USB cable to DAC confusion over sound quality.

[Green Bow]

Dear What Hi-Fi folk,

I recently bought a Furutech Fomula 2 after reading this review. http://www.whathifi.com/furutech/formula-2/review

There isn't a great detail of specific detail about this cable mentioned. However it does say it bests the Wireworld cable mentioned in it. There is great praise of the Wireworld cable by What Hi-Fi.

Anyway my confusion is that I really don't really hear any improvement over a stock cable. I think the issue is my DAC and headphones are quite mediocre. The DAC is a Meridian Explorer and the headphones are Grado SR225e. Whereas What Hi-Fi reviewed the cable with an Audiolab M-DAC, a much better DAC. Therefor they would have a larger playing field of sound quality to examine with.

What bothers me is that many people say that it makes no difference. You can get into some pretty heated discussion about it.

To be fair I have given the cable about 40 hours run in time. Still there is very little at all if any improvement. I think sometimes the Furutech is a fraction fuller, frationally rounder, and fractionally crisper. It sometimes feels like it transports me with the music just a touch more. Or pins my ears back just a bit more.

Conclusion: Anyway the issue is that I like What Hi-Fi's opinion on kit, and have never gone wrong with it. Yet I can't clearly or categorically say I hear a change with this expensive cable. However according to What Hi-Fi I should. My source is FLAC. My music is completely varied. Could it be that my equipment is just not good enough to pick a change? Or is it that What Hi-Fi have been drawn into a potential myth about USB cables? I truly understand and hear the difference with analogue speaker cables. Yet I can't put my finger on it with this digital one.

 

[spiny norman]

 

[hammill]

OP, Nothing wrong with your ears or equipment. Unfortunately What HiFi prints a lot of nonsense about cables. - I too foolishly believed the magazine when it recommended an expensive HDMI cable that made no differance whatsoever. Hopefully you can return the cable and join the army of cable sceptics.

 

[chebby]

You need to give the cable another few months to 'burn-in' properly.

 

[MajorFubar]

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/usb-cable-sound-what-price

All been said before. Frequently. In short there are people who think different USB cables affect the sound from their digital sources without properly thinking through what the implication of that would be for other applications of USB data transmission. (Don't mention printers it starts a war.) It's marketing BS to snare gullible people with deep pockets and I am ashamed that WHF, whose opinions I long trusted for decades, give it credence.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

You need to give the cable another few months to 'burn-in' properly.

I would ask what is the recommended temp to burn them. But I won't.

 

[ellisdj]

I think to get better sound quality from the explorer I would look at external power for it.

Its takes its 5v power via usb from the computer - this is not clean power at all. There are many different 5v products out there - linear power supplies and battery power supplies - the Explorer limitation is that it takes the power via the usb cable and not an additonal 2.1 / 2.5mm barrell connector like a lot of these types of products.

So you would need an adaptor type cable made up which is very easy to do. You will then have to modify the usb plugs on the cable from the computer to the dac at either the dac or computer end or both

Its very technical this on to do

You will need to put electrical tape over the 5V + tab on the inside of the usb connector on the cable from the computer to the dac to stop the power from the computer powering the dac as well as the external power supply

This is all very easy to do and sounds a lot harder than it is. Teradack sell decent power supplies for the money on ebay but there is a market full of these type of products out there. A lot of the companies would make you the adaptor cable as well if you ask.

 

[ellisdj]

Just found someone doing exactly this on this forum

I havent read what they think of it but there might be some useful info here for you

 

[chebby]

You need to give the cable another few months to 'burn-in' properly.

I would ask what is the recommended temp to burn them. But I won't.

I thought I was being sarcastic. The problem is that suggesting obviously outrageous things like a few months of cable 'burn-in' (!) can be read as serious by some people.

 

[MajorFubar]

I've heard that lopping off the connectors and resoldering them on the opposite ends of the cable (so in effect turning the cable round) makes massive differences too.

(apologies to the OP; in-joke.)

 

[The_Lhc]

Just found someone doing exactly this on this forum

I havent read what they think of it but there might be some useful info here for you

If it comes to the conclusion there are clearly audible differences then I'd question the usefulness of it. But then again I'm not gullible.

I’m 100% confident when they drew-up the USB tx/rx protocols and standards in 1990s, if they thought there was a genuine risk that data could get corrupted because the same cable carries power to the receiving device, they put controls in place to circumvent it. If there was any real truth in it, the operation of a million and one other usb-powered devices like mice, keyboards, trackpads and memory sticks would also be compromised.

There was not even the tiniest hint that it could at all be a problem until the boutique hifi accessory manufacturers enlightened us. Happy for the OP to read into that what he will.

I think in this case it's not a question of whether the data is being affected, but more the issue of noise being injected into the analogue output stages, which is probably a legitimate consideration, although how much difference this might make is another question.

 

[Green Bow]

Thank you for you replies. To be honest I didn't expect any. I have read everything you have all said. Also I have read every link that has been suggested in these replies.

Still no clearer unfortuantely as I think the case will always be. I guess the best thing to do is allow my cable some more running-in time. Then if not convinced, just return it. I can't help thinking there is just a little more with this supposed 'audio quality' cable. If I could be concretely sure even for a small amount, I would keep it. Namely because I don't inten to upgrade the DAC for a while.

@spiney norman. Great pic and caption.

@major fubar, Hmm yes I think most USB transfers like copying documents, are error checked. If the printer does or not, I do not know.

@ellisdj thanks for that link. I have wondered about that myself. I would definitely be up for modding a stock cable if I thought it would help. Someone onece suggested using two USB ports into one for more current. However I saw no change with that. Nice to have an ME link to read through though.

Even the posts that say audio quality USB cables are a waste of money are a good read. For presenting both sides of the opinion anyway.

What bugs me is that there is no definitive paper on this. You really would think there would be. However I am sure I should try a quality USB cable on a better DAC and headphones. Maybe for now the margin is too narrow, if there is truth in it after all.

 

[MajorFubar]

Edited...possible misunderstanding.

 

[MajorFubar]

I've only ever really encountered that with internal sound cards, never external, but I'll agree that's a different viewpoint to the view that different USB cables 'sound' different, so apologies to Ellis if I was unduly dismissive. I have edited my reply.

 

[MajorFubar]

What bugs me is that there is no definitive paper on this. You really would think there would be. However I am sure I should use a quality USB cable on a better DAC and headphones. Maybe for now the margin is too narrow, if there is truth in it after all.

Those of us who don't 'believe' have been asking for the same for years, but away from the realms of boutique HiFi snakeoil merchants, you don't find anyone else making such daft claims about the sound of different digital cables, so it hasn't happened, yet, to my knowledge.

 

[Green Bow]

What bugs me is that there is no definitive paper on this. You really would think there would be. However I am sure I should use a quality USB cable on a better DAC and headphones. Maybe for now the margin is too narrow, if there is truth in it after all.

Those of us who don't 'believe' have been asking for the same for years, but away from the realms of boutique HiFi snakeoil merchants, you don't find anyone else making such daft claims about the sound of different digital cables, so it hasn't happened, yet, to my knowledge.

Yeh I had to edit that post to say I should try an audio quality cable with better kit. Previously it read I should use. I had to edit it because it appeared I was condoning audio qulaity USB cables, whereas I am not. I didn't intend to mislead, it as just an error made while typing out in one go.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

You need to give the cable another few months to 'burn-in' properly.

I would ask what is the recommended temp to burn them. But I won't.

I believe in fairies, ufo's, ghosts & 65degC cable burn-in (changing direction each day for the full guarantee/returns period)

I thought I was being sarcastic. The problem is that suggesting obviously outrageous things like a few months of cable 'burn-in' (!) can be read as serious by some people.

 

[ellisdj]

To the OP the suggestion is using seperate usb cables is not to up the power usb can supply 1amp I think most 5v stuff will be nowhere near that

2 seperate cables is to seperate power from data this is an easy cable knock up to test out

But your still using the noisey power from the pc.

To major the Explorer is a sound card really there is no difference other than a pc sound card will use 12v power as well.

Usp meridian apodising

 

[chebby]

You need to give the cable another few months to 'burn-in' properly.

I would ask what is the recommended temp to burn them. But I won't.

I thought I was being sarcastic. The problem is that suggesting obviously outrageous things like a few months of cable 'burn-in' (!) can be read as serious by some people.

I believe in fairies, ufo's, ghosts & 65degC cable burn-in (changing direction each day for the full guarantee/returns period)

Were they buried under a stone in Avebury at dawn on the summer solstice and dug up exactly a year later?

 

[ellisdj]

Look at the Furtech USB Cable design - its a cheap usb cable really - its designed with only a 3 layer screen which is dog turd basic in all honesty.

All its designed to do is reflect some high freq noise - but at that price it will only work in a certain freq range because it will be a basic copper foil, copper braid and maybe another layer of foil.

This is a naff screen - probably only really working 1 - 3 Ghz Range nothing Megahz or very high Ghz.

Then you have the problem of internal noise - nothing to absorb it and you have cable Furutech using Polyethylene or simialr material for dielectic which is high dielctic constant and not preferable and no screen in the plugs and the data and power are likely not seperated or individually screened from each other.

However this is not the issue I dont think with the op not hearing the change in SQ.

I bet in the What HiFI review the kit they using it with has proper power supplies and is not powered from the pc via the usb cable. That is a killer to SQ - its not the dac quality its the power supply.

Audio is 80% power supply in terms of SQ - the same Sabre Dac is in loads of kit - the best sounding ones will have the best power supplies and lowest noise clocks

 

[RobinKidderminster]

I can't comment on the aforementioned dog-turd cable except to ask if its colour is brown. However I would generally avoid anything 240v from eBay/China. Despite very interesting explainations regarding a separate power supply I would have hoped that a half decent component like this would have a separate power supply if the manufacturer considered it important. Hopefully u will report back after you make the changes.

 

[ellisdj]

I didnt say the cable was turd - I said the screen is likely basic I used "dog turd" basic saying as its a pub type term

the other things are reasons I wouldnt buy it that is all

Power supply Its important - if not all companies would use the 5V USB bus - they do this to save money and keep cost down.

You will never see a high end product use computer 5V power - Never

Power Supply quality is why av products are not as good as the hifi counter parts - for example the equivalent Marantz CD Player and Blu Ray Player technically require the same power 12v and 5v.

In the CD Player they use Torodial based Linear Supply in the Blu Ray Player nasting Switching supply - why?

In my eyes So you might buy the CD Player as well because it sounds better than its av equivalent - even though the blu ray has a dedicated Analogue board?

 

[RobinKidderminster]

I didnt say the cable was turd - I said the screen is likely basic I used "dog turd" basic saying as its a pub type term

the other things are reasons I wouldnt buy it that is all

Power supply Its important - if not all companies would use the 5V USB bus - they do this to save money and keep cost down.

You will never see a high end product use computer 5V power - Never

Power Supply quality is why av products are not as good as the hifi counter parts - for example the equivalent Marantz CD Player and Blu Ray Player technically require the same power 12v and 5v.

In the CD Player they use Torodial based Linear Supply in the Blu Ray Player nasting Switching supply - why?

In my eyes So you might buy the CD Player as well because it sounds better than its av equivalent - even though the blu ray has a dedicated Analogue board?

Sorry I don't go to the pub.

The OP already has the DAC so is looking for improvements so I have no idea if a separate power supply would help. I hope its something he may try for few pounds and let us know.

I would think this DAC is fairly 'high end' but that's just relative I guess.

HiFi better than AV because of power supply? An interesting supposition.

I hope your advice is taken onboard and we learn the results.

 

[ellisdj]

The Explorer is not a high end dac - its Meridians Equivalent of plug and play device like the Audioquest Dragonfly or the M2Tech HiFace 2.

 

[abacus]

All except USB3 has limited current capabilities which are normally exceeded with the better quality DACs etc, hence the reason for a separate power supply. (If you look at quite a few portable HDD you will find they have 2 USB A plugs into 1 USB B plug thus doubling the current available.

A good DAC will also use asynchronous USB, meaning the DAC has full control over the signal.

The argument as to which type of power supply is best for audio has been going on for years, however in reality if a power supply is designed correctly for the job in hand, it should not affect the sound. (As always cost will enter into it)

Bill