunch of fairly demanding KEF Reference loudspeakers. The end result was amazing, and sounded better than most AV demos at any shows I've been to (save for the more recent Arcam ones). That's a manufacturer who knows what they're doing, who knows the limitations of their equipment, who are confident with their equipment. Sticking a one box hi-fi system with amplification based on a Nait on the end of £10k plus loudspeakers just deserves a slap round the face to wake them up. They've paid a fortune for the room they were in, to represent the brand, to show the paying visitors what the brand is all about, to educate them about the merits of home audio. If I was the boss of Naim, I'd sack the person who came up with that idea, and those who followed through on it thinking it was a good idea. Then I'd sack myself for letting them do it. Crazy.

(Rant over, I think!)

 

[SemiChronic]

I’m in the minimalists separate camp.

The one box high end thing is a bit Bose imo

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I’m in the minimalists separate camp.

The one box high end thing is a bit Bose imo

agree with you on seperates, except Bose isn’t really ‘high end’. AVM is. So too this naim nova. Bose is just about one box budget hifi, making people think they are getting more than they actually do with all the clean white spartan shops and marketing.

 

[SemiChronic]

I was meaning the “Lifestyle one box solution” thing

Everyone knows Bose is wank

 

[davidf]

I’m in the minimalists separate camp.

The one box high end thing is a bit Bose imo

One thing Bose have done right with their current stuff is attention to the set up process (admittedly more geared towards the type of person buying it). On screen, the system takes you through setting up each source one by one. Excellent. As for quality etc, that's another matter.

It can be done properly. AVM is proof of that, and it's good to see them producing modular products, which has great potential for the future in keeping the system up to date - it's now down to whether they use it to genuinely benefit the customers or not, as past modular products never really seem to take advantage of their main advantage over other products!

But unlike a one box Denon DM4*, attention needs to be paid to speaker matching, and in this respect it's the same as a high quality hi-fi system. To demonstrate to a new audience or potential customer, you choose something that suits the system's characteristics, disguises its flaws (if it has any), accentuates its strong points, and doesn't tax the amplification, so that the amplifier is in full control of the speaker at all times. I'm guessing this is why people are finding the PMC Twenty5 models work well, as they're not particularly demanding speakers. I wouldn't have thought the tonal balance would be ideal, and I wouldn't personally use amplification with a soft, warm bass with transmission line speakers, but it's all subjective.

 

[SemiChronic]

I’m guessing that the kind of person who buys the nova knows they’ve got spend a further 2-3k minimum on speakers.

 

[davidf]

I’m guessing that the kind of person who buys the nova knows they’ve got spend a further 2-3k minimum on speakers.

Well you generally wouldn't spend £3k on speakers if you had a Nait, so...

 

[SemiChronic]

What?? Everyone knows anything Naim demands thousands in speakers.

Thats a lot of corduroy trousers!

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Naim doesn’t demand thousands in speakers necessarily. I’d agree with you David, you generally want to put less decent speakers with something like this nova. I think possibly max £2k, given compromises of an all in one unit at this price, such compromises wouldn’t be the same with dedicated intergrateds or pre and power units which would perform better.

 

[SemiChronic]

Hopefully this box isn’t as empty as most naim stuff

 

[jjbomber]

Everyone knows Bose is wank

I've got Bose headphones, which makes me a ??????

 

[MUSICRAFT]

so that the amplifier is in full control of the speaker at all times.

So to cut to the chase to do the job PROPERLY and using as an example the LS50’s what amplifier would you recommend for them please?

 

[Deleted member 2457]

Everyone knows Bose is wank

I've got Bose headphones, which makes me a ??????

Banker?

 

[davidf]

so that the amplifier is in full control of the speaker at all times.

So to cut to the chase to do the job PROPERLY and using as an example the LS50’s what amplifier would you recommend for them please?

Oh, I don’t know, one of the Hegel amplifiers maybe...

There’s two ways to answer this. One is to list a single, ultimate amplifier that gets the job done (but very few people are going to buy such an amplifier with such a relatively budget pair of speakers), the other is to list amplifiers at various price points that work with the LS50s, rather than incapable ones that don’t allow the speakers to sound as they have been designed to sound.

 

[davidf]

Everyone knows Bose is wank

I've got Bose headphones, which makes me a ??????

Some of the Bose headphones (and small wireless speakers) are really good

 

[MUSICRAFT]

so that the amplifier is in full control of the speaker at all times.

So to cut to the chase to do the job PROPERLY and using as an example the LS50’s what amplifier would you recommend for them please?

Oh, I don’t know, one of the Hegel amplifiers maybe...

There’s two ways to answer this. One is to list a single, ultimate amplifier that gets the job done (but very few people are going to buy such an amplifier with such a relatively budget pair of speakers), the other is to list amplifiers at various price points that work with the LS50s, rather than incapable ones that don’t allow the speakers to sound as they have been designed to sound.

And now there’s two ways *biggrin* Anyway back to staying on track with your properly/in full control at all times. As an example using Hegel will the new H90 amplifier at a UK RRP of £1500 (at almost twice the price of the LS50’s) do the job properly/in full control of the speaker at all times? If it does this for the LS50’s then there’s no need for the H360 at a UK RRP of £4000 *smile*

 

[davidf]

And now there’s two ways *biggrin* Anyway back to staying on track with your properly/in full control at all times.

I wasn’t aware that I said there was only ‘one way’. The only ‘single option’ is to do the job properly, of which there are many options to achieve this.

As an example using Hegel will the new H90 amplifier at a UK RRP of £1500 (at almost twice the price of the LS50’s) do the job properly/in full control of the speaker at all times? If it does this for the LS50’s then there’s no need for the H360 at a UK RRP of £4000 *smile*

Will it? At this point, I don’t know, maybe it will. And your example may well be the case if the LS50s were the most demanding speakers available, but when you have the likes of the KEF Reference One speaker’s that demand more from an amplifier, amplifiers like the H360 are needed. I’m sure you already know that though.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

I have a good feeling that from your perspective the H90 will not do the job as well as the H360 regardless of speaker used *biggrin*

Anyway so to cut to the chase in your experience what amplifier will be in full control of the LS50’s at all times please? *smile*

 

[davidf]

I refuse to answer, as you’re already making assumptions about what I think anyway, and you’ll twist what I say to suit your agenda. I’m also bowing out before this conversation becomes nonsensical like the last one did.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

I refuse to answer, as you’re already making assumptions about what I think anyway, and you’ll twist what I say to suit your agenda. I’m also bowing out before this conversation becomes nonsensical like the last one did.

Nice to see you adopting again *biggrin*

Surely after 5-6 years of dealing and typing away extensively about the LS50’s you can tell us in your experience what amplifier will be in full control of the LS50’s? Or could it be that you haven’t experienced LS50’s being properly driven *smile* If so, the irony given your posts in this thread *biggrin*
Btw, i have a good feeling that from your perspective the H90 will not do the job as well as the H360 regardless of speaker used *biggrin*

 

[davidf]

Point proven.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Point proven.

So much for bowing out.

You’re very quick to talk about others dismissal. Over to you now. Self checkout.

 

[Andrewjvt]

so that the amplifier is in full control of the speaker at all times. 

So to cut to the chase to do the job PROPERLY and using as an example the LS50’s what amplifier would you recommend for them please?

Has Mr insecurity popped out for a visit?

Man, what happened to you as a child?

Has something made you extra grumpy today or this morning, perhaps?