Reijer said:
You have a nice shortlist. Nobody can tell you which amp will fit you, I'm sure you will find out very quickly on a demo. ATB
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When should you upgrade your hi-fi? How to control ‘upgradeitis’
You have a nice shortlist. Nobody can tell you which amp will fit you, I'm sure you will find out very quickly on a demo. ATB
Reijer said:
What sounds best to John it may sound horrible to Michael. Everyone halucinates differently.
IMO the advice you should seek is which amplifier will drive your speakers best for your budget. Once you get few adequate suggestions, you go out and audition if it makes you feel better.
Vladimir said:
At this price levels a lot of amplifiers will be operating close to their limits. The speakers are quite hard to drive and may not be at their best with some models that do not deliver their power adequately into the load they present.
There are some other factors too, but in this case it mostly depends on you, if you want the best performance you can get, you need to try a few amplifiers playing the kind of music you want to listen to in the way you want to listen to it.
If your requirements are not too complex you may well find many of the amplifiers mentioned above to be absolutely fine with little to choose between them, but if your requirements ask more of the amplifier, some may not be capable of giving you what you want.
In an ideal world a dealer would advise, these days you may need to do a little more for yourself.
Native_bon
Well-known member
Boy your really taking things personal. Everyone is free to say what they think.. Its up to the individaul to make up there own mind when they go for a demo. If people react to your statements the same way you react to their statements am sure you will not like that. Its only Hifi dude, much worse things go on in life.hifikrazy said:
Esra
Well-known member
@ Esra.
It's a fine amp but is old and it's begins to wear. The relais to the speaker-out are probably worn. When I start the amp my monitors play's an soft plof. It got only four RCA in's and no digital inputs. It delivers 20 watts of continuous power. I have to push it to get the full sound out of my monitors. I've tested that with my father who have some organ cd's with very low noises from the pedal's (32' wooden organ pipes) and some popular music from me.
And, above all, it's borrowed.
To all the others of this topic:
I know I have to listen to determine which amp fits my musical needs, aside from my budget. There are probebly some combinations that are a no-go. That's most of the time the easy part to discover. I want to use the experience of the forum-users to narrow my list down or open my eyes (ears
) and look further then NAD 365BEE, Arcam FMJ A19 and Rotel RA-12. Roksan is added to my listening-list. I want to take some time to listen and sort out which amp fits my needs. Maybe I should stretch my budget, but if I could buy an amplifier with which I'm going to experience a lot of fun, so be it.
And some comments are hilarious to read .....
It's a fine amp but is old and it's begins to wear. The relais to the speaker-out are probably worn. When I start the amp my monitors play's an soft plof. It got only four RCA in's and no digital inputs. It delivers 20 watts of continuous power. I have to push it to get the full sound out of my monitors. I've tested that with my father who have some organ cd's with very low noises from the pedal's (32' wooden organ pipes) and some popular music from me.
And, above all, it's borrowed.
To all the others of this topic:
I know I have to listen to determine which amp fits my musical needs, aside from my budget. There are probebly some combinations that are a no-go. That's most of the time the easy part to discover. I want to use the experience of the forum-users to narrow my list down or open my eyes (ears
) and look further then NAD 365BEE, Arcam FMJ A19 and Rotel RA-12. Roksan is added to my listening-list. I want to take some time to listen and sort out which amp fits my needs. Maybe I should stretch my budget, but if I could buy an amplifier with which I'm going to experience a lot of fun, so be it.And some comments are hilarious to read .....
TrevC
Well-known member
davedotco said:
These days the most important part of an amplifiers spec, the power output, is hardly mentioned. It isn't the price of an amplifier that tells you whether it'll be a good match with a pair of speakers, it's mostly that. The price is irrelevant when you consider that the cheapest budget amplifier you can think of will have a flatter frequency response and lower distortion figures than the finest loudspeakers on the planet. it's low powered amplifiers that operate near their limits when driving speakers, the budget Behringer 300 watter will certainly not be.
Esra
Well-known member
All mentioned amps should do it just fine. Depending on your taste you have the choice.You can always add a power amp to pre outs later if you find there is need for more but imo. I don´t expect so.Every speaker do profit from a better(power/current etc.) amp though,some more some less.If possible try also to demo a Peachtree amp with integrated Dac.
Electro
Well-known member
Vladimir said:
This has always been very puzzling to me :? I can understand the reasons behind level matching but why would you compare two amplifiers that you were testing at only one volume level ?
Surely it would be best to test both amps from their lowest output to the point of clipping and everything in between and log the differences .
It is quite possible that two different amps could sound very similar at low levels but markedly different at higher levels playing music that has large complex transients and or high bass output .
When I compare two amps I compare them at all different levels with many different types of music , my choice is then made on an aggregate of the results .
Surely level matching when comparing amps is like trying to compare two beautiful landscapes through a keyhole when you could just open the door and see the whole vista
BigH
Well-known member
Electro said:Vladimir said:
This has always been very puzzling to me :? I can understand the reasons behind level matching but why would you compare two amplifiers that you were testing at only one volume level ?
Surely it would be best to test both amps from their lowest output to the point of clipping and everything in between and log the differences .
It is quite possible that two different amps could sound very similar at low levels but markedly different at higher levels playing music that has large complex transients and or high bass output .
When I compare two amps I compare them at all different levels with many different types of music , my choice is then made on an aggregate of the results .
Surely level matching when comparing amps is like trying to compare two beautiful landscapes through a keyhole when you could just open the door and see the whole vista
I think he means match the level so its the same for both amps. Yes I agree try at different volumes. I found most amp/speakers have a sweet spot, does that match your normal listening levels? Some amps maybe better driving your spaekers at low levels.
Electro said:
Here are few tips I picked up along my audiophile journey how to break through the cheats and manipulations of manufacturers. The technically more erudite members please correct if I have something wrong in the list.
The most important specification in an amplifier:
- power output (continuous W RMS in 8 ohms 20Hz-20kHz at less than 1% distortion, both channels driven)
- minimum speaker impedance capability (if something like 2 ohms power rating is shown but in IHF or musical power, not RMS, they are manipulating)
- pre and power gain (if it is bigger than the amplifier you are comparing it to, it will sound better, louder, lively, clear, transparent, present)
- input sensitivity (if it is lower than the amplifier you are comparing it to, it will sound better, louder, lively, clear, transparent, present)
Human hearing is not linear and to us at lower levels louder is better, clearer, lively, transparent, powerfull. Manufacturers are quite aware of this fact and cheat with added loudness gains instead of real amplification. The only real power your amp has is in the continuous W RMS in 8 ohms 20Hz-20kHz at less than 1% distortion, both channels driven.
Only way around this is to level match two amplifiers and compare them at the same loudness +/-0.1dB, before clipping. You can do multiple tests at different loudness levels, as long as you have them level matched with a microphone recording the output, not using the scale on the volume knob.
Considering most speakers today are under 90dB, it feels much better when the amp pushes the speaker much earlier in the volume knob. We all have to admit that an amplifier that needs to be turned further on the volume knob feels emasculating. What is actually better is when the amp can be turned up all the way in without having it stressed (distortion, noise). Always good to have the speakers bottoming out on you before the amplifier does. But also no one wants to feel like a eunuch when he grabs the boob knob.
Simple example with my amp (so others don't feel attacked). The Roksan Kandy K2 has more power than the more expensive Caspian M2. Manufacturer says the topology is very similar and they share a lot of parts, so build quality is more or less the same. Biggest difference in architecture being the Caspian has balanced XLR outputs and unlike the MOSFET Kandy, it is a bipolar topology. So why is it exactly double the price?
Dealers and buyers will tell you the Caspian sounds more powerfull, bigger, more in control, more detailed and it justifies the added expense. Lets ignore the dealers since they have much bigger markup for selling the Caspian, focus on the buyer.
Roksan Kandy K2 BT:
Line level input sensitivity: 500mV
Total gain from pre and power: 37.3dB
Roksan Caspian M2:
Line level input sensitivity: 240mV
Total gain from pre and power: 40dB
So the Caspian is more sensitive and has significant 3dB loudness gain ahead of the Kandy. If you think 3dB is insignificant, bare in mind it takes double the power from the amp to make a speaker 3dB louder. We can hear very well the 3dB boost considering 6dB sounds twice as loud to our hearing. Just 1dB advantage in loudness when comparing amps, translates to better sound.
Are these real amplification advantages? No, this is voicing to appeal to a consumer with inneficient speakers in a small room, with listening habbits that never surpass the 10 o'clock mark on the volume knob (anything above is vulgar).
This is my theory. Anyone with an EE degree to provide feedback if it makes sense?
Would a secondhand NAIM Supernait be een good match for my system?
http://www.hifi.nl/tweedehands/tekoop/170885/Naim-Supernait.html
http://www.hifi.nl/tweedehands/tekoop/170885/Naim-Supernait.html
I use a NAD D3020 with my 685 S2's.
I listen in a medium sized study with wooden floors. I listen at very reasonable levels, never going that loud really. The D3020 does an excellent job with fullsome bass, good pace and fairly 'sweet' upper reaches. I'm not too picky but to my ears it works well. My old Aura amp is rated at 66W per channel and can't say it is doing any better with the speakers purely because it has more rated power. If you listen at insane volumes I guess it will matter more.
My AV amp Yamaha RX-A1010 is hooked up to 685 (the originals) in another room and even at 100wpc the NAD sounds better I believe (but this is AV vs. Stereo amps)...
I listen in a medium sized study with wooden floors. I listen at very reasonable levels, never going that loud really. The D3020 does an excellent job with fullsome bass, good pace and fairly 'sweet' upper reaches. I'm not too picky but to my ears it works well. My old Aura amp is rated at 66W per channel and can't say it is doing any better with the speakers purely because it has more rated power. If you listen at insane volumes I guess it will matter more.
My AV amp Yamaha RX-A1010 is hooked up to 685 (the originals) in another room and even at 100wpc the NAD sounds better I believe (but this is AV vs. Stereo amps)...
And TEAC it is...
After listening to amp's of Audio Analogue Cresendo, NAD C326BEE, Rotel RA-12, Arcam FMJ A19, Rega Brio and Peachtree 65SE, the TEAC AI-501DA was in our opinion the best.
I was surprised that Rotel and Arcam were the first to fall of our shortlist. At the end, it was between Audio Analogue, Rega and TEAC. Audio Analogue was to thin and bright, Rega to easy-listening and TEAC hit the sonic sweetspot. At low and high volumes we could hear all the details and get the full soundspectrum in our faces.
After listening to amp's of Audio Analogue Cresendo, NAD C326BEE, Rotel RA-12, Arcam FMJ A19, Rega Brio and Peachtree 65SE, the TEAC AI-501DA was in our opinion the best.
I was surprised that Rotel and Arcam were the first to fall of our shortlist. At the end, it was between Audio Analogue, Rega and TEAC. Audio Analogue was to thin and bright, Rega to easy-listening and TEAC hit the sonic sweetspot. At low and high volumes we could hear all the details and get the full soundspectrum in our faces.
rainsoothe
Well-known member
nopiano
Well-known member
Great choice, I am sure.
TEAC has a great heritage and I am only sorry they are not better represented in the UK.
TEAC has a great heritage and I am only sorry they are not better represented in the UK.
When my wife and I were auditing the amplifiers, I noticed that the 5 and 4 stars amps were dropped first by us.
What HiFi applauded the combiantie B&W 685 s2 with Arcam FMJ A19 and I looked forward to it, but it was disappointing. The store owner was also negatively surprised. Only the Rega Brio remained until the last in the race.
In the first store, after a knockout competition between Audio Analogue Crescendo, NAD C326BEE, Rotel Ra12 and Peacthree 65se, the Cresendo was the overall winner for us.
In the car, on the way to the second store, I read the review of Cresendo and was amazed at what I read. The opinion in the review, I did not recognize what I've heard. Is there such a big difference between British and Dutch 'ears'?
What struck me more, not just that day but overall, is that What Hifi rarely describes what equipment is used during the review. If I compare it to the Dutch site www.hifi.nl or German www.audio.de I get the impression that What Hifi is more judgmental and the other sites mentioned more acting and technical background. With a more open story you're have a lot more as a viewfinder. A judgment on an amplifier in itself does not have as much value when the other equipment used in the review is not mentioned. You take, in this case, the amplifier from its context and then the judgement is (IMHO) worthless.
What can What HiFi do about this?
What HiFi applauded the combiantie B&W 685 s2 with Arcam FMJ A19 and I looked forward to it, but it was disappointing. The store owner was also negatively surprised. Only the Rega Brio remained until the last in the race.
In the first store, after a knockout competition between Audio Analogue Crescendo, NAD C326BEE, Rotel Ra12 and Peacthree 65se, the Cresendo was the overall winner for us.
In the car, on the way to the second store, I read the review of Cresendo and was amazed at what I read. The opinion in the review, I did not recognize what I've heard. Is there such a big difference between British and Dutch 'ears'?
What struck me more, not just that day but overall, is that What Hifi rarely describes what equipment is used during the review. If I compare it to the Dutch site www.hifi.nl or German www.audio.de I get the impression that What Hifi is more judgmental and the other sites mentioned more acting and technical background. With a more open story you're have a lot more as a viewfinder. A judgment on an amplifier in itself does not have as much value when the other equipment used in the review is not mentioned. You take, in this case, the amplifier from its context and then the judgement is (IMHO) worthless.
What can What HiFi do about this?
Reijer said:
Scroll down on this link and you will see the testing rooms and systems. They also sometimes specifically mention the reference kit in their reviews.
http://www.whathifi.com/news/about-us
I'm not sure how up to date this is and whether they also test cheaper equipment with other similarly priced kit. i.e. I assume that they don't just test an entry level amp by trying to run the ATC SCM50s.
New TEAC installed. More sound, more depth, more detail, more high, better experience. Very happy with this investment. IMHO (much) better than Rotel, NAD, Rotel, Rega brio etc. I'm a happy man!
Congratulation for you new amp Reijer.
You probably did only and always correct way in comparing by yourself.
About 4 and 5 stars. This is absolutely normal that some persons will not fall for the what hifi 4 or 5 stars recommended gear. Because even what hifi, is not able to be YOU. Your rooms conditions and music tastes are generally not the tastes of another dude.
Although, please don't forget that what hifi is a magazine, that can only exist if he's selling magazines, and free publicity space. I know NO MAGAZINES, today, that can live without publicity, and to make a realistic review on a bad product will automatically mean => No publicity in your magazine anymore and much more problems to becoming the gear of this brand of reviewing it. And, sometimes it is really transparent to see how bad products, are reviewed by whathifi for beeing so awesome. Everybody with own experience could see through.
In germany, 95% of hifi enthusiasts are not believing the hifi press anymore. And I'm always fascinated how easy it seems to be in the english part of the world, to have some credibility when you are a magazine or internet portal (6 moons).
Another useful advice of me : Internet is starting to loose his usefulness for making yourself an opinion of a product. Because you can pay the navigator companies to make bad reviews difficult to find. I experienced that with some mammoth brands like ProAc or Accuphase. If it's positive, it will stay visible, if it's bad, you will have to know on which website you are searching the review and entering the exact name and type of the product. Who does that ?
You probably did only and always correct way in comparing by yourself.
About 4 and 5 stars. This is absolutely normal that some persons will not fall for the what hifi 4 or 5 stars recommended gear. Because even what hifi, is not able to be YOU. Your rooms conditions and music tastes are generally not the tastes of another dude.
Although, please don't forget that what hifi is a magazine, that can only exist if he's selling magazines, and free publicity space. I know NO MAGAZINES, today, that can live without publicity, and to make a realistic review on a bad product will automatically mean => No publicity in your magazine anymore and much more problems to becoming the gear of this brand of reviewing it. And, sometimes it is really transparent to see how bad products, are reviewed by whathifi for beeing so awesome. Everybody with own experience could see through.
In germany, 95% of hifi enthusiasts are not believing the hifi press anymore. And I'm always fascinated how easy it seems to be in the english part of the world, to have some credibility when you are a magazine or internet portal (6 moons).
Another useful advice of me : Internet is starting to loose his usefulness for making yourself an opinion of a product. Because you can pay the navigator companies to make bad reviews difficult to find. I experienced that with some mammoth brands like ProAc or Accuphase. If it's positive, it will stay visible, if it's bad, you will have to know on which website you are searching the review and entering the exact name and type of the product. Who does that ?
BigH
Well-known member
ID. said:
I think they do. I remember the Arcam A19 did not get on well with them and they switched to Kef LS50s which were much better. All sounds a bit hit and miss.
Over the last couple of weeks I was on the same quest and paired the new B&W 685 S2's with Arcam's A19 and the 5i by Naim, at home. Although my inexperienced ears were immediately drawn to the incredible detail of the A19 (yes, you want to hear the music how it was intended, don't you?) and impressed with the -kind of- unpredictable agile course Naim took (headstrong in what it wants to 'show' you), it was the C356BEE by NAD that took the stage with precision, balance, enormous confidence and stunning impact; from the very first notes of Tracey Thorn's 'It's All True' through Howard Shore's 'Foundations of Stone' to 'Somebody to Die For' by Hurts.
The demo has has been returned. The brand new one has just started to warm up.
The demo has has been returned. The brand new one has just started to warm up.
BigH
Well-known member
ID. said:
I think they do. I remember the Arcam A19 did not get on well with them and they switched to Kef LS50s which were much better. All sounds a bit hit and miss.
"After letting it run in as per usual over a few nights, we connected the A19 to our reference kit, which includes a Naim NDS streamer and ATC SCM50 speakers. A £6250 streamer and £8,000-odd pair of speakers are probably overkill for a £650 amplifier, but we do find them to form the most revealing of systems."
Read more at http://www.whathifi.com/arcam/fmj-a19/review#6iAgS5EWgvll0vES.99
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