What do these expensive digital streaming devices actually do?

ifor

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Hi,

I currently stream music to three systems around the house from Apple Lossless files in iTunes on my iMac. Each amp is fed by a mini-to-RCA left/right audio cable connected to an Airport Express. There is absolutely no doubt that the sound quality is hugely inferior in the main listening room when compared to listening to CDs played on my Cyrus CD8 SE through the same amp and speakers. This isn't hugely surprising since the DAC in the Cyrus CD8 SE has to be vastly superior than the DAC in the Airport Express.

I can do something about this in two of the setups because I can replace the analogue connection from the Airport Express with digital optical. In the main listening room it'll be done by using one of the optical digital inputs and DAC of my hardly-ever-used Sony MDS-JB920 MiniDisc player/recorder. Downstairs in the cinema room I can use a digital input on my Denon AV Amp/Receiver, but I don't have a digital input in the kitchen's Denon Mini system.

Logic tells me that in the main room, since a bit perfect digital signal will arrive at the DAC, any difference I might hear between CD and stream will be a direct comparison of the Cyrus DAC and Sony DAC. Am I right?

If so, and if there is a noticable difference, I might be tempted to get rid of the MiniDisc player and invest in a separate Cyrus DAC through which to play the Airport Express stream. I would then be comparing Cyrus DAC to Cyrus DAC.

So this brings me to my original question; what would be the point of investing in an expensive digital streamer e.g. Cyrus, Naim, Linn etc if all one needs to do is get a bit perfect digital signal to a high quality DAC?

I look forward to your comments.

Cheers

Ifor
 
A

Anonymous

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ifor said:
So this brings me to my original question; what would be the point of investing in an expensive digital streamer e.g. Cyrus, Naim, Linn etc if all one needs to do is get a bit perfect digital signal to a high quality DAC?
If you frame your question like that, there are not that many answers possible. Aesthetics and ergonomics come to mind, i.e. how it looks and how easy it is to use. Some digital streamers come with their own app so you can control them from your phone, others can be controlled with any dlna Digital Music Controller.

Stepping outside your frame: most streamers have a built-in DAC. I would expect Linn, Naim etc to have high-quality analog outs. Using such a device with an external DAC seems like a waste of money to me.

There is also the other shool of thought, that posits that a high-quality digital source will deliver a bitstream with less jitter than cheap equipment, and hence using a high-quality DAC with a low-quality streamer will not result in the optimal sound. I don't subscribe to that, because in my opinion a modern consumer-oriented DAC should always have a reclocking circuit to reduce jitter, or it isn't worth its salt.
 

spockfish

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Good question. Imho opinion it's all about the DAC and the digital signal. But as most modern DAC's (like my Rega) reclock the incoming signal to reduce jitter.... it just don't matter.

The problem is that most high end brands are perfectly capable of making analog and/or digital equipment, but they're not capable of writing good software. And as the biggest part in an audio streamer is software they buy that stuff. And then it's just a basic standard DLNA stack. And it really doesn't matter if you have the Linn or the Marantz or the Cyrus or any of them. So it only matters if you're *not* going to buy a DAC, because than the analogue part does matter.

But here's my biggest reason why you shouldn't buy any of these: the're way overrated, and the software stack is just plain bad with respect to usability. The cheapest squeezebox is in another league with respect to usability (and isn't a DLNA streamer but has it's own dedicated software stack). And if you can affort one just by a Zonos.

Play with the most expensive 'fill in any hifi brand here' streamer. And then with the Squeezebox. You will be surprised :)
 

amcluesent

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All S/PDIF links to the DAC have an element of jitter which some peeps say affect the SQ. The better the streamer, the lower the jitter (usually).

Plus the better streamers have features like -

24/96 Hi-rez handling

Gapless playback (amazing how some 'recommended' units play Dark...side....of....the....moon)

iOS/Android controller apps

Proper, synced multi-room

etc.
 

CnoEvil

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......divide opinions!

Rather than speculate, go and demo some. If you can hear no difference, when compared to cheaper solutions, return home happy in the knowledge that you have saved a lot of money. :)
 
T

the record spot

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Agree with the above, apart from unheralded stars like the M-Audio Transit, have a look at Roland's FA-66 DAC. It's a pro-audio thing, but it's been on my shortlist for a few years now. Might even get round to buying it one day!

5897980507p
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John Duncan

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They put everything in one box and make it look cool, and you pay more for nuances in improvement or a particular house sound (if that floats your boat). A squeezebox is a wonderful thing, and eg a Touch plugged into a proper DAC will be a good match for most of the streamers you're alluding to. But logitech make their own £1k streamer so there must be something in it...
 
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Anonymous

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If I had the system in the OP, I would sell the CD8SE and buy a used DAC-X, feeding the Airport Express into that via the toslink minijack output to toslink in on the DAC. DAC-X also has other inputs for a dedicated transport if you so wish, or DVD/Blu ray etc
 

paradiziac

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ifor said:
Logic tells me that in the main room, since a bit perfect digital signal will arrive at the DAC, any difference I might hear between CD and stream will be a direct comparison of the Cyrus DAC and Sony DAC. Am I right?

Not quite right. As others have said, it's not just bits, but the timing of those bits. It depends on the amount of jitter on the digital source. Some sources are more jittery than others.
 
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Anonymous

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The first thing these devices do is rapidly empty your wallet. There are of course a number around, Olive, Naim, Cyrus, Meridian etc. I used to have an Olive but fell out with it due to difficulty with accurate file tags, a faulty CD transport and a weird backup routine resulting in very large un zippable Linus based archives. So, nicely built,good spec but to be honest a nightmare to control/manage and I guess there';s the rub with these devices. Some have somewhat quirky interfaces. The Olive 4HD is nigh on £2500, for nearly that you can get the Naim Uniti which gets you a CD player and an amp thrown in and from what I have heard sounds great. In the end I went PC ripping route, NAS drive, Sonos/Peachtree amp and DAC and I have to say it works very well and cost a lot less than the Olive. My system including amp/speakers and evrything else was less than the Olive. All depends on how much one wants to get involved and how much you want life to be hassle free. I prefer my system as I have ultimate control over ripping, tag naming, back up etc. Okay its not a one button solution but I feel more in control. However, if I had the dosh I would get one of those Naim Uniti boxes as I thing they sound great. I'm not saying 1 box solutions are rubbish, clearly they have a place but I can't help thinking sometimes they are a tad pricey for whats in the box
 

acalex

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I will say mine since have been looking for this solution lately but discarded it (for now).

I agree with what have been said so far. Main advantages are

- all-in-one box (radio tuner, internet radio, streaming from NAS, PC, notebook) so you do not need two or more separate devices.

- apparently money wise the SQ is better (this is what I have been told, not heard myself). Meaning that if you get a Linn Klimax (and spend 15k eur) you will get a better sound quality than streaming from a cheaper streamer and adding an expensive high-end DAC. A dealer I contacted said he tried a LINN Klimax at a client's site and sounded muchhh better than an Maijik DS streamer connected through an expensive high-end Weiss DAC (15k eur the DAC only). Connections through devices are reduced by reducing the noise/problems these connections generate.

- Software included which allows you to play with your music library using an user friendly interface on iphone/ipad or dedicate controller. In this way you don't need to keep your pc on to listen to your music and you don't need to get up everythime to change song.

I think this sum up more or less the advantages of having a streamer. If your source is totally digital (like mine) I think it makes a lot of sens going the streamer route. But again, start with what you have and go up the ladder as Cno correctly suddgest. This is what I will do since I already have an USB DAC...so for now I will simply adding a cheap streamer (like SB), start playing and then I could be some testing myself with more expensive equipment! My 2 cents ;)
 

Overdose

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the record spot said:
Agree with the above, apart from unheralded stars like the M-Audio Transit, have a look at Roland's FA-66 DAC. It's a pro-audio thing, but it's been on my shortlist for a few years now. Might even get round to buying it one day!

Be aware that this is Firewire supplied and requires to be connected to a computer for power, also the 6 channels would seem excessive, as you will be paying extra for this capability. The UA 25EX would be a better choice, being cheaper for having less channels and more flexible for being USB bus powered. I have the UA 25 (not -ex version) and it works for me, but probably not what the OP needs.

Sonos or Squeezebox would perhaps appear to suit better, for multi-room purposes at least.
 

Juzzie Wuzzie

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My $0.02 would suggest, where possible, using optical digital to connect your AEX to suitable amplification. Realise you can't do it in every room - but as a starting point - that would be my upgrade. You can at least judge the difference to the analog path that you are currently using.

I considered the Squeezebox Touch, but being somewhat an Apple Fanboy (not the iPhone though) I like the integration afforded to me by AEX, Apple TV and my Mac with iTune / iPad. That said, I am currently debating a Naim Uniti (or SuperUniti) v. Cyrus Stream v. Cyrus amplified + Apple TV as an upgrade. Apart from the amplificiation, the all in one units would be based on a "do I really want to use my Apple product as a source" question. Ultimately, I'll probably set up Home Sharing and centralise all music on a server, to be accessed by me on iPad and the "boss" using her iPhone and sent to AEX or Apple TV.

Good planning usually leads to best results. So I'd play around with what you have before spending any money; and then put careful planning in what to spend it on, and what results you want. Generally, unless money is no object, there can be trade offs between audio quality and convenience.

Perhaps that was $0.05?
 

ifor

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Thanks to everyone for your advice, thoughts and suggestions; it's been educational. I should perhaps stress that whilst I do like the ability to stream the music to several rooms in the house, my priority is to be able to listen to high quality audio in the sitting room.

There are obviously some fans of Squeezebox out there, but I don't really see that it would deliver much to me. I can already stream to several rooms at once and the ability to control what's playing from the iMac with my iPhone or iPad can't really be faulted. As I see it, all the SquBx units would do is put a moderately better DAC, than those in the AirPort Express units, in each system and pull the music from the iMac rather than have it pushed from the iMac. Maybe there's more to it that. Maybe I'm missing somthing.

One more thing to add is that all the music is ripped from CDs. I don't do downloads.

From all your posts I think I would summarise the critical points as follows:

1) Quality of CD ripping

2) Low jitter on reading the audio files

3) Quality of DAC

This what I've done since my last post.

1) I replaced the analogue cables from two of the ApEx units with optical digital cable to feed the DACs in Sony MD player and Denon AV receiver. This, by bypassing the ApEx DACs, gave a huge improvement in sound quality, but when compared to the CD played by the Cyrus it was still very disappointing

2) I dowloaded Rip and SongBook, both of which work with AccurateRip, and ripped a couple of CDs afresh. This gave another noticeable improvement over CDs ripped by iTunes, but I still wasn't happy.

3) After a sudden flash of inspiration, I turned off Sound Check and Sound Enhancer in iTunes preferences. Again there was another noticeable improvement.

It's close, but still not close enough. I have just added an external DAC to my shopping list, along with the Spendor A5s I intend to get at some stage. Which DAC? A Cyrus would start me along the route of building a one brand system. One day I might even end up with Cyrus Stream XP (hopefully Cyrus will add support for Apple Lossless at some stage). I'm not ready to ditch the CD player just yet; I want the music to sound at least as good first. I'm also tempted by the Naim kit, but it would be one hell of an outlay that might not get past "administration".
 

Crocodile

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John Duncan said:
http://www.logitech.com/en-us/speakers-audio/wireless-music-systems/devices/7934
Must be some old stock they've found somewhere. It's been unavailable on both sides of the pond for some time now & no sign of it on the UK site. The VFD displays went EOL which is what prompted the launch of the Touch to replace the SB3/Classic (used the same display).
 

The_Lhc

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John Duncan said:
OK, but they must've thought it was a good idea at the time... :)

The Transporter (I assume that's what you're referring to, I haven't bothered looking) wasn't Logitech's idea, Slim Devices had already developed it when Logitech bought them out.
 

paradiziac

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ifor said:
From all your posts I think I would summarise the critical points as follows:

1) Quality of CD ripping

2) Low jitter on reading the audio files

3) Quality of DAC

About right, especially 2) and 3).

The airport express digital out is quite jittery, though the better the DAC, the better the rejection of incoming jitter.

That said, if you want comparable sound to the Cyrus CD8 SE CD player from a file-based set-up, my money would be on the airport express ending up as being the weak link in the chain. YMMV...
 

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