Upgrade...streamer or Cds....help please.

[the record spot]

No Sansui reprise then?

No, that went mate - the Protection circuit kicked in during the summer and that was it. I always said it'd go to the tip and it did. Actually, it went to the local Recycling Centre and some of the local charities check out the electronics - I hope they got somone who could open up the lid and take a look inside to do a hopefully easy fix.

For me though, it just wasn't worth another £50 to get it repaired and as I needed something more flexible, it was probably on its last legs anyway. Great amp though, but the Onkyo's as good in fairness.

 

[The_Lhc]

Just to add another small point I like to have a CD! Nice to have in the hands, lyrics etc etc.

You'll still be doing that as you'll be buying CDs and ripping them to lossless.

 

[plastic penguin]

Learning a lot from this forum.

Just to add another small point I like to have a CD! Nice to have in the hands, lyrics etc etc.

One thing I am taking away is that its maybe the HiFi retailers who emphasise how much difference there is between the sound quality in the different price brackets.

Another option is that I sit tight. My system is OK. I can save more cash up and this time next year the Streamers will be more widely used and probably cheaper as more products.

Firstly you can paste wallpaper covers (and lyrics), so that shouldn't pose any probs.

Going back to my earlier comments you need to listen to the Olive: The Olive is an all-in-one jobbie. You rip, stream and store or you can use it as a CDP for playback purposes. Also give the Logitec a whirl too.

I would find one or two different dealers and listen to separates and all-in-ones and decide for yourself which one has the 'wow' factor.

 

[Womaz]

If I am still buying Cds and ripping them, I presume I would not gain any additional sound quality, but just have the convenience of the storage and accessibility.

The option of sitting tight for a year would probably make sense too.

I have ordered a back issue of the What Hif mag guide to streaming to see if I get a better understanding.

 

[plastic penguin]

If I am still buying Cds and ripping them, I presume I would not gain any additional sound quality, but just have the convenience of the storage and accessibility.

The option of sitting tight for a year would probably make sense too.

I have ordered a back issue of the What Hif mag guide to streaming to see if I get a better understanding.

No significant increase in SQ. Would like to emphasise this is my personal opinion: The experience wasn't the 'smokin' gun' I'd initally expected. They were good but didn't offer enough of SQ.

Hi-fi is immensely subjective so a audition is a must.

Research and study if fine but nothing beats the experience of putting yours to the test. If a dealer is worth their sorts they should cut thru the technical aspects and explain what happens and why, in simple language.

 

[The_Lhc]

If I am still buying Cds and ripping them, I presume I would not gain any additional sound quality,

In theory you may as a PC can rip a CD perfectly, so you don't have any of the error-correction associated with a CD player. Of course whether you can tell the difference is a different matter...

 

[Anonymous]

If I am still buying Cds and ripping them, I presume I would not gain any additional sound quality, but just have the convenience of the storage and accessibility.

That logic doesn't follow. The end sound quality is dependent on a number of factors, including how good the transport or streamer is in delivering the 1s and 0s correctly and in a timely fashion (jitter free), and how good the DAC is in converting the digital stream to analgue audio. The latter part is, as PP points out, highly subjective. I would suspect you'd get a good increase in sound quality by using your existing CD player with a much better DAC. You could then use your new DAC with a streamer as or when you decide to get one.

 

[BenLaw]

I have had my system around 9 years now.

Arcam Diva A85 AMP

Arcam Diva CD82

Quad 22L speakers

Black Rhodium symphony interconnect

Black Rodium AST speaker cable bi wired

Arcam Ir DOCK FOR I pod

I am looking to spend around 2.5k to replace the existing kit.

I thought that by spending this amount that with the improvement in technology that I would get a much better system, but on visiting my local hifi shop I am now not convinced.

I mainly used the Cd player and I pod for convenience, the I pod will however not be used through the hi fi after listening to the difference lately….yes I got lazy for a little while ;-)

My local shop is very keen to push streamers and suggested the Naim Uniti, or the Linn Majik. Both sounded excellent I have to admit. I am still not sure though that a streamer is the way t go for me. The two mentioned are very expensive on my budget, and I also feel that I would need new speakers too if I went down this route.

Also the Naim Uniti is a one unit affair and I have always had it drummed into me that separates are the way to go.

I considered the cheaper NP30, but of course they scoffed at this as its only £400.

So now I am very confused……any suggestions or help will be greatly appreciated.

Particularly as this thread has progressed, it seems to me you are contemplating spending money for the sake of it. You don't actually say in your OP that there is anything you dislike about your current system (either generally or with any specific component). Also, as you realised yourself and from the various comments on the thread, a £2.5k system overhaul is not going to give you a 'night and day' difference compared to your already good system; technology simply has not moved on in a night and day way.

The majority of posts have been aimed at your source. If you spent your entire budget on a new source (whether CDP or streamer) you would probably get an improvement, but probably not one that represented value for money. It also seems to me that you shouldn't be forced down the streamer route just because that is the trend (both amongst members of the forum and in the shop you visited): you still like the tactility of choosing and playing CDs and you don't (particularly) complain about space, certainly in relation to your components. If you were to spend <£500 on a streamer I don't think you're going to get any significant increase in SQ and you may be pulling the trigger too early, as this sector of the industry is bound to see improvements over the next year or two.

If you must spend now, I would suggest you'll get the biggest improvement by upgrading speakers (and perhaps make further component upgrades as funds allow over the next few years) or alternatively consider a radical change such as that suggested by AlmaataKZ. Of course, if you go that route you should be spending some substantial time researching and listening.

 

[Womaz]

@ Ben Law. Thank you for that, an excellent response to my post. Yes I am happy with my system I just have some cash and as it has been 9 years I thought if I spent the same I would see significant improvements. It appears that may not be the case.

The speakers is an interesting point. They are decent enough but my friend who is a HiFi enthusiast thinks that I should never have bought them in the first place.

I have recently looked at MA rx6.....and the Tannoy DC6.

 

[CnoEvil]

Particularly as this thread has progressed, it seems to me you are contemplating spending money for the sake of it. You don't actually say in your OP that there is anything you dislike about your current system (either generally or with any specific component). Also, as you realised yourself and from the various comments on the thread, a £2.5k system overhaul is not going to give you a 'night and day' difference compared to your already good system; technology simply has not moved on in a night and day way.

The majority of posts have been aimed at your source. If you spent your entire budget on a new source (whether CDP or streamer) you would probably get an improvement, but probably not one that represented value for money. It also seems to me that you shouldn't be forced down the streamer route just because that is the trend (both amongst members of the forum and in the shop you visited): you still like the tactility of choosing and playing CDs and you don't (particularly) complain about space, certainly in relation to your components. If you were to spend <£500 on a streamer I don't think you're going to get any significant increase in SQ and you may be pulling the trigger too early, as this sector of the industry is bound to see improvements over the next year or two.

If you must spend now, I would suggest you'll get the biggest improvement by upgrading speakers (and perhaps make further component upgrades as funds allow over the next few years) or alternatively consider a radical change such as that suggested by AlmaataKZ. Of course, if you go that route you should be spending some substantial time researching and listening.

This is absolutely right, and why I laid out my initial suggestions the way I did.

Having directly compared with an Arcam CDP (all be it a DV79), the DS gives a surprising improvement. I also have heard an Arcam amp (AVR600) with the DS which is a very musical combination.

The suggestion of bringing the system to the dealer was to allow comparison, and to try other speakers (eg. PMC and Kef R series).

I think this exercise is worth doing, and the OP might just be surprised as to how well the A85 amp might sound with the above kit. :rockout:

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi Womaz, it is not easy to pick the bones out of all the differing advice you are getting.

I am familiar with Arcam amps and CDPs, as well as Linn DS players, so I am happy to add my thoughts to your situation. Whether it helps is another matter.

PRESENT SYSTEM.
You have a good well balanced system. The Arcam amp sounds sweet, smooth and musical with a reasonably punchy bass. I like the presentation, but it is too "polite" for some. I think your speakers are a good match, with a "holographic" type of presentation, which would work well with the A85.
The CDP adds more of the same Arcam sound, and it's possible that an injection of a little more excitement wouldn't go amiss.

STREAMING.
I have listened extensively to most of the Linn DSs, and they comfortably out performed the Linn CDPs at the same price (which is why they stopped making CDPs).
While the dealer still had CDPs, I brought in CDs, had the dealer rip them, and compared the CD to the Rip, and heard the difference for myself.

I was using an Arcam DV79 for playing CDs (not a mile from the CD82), and a Magic DS blew it out of the water (which is why I bought it). Even the Sneaky DS (which sounds like a £2k cdp) was a significant improvement.

If you use something like dbPoweamp, you get a perfect rip, whereas a CDP has to read it in real time. A streamer has no motors or moving parts to interfere with the sound. There is also the advantage of playing 24 bit, which imo sounds better.

THE DEALER.
I suspect the dealer was giving sound advice, but with totally the wrong attitude. If there are other staff, I think you should seek out someone who is knowledgeable, but understanding and helpful as well....the owner/senior manager perhaps....and start again.
What components did you actually hear?
Have a clear understanding of what you want to achieve and politely see they accommodate you.

SYSTEM CHANGE.
There is nothing to say that you need to change everything (or even anything), at once.

My advice, would be for you to arrange to bring your amp and speakers into the shop, and have them connected to a Linn Sneaky and then a Majik DS, both of which should make a good difference. Then try different speakers to compare with the Quads. I would look at PMC and Kef R series if they have them.
This will give a good bench mark vs your existing system, and allow you to see a future upgrade path, if it is more than you wish to spend.

If you don't like what you hear, there is no harm done, but imo you should check out just how good DS + Arcam + Quad/PMC/Kef can sound.

Also imo the Arcam amp responds well to a better mains cable (eg. Copper Line Alpha+) from the likes of Clearer Audio, which can be sent back if no improvement is heard.

 

[Dan Turner]

I think you have several options (nothing particulary revolutionary here compared with what's been said already I know):

1) your system is far from being out of date - it's perfectly good still. If you like the sound of it still then keep it and spend your money on more music.

2) If you want to move to a more convenient method of storing, browsing and selecting your music, then look at streaming options, but if you expect it to sound as good as your CD player be prepared to spend about as much on an integrated streamer, or a DAC (if using your computer) as you did on your CD player in the first place. If you want it to be an upgrade then be prepared to spend more - and enough more for it to be worthwhile. The beauty of this option is that you can keep all your existing gear and see over time which you perfer - CD or streaming.

3) If you fancy a total change and want a whole new system (either CD or streamer based), then I would say that spending the same amount on new components now as you did on your currents ones will yield only marginal improvements - that said you could spend the same on components from different brands and get a very different sound that you might think was a lot better or a lot worse depending on your personal preferences.

4) Alternatively if you're generally happy with your system and want to stick with CDs you could just upgrade one element of it. CD Player if that's your main source? You mention that you had been toying with the idea of new speakers - that will certainly give you the biggest difference for your buck.

Recently I was at a bit of a cross-roads with regards to how to improve my set-up. I had made the move completely to computer-based audio and was using a Sonos zone-player (part of a multi-room system) connected digitally to my amp (which has a DAC built-in). The results were very good. For casual, or social purposes it was perfect, but for dedicated listening I felt it could be improved. My choice was whether to go the route of buying a dedicated streamer, or an external DAC for my Sonos, or something else. In the end I went for a really good second hand CD player as that represent the best value for money. My CDX2 is virtually identical to the current version which sells for £3600ish, but I got it for £1300 and the sound I get out of it is far better than £1300 worth of streamer or Sonos + £1300 worth of DAC. I don't mind using CDs when i'm in the lounge - it's the quality that matters to me if I'm in there specifically to listen to music.

Hope that helps. Whatever you do don't be persuaded to change just for the sake of it, don't be persuaded to just follow market trends if it doesn't add anything for you personally and demo, demo, demo before parting with any cash.

Cheers,

Dan

 

[SteveR750]

> the mods (who are not Sonos employees incidentally) will tell you nobody can tell the difference<

Well they would say that, wouldn't they

Just listening to some Linn Records d/ls at 24/96 and I venture to suggest there is a difference...YMMV.

+1

With *good* hi res tracks (as in the possibility that a few are simply upsampled CDA) the difference is obvious, way way more than cables or interconnects. The difference between the std CD and 24/96 version fo a couple of albums I have got is much bigger than the jump between the Kandy K2 and the Caspian M2. To suggest hi-res is pointless is misguided.

FWIW, you don't even need a streamer. A PC with W7, some decent software (how about £35?) and the same downstream kit (DAC/amp/speakers) and you've got the same SQ for all intents and purposes. I sold my Cyrus CDP because my PC was better.

EDIT: and if this improvement is simply because more care was taken with the remastering, great. End result doesn't change.

 

[Womaz]

I would like to thank all of you who have contributed to this posting.

It does appear that there is a bit of a difference in opinion, but I have certainly learnt a great deal.

Thank you.

 

[CnoEvil]

I would like to thank all of you who have contributed to this posting.

It does appear that there is a bit of a difference in opinion, but I have certainly learnt a great deal.

Thank you.

Let us know what you decide to do, and remember, that the only opinion that counts is your own...so take your time, and do lots of demos.

Good Luck

Cno

 

[acalex]

I would like to thank all of you who have contributed to this posting.

It does appear that there is a bit of a difference in opinion, but I have certainly learnt a great deal.

Thank you.

Hey, just my 2 cents here as I am novice like you in this world and found a lot of help and great advices here.

I was very sceptical as well about streamers...and I took the cheapest solution for now, just to get the flavour...bought for around 150eur a Logitech Squeezebox touch. Before that I had pc connecteto to an Arcam rDAC which apparently is a very good DAC at his price range (paid around 350 eur). Well...don't use the DAC anymore. Already out of the box the SB Touch was so good I felt I didn't need that DAC anymore. There is of course still areo for improveent with unexpensive software twickling...not tried yet

I then went a bit further and got a direct comparison of SB touch with a cd player costing 1100 eur. Same CD ripped and played on SBT and in real time compared with CDP. No difference...the dealer was also very impressed. So yes...money wise a streamer at a certain price range is definitely better than a CDP at the same price range. Plus it give you a lot of further advantages (internet radio, multizone, control of all your music library on the palm of your hand...etc etc).

Don't think I will go towards CDP anymore...is too convenient having all your collection on a palm of your hand and being able to access it everywhere (as the NAS is connected to the network, you can virtually access your music everywhere in the world).

Hope this helps a bit

 

[unison]

if you like your system now I would suggest you could consider some cheaper options

1. are the quad speakers bi wore able? if so get a secondhand arcam power amp which matches your arcam amp. I think you will be surprised on how much more stereo separation you will get

2. if computer based music is important to you start getting it stored in some sort of lossless form, all streaming solutions whatever their price benefit hugely from this. that goes for stuff on your iPod if that is the source

3. if cd is to remain your main source of music I think you should try out the marantz 6004 cd player. my friend recently made this the only upgrade in his system. we both did alot of listening to the system after the upgrade, comparing it to an older marantz KI model, and my Cyrus cd6. neither of us could believe how much difference the 6004 made to his system. while cd technology hasn't Leo forward since you bought your arcam, the price per pound has dropped. I believe the player allows you to use the dac inside for your iPod. neither I or my friend have actually used that feature

final comment. if you haven't got your kit on a dedicated rack I would make that your first step, whatever you do.

 

[unison]

if you like your system now I would suggest you could consider some cheaper options

1. are the quad speakers bi wire able? if so get a secondhand arcam power amp which matches your arcam amp. I think you will be surprised on how much more stereo separation you will get

2. if computer based music is important to you start getting it stored in some sort of lossless form, all streaming solutions whatever their price benefit hugely from this. that goes for stuff on your iPod if that is the source

3. if cd is to remain your main source of music I think you should try out the marantz 6004 cd player. my friend recently made this the only upgrade in his system. we both did alot of listening to the system after the upgrade, comparing it to an older marantz KI model, and my Cyrus cd6. neither of us could believe how much difference the 6004 made to his system. while cd technology hasn't Leap forward since you bought your arcam, the price per pound has dropped. I believe the player allows you to use the dac inside for your iPod. neither I or my friend have actually used that feature

final comment. if you haven't got your kit on a dedicated rack I would make that your first step, whatever you do.

 

[davydmx]

May i suggest yet another way?! A modern, 64bit Windows 7 machine, with at least 4gb ram(but preferably 8gb), connected with high quality usb cable(perhaps from Wireworld, Audioquest, etc, etc) into a cutting edge, high performance dac(perhaps Audiolab Mdac, but there are MANY others!)

Install latest iTunes, then populate this new library with lossless 16bit(your cd collection), maybe hi-res stuff also.

Now, the important bit! Download and install latest trial version of a player called JPlay for iTunes(full version costs i think, 99 euro). I've been evaluating the trial version for a while now, and frankly, i think it's amazing.

It loads, then plays your selection from RAM, infact you can assign the amount of RAM it uses from the option menu, hence the need for plenty! The iTunes version of JPlay allows you to use iTunes gui, with all of iTunes functionality, but when you press play, the JPlay 'engine' handles playback.

And it sounds great. To my ears, much better than Foobar, which(J River Media Center aside), was the best player i'd heard on pc. Anyway, at the end of my evaluation, i've decided, despite the hefty pricetag, that i have to buy the full license for this player, it sounds just awesome.

 

[SteveR750]

J River's MC17 will do all that for less than $50, plus it will play a much greater range of file types. IME iTunes and Windows does not work particulalry well, perhaps unsurprisingly. On a mac, now that's an altogether different proposition.

 

[davydmx]

If latest JRiver does indeed sound as good as JPlay(& i think it would have to be substantially better than previous JRiver to achieve this), then it's a win win for all interested parties!

The thing is, JPlay establishes itself as a 'Windows service', and takes priority over all other programs/services with regard to available RAM.

From what i've read, here & elsewhere, those background running services can have negative effect on sq, so in essence, sounds as if JPlay automatically optimises your pc, rather than the user having to manually disable 'harmful' services/programs.

With regards to file types, it's true that JPlay currently wont deal with lossy file types(MP3, AAC, etc), but when you attempt to play such a file, it reverts back to iTunes own playback 'engine' instead. It WILL though handle 16 bit WAV, AIFF, ALAC & FLAC, and also hi-res versions of those codecs.

Finally, i'm afraid i don't understand your comments about iTunes on pc. Granted iTunes isn't 'bitperfect' on pc, but surely anyone 'in the know' doesn't use iTunes for actual playback on pc? All other iTunes functionality, AFAIK, is the same on pc as it is on mac...

Anyhow, no disrespect intended to anyone. I just felt like i had to speak up for JPlay, based on my opinion that it sounds OUTSTANDING!

And so i'm buying it...