Upgrade...streamer or Cds....help please.

[matthewpiano]

They "scoffed" eh? I wouldn't give them the time of day. Take your money elsewhere where they'll let you express an opinion without fear of ridicule. As for streamers, also check out Sony's SMP-200 which supersedes last year's -100. It's around £120. There are so many options, it's hard to give you a concrete list, but I'd suggest you don't need to blow that amount. Your amps and speakers are still good, so don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Technology is changing as is how we access music. Twelve months ago, I probably wouldn't have looked at the Onkyo I'm using just now (it hadn't been released for one thing, doh!), but I get music from so many sources a bog standard amp didn't cut it. Far too limiting. A one box solution (which the Onkyo is) let me achieve what I needed. I still have a CD player and a turntable, but the Western Digital hard drive holds hundreds of albums in WAV file format, but also 192 and 320 kbps MP3 too. Everything sounds good. There's no reason why you shouldn't go for something similar, moreso if you feel the need to downsize the boxcount.

You absolutely do not need to spend that amount, to get good sound, but of course, by all means do. Just go to a dealer who'll let you come to the decision you feel is right for you without pressure.

I have to agree with The Record Spot here. Don't get pushed downstream by a dealer's prejudices or by any feeling about what you 'should' be doing. I've fallen into that trap fairly consistently for quite some time and it hasn't made me happy, I have to say. Yes, in some ways I've enjoyed hearing and owning lots of different bits of hi-fi, but ultimately it has all taken the focus away from the music.

Like RS, it isn't that long ago that I wouldn't have given anything like the Onkyo a second thought. After all, its a receiver and they are to be scoffed at, right? It combines too many features in one box to be any good, and it is a mass market product, right? It is too obscenely cheap to be any good, and it doesn't carry one of the hallowed audiophile names, right?

Well, wrong actually. You have to take these things as you find them. The features are wonderful and are consistently enhancing my enjoyment of music, particularly the discovery of new music. The sound is as good as anything I've ever had, and a good bit better than most things, to the point where that is also enhancing my enjoyment of music. Surely, that is what hi-fi is all about?

Ignore people who scoff at things and judge each idea and component as you personally find it. If you have listened to potential upgrades and you aren't sure of their worth, don't spend the money on them, no matter how much someone tries to persuade you otherwise. If you find products like the Cambridge NP30 attractive, have a listen and see what YOU think, rather than accepting common myths or someone elses possibly biased opinion. It isn't necessary to spend big to get big performance these days. With a bit of savvy research and listening, you can do very well for relatively little money and, ultimately, if the system consistently performs well enough to get out of the way and allow the music and recording to come through and involve you, then it has done its job.

 

[John Duncan]

If your really serious about sound quality and I mean serious, there is no substitute for CD.

Nonsense.

 

[Womaz]

How good are these forums. Thanks for all the replies. All very helpful.

It appears that there are differing opinions about Streamers v CD. Maybe I need to think again.

Also am I missing something here. I like to have a physical CD, so if I bought a streamer/nas drive I would be ripping the CDs to that, so I am not sure how that would give an improvement in sound. Would it. Is ot down to the fact that manufacturers are putting more effort into them?

All of the replies have been very welcome. Thank you

 

[Womaz]

I would also like to add that maybe I have been a bit hard on the dealer.

He did push me towards streamers I thought, but it appears that a lot of people on here agree with that route.

He was also very patient and very helpful.

 

[The_Lhc]

I would also like to add that maybe I have been a bit hard on the dealer.

He did push me towards streamers I thought, but it appears that a lot of people on here agree with that route.

Yes but we wouldn't scoff at "only" spending £400 on one, which is what seems to have excercised many bile ducts in this thread.

 

[John Duncan]

A streamer with a good DAC (whether it be its own internal one or an external one like a DACMagic plus or Rega or Beresford or whatever) can provide you with at least as good quality as CD, if not better, and can provide you with better integration to internet services like radio or Spotify. I'd rather have a Squeezebox and an outboard DAC than any CD player up to a grand, and I cannot tell the difference between CD replay and streaming in a NaimUniti. The latter, however, does so much more that I never put a disk in a tray; only Mrs JD wants to do that.

I think the dealer is on the right track, but to be fair most of the 'hifi' streamers so far are a bit lacking on the UI front. That'll change soon enough...

 

[Womaz]

A streamer with a good DAC (whether it be its own internal one or an external one like a DACMagic plus or Rega or Beresford or whatever) can provide you with at least as good quality as CD, if not better, and can provide you with better integration to internet services like radio or Spotify. I'd rather have a Squeezebox and an outboard DAC than any CD player up to a grand, and I cannot tell the difference between CD replay and streaming in a NaimUniti. The latter, however, does so much more that I never put a disk in a tray; only Mrs JD wants to do that.

I think the dealer is on the right track, but to be fair most of the 'hifi' streamers so far are a bit lacking on the UI front. That'll change soon enough...

You say above that its at least as good a quality as CDs? If it is not better than CDs then why would I want to go this route?

Sorry I am a novice with Hi Fi.

 

[plastic penguin]

A streamer with a good DAC (whether it be its own internal one or an external one like a DACMagic plus or Rega or Beresford or whatever) can provide you with at least as good quality as CD, if not better, and can provide you with better integration to internet services like radio or Spotify. I'd rather have a Squeezebox and an outboard DAC than any CD player up to a grand, and I cannot tell the difference between CD replay and streaming in a NaimUniti. The latter, however, does so much more that I never put a disk in a tray; only Mrs JD wants to do that.

I think the dealer is on the right track, but to be fair most of the 'hifi' streamers so far are a bit lacking on the UI front. That'll change soon enough...

You say above that its at least as good a quality as CDs? If it is not better than CDs then why would I want to go this route?

Sorry I am a novice with Hi Fi.

Either 1) lack of room 2) Convenience. Once you've downloaded and stored all you need is to access via remote. Simples.

At some point I'll be changing to some streaming device, but not because I don't like the sound the CDP gives, purely a lack of space (Mrs. P is the driving force behind the de-cluttering)

 

[John Duncan]

On the whole, I have found that streaming is the equal or better of CD. My original foray into streaming was documented here (it was kind of a draw), my impressions of the Naimuniti here (though it appears to have lost its (though the formatting appears to have gone awry), and more will come soon. It's easier and cheaper to get the same quality as CD because there aren't any moving parts; a CD player has a tricky job of getting data off a disc in real time, whereas streaming means you can do that hard work up front, and you can do it cheaply.

It also offers you the opportunity to have thousands of tracks at your fingertips, and offers integration with other sources like internet radio, Last.FM, Spotify, Napster, etc...

 

[Womaz]

I do have a problem with a lack of space as I have over 2000 Cds, but that would not make me compromise on the sound quality.

If I am to rip my CDs in a good quality format then I presume I need a NAS drive as well. I think I need to do some further reading.

My gut feeling is to experiment with say the cheaper Cambridge NP30, and see if this gives me better sound quality than my CD. I doubt I will be able to demo this as its only sold by Richer Sounds.

 

[Anonymous]

You say above that its at least as good a quality as CDs? If it is not better than CDs then why would I want to go this route?

Sorry I am a novice with Hi Fi.

That's a bit like in the old says when CD players were just out, asking which is better - CDs or vinyl. A streamer simply replaces the CD transport, and with modern technology the streamers are very good, as the hard work in reading all the 1s and 0s off teh disc is already done. Then there's the DACS, either part of the streamer or separate, just like with a CD player so no difference there.

If its pure sound quality you want, I'd probably stay with CDs, since you don't have the bother with ripping your collection, mucking about with PCs or NAS drives etc. which all add to the overall cost and hassle. You'd want to go the streamer route however, if the added features, UI, ease etc is what you're after, I don't think "better sound quality" per se, is what streamers offer.

It all depends on what floats your boat.

Me? I still play CDs on the Wadia even though I've ripped my entire collection. Guess I'm just used to choosing a CD, whatever takes my fancy, dropping it in the drawer and pressing "play". There's something tactile about that experience that I like. However I stream on #2 hifi since (a) the CD player is abit old and (b) the CDs are in a difference room so its more convenient to boot up my laptop holding the library then finger through the library on the Squeezebox Touch. And the SB Touch with its built in DAC is at least as good as the aging Meridan I expect, its certainly good enough!

 

[Womaz]

@ Dr Lodge....once again thank you for the reply. Very helpful.

 

[plastic penguin]

I do have a problem with a lack of space as I have over 2000 Cds, but that would not make me compromise on the sound quality.

If I am to rip my CDs in a good quality format then I presume I need a NAS drive as well. I think I need to do some further reading.

My gut feeling is to experiment with say the cheaper Cambridge NP30, and see if this gives me better sound quality than my CD. I doubt I will be able to demo this as its only sold by Richer Sounds.

Don't just limit yoursel to the Cambridge, as there are other (some say more capable devices) out there: Marantz, Rotel, Arcam, Nad... or cheaper versions such as Sonos.

A few months ago I heard at a dealers Naim HDX all-in-one and the Olive 3 and compared it to my CDP, and have to say for convenience they are great. But in pure SQ terms, having a Elvis Costello LP ripped to the aforementioned devices, on a pound-per-sound basis, I personally didn't think they warranted the hefty price tag.

Haven't heard the Naim Uniti or Arcam Solo Neo or the Marantz 603, but based on what I heard (5k for the Naim and 1k for the Olive) I was hugely disappointed.

BTW, the amp was Naim XS-2, my CDP is Arcam CD73 and speakers Dynaudio Contour 1.4.

In addition, I have the original DacMagic and although very clear and detailed, in comparison with my CDP, it sounded a little mechanical (the Dac is now boxed up)

 

[the record spot]

I know what you mean PP; I referred to an £11k system on another thread that left me less than overwhelmed. I think the source was via an Olive system too, but might've been NAS using an iPad as the controller. Thanks to technology, we can achieve high quality sound without needing to spend Naim's or Olive's idea of what this stuff costs to make.

Onkyo, Logitech, Sonos and others...they're all making stuff that's more than able to deliver and step up to the plate. The speaker choice plays a part too of course as that's really what's going to define the sound of the system.

 

[plastic penguin]

I know what you mean PP; I referred to an £11k system on another thread that left me less than overwhelmed. I think the source was via an Olive system too, but might've been NAS using an iPad as the controller. Thanks to technology, we can achieve high quality sound without needing to spend Naim's or Olive's idea of what this stuff costs to make.

Onkyo, Logitech, Sonos and others...they're all making stuff that's more than able to deliver and step up to the plate. The speaker choice plays a part too of course as that's really what's going to define the sound of the system.

You may not like this next post, but here goes: After listening to, admittedly limited experience, these all-in-ones, I am still convinced (heard nothing to change my mind) that separates will give the best all-round SQ. I've owned receivers and seps, and after hearing Olive (sorry PopEye) and the Naim I still believe the way forward for me is a streamer, separate DAC and storage.

My current system isn't a Mickey Mouse set-up, and the 73T with top-notch amplification and really good speakers is as good as I've heard below 1k, and that includes my long-term favourite Exposure 2010S. The main differences between a really good 1k CDP and the Arcam is subtle at best (or worst).

 

[amcluesent]

As 2012 will be the "year of the streamers" you really need to think about the features that are must-haves for you, e.g.

Budgetaffordability - we'd all like a Naim NDX and 555 PSU!

Proper multi-zone, syncronisation - Sonos and Squeezebox have a well-sorted implementation

Gapless playback - a number of players will need a fimware update to get this working (i.e. Cambridge, Simple Audio)

Hi-rez download playback - Sonos tops out at CD quality

In build harddisk - very few do this

Compatible with Airplay - a few licenced by Apple

IOS and Android controller app - most have this now

Use of a 24/7 NAS - Apple iTunes isn't viable on a Linux NAS

Support for 'plug-in' for Spotify, BBC Listen Again, Last FM etc

Handholding of noobs - Sonos is well known for it's customer service

User Engagment - Linn, Sonos, Squeezebox, Naim all have buzzing forums

and then draw up a shortlist accordingly.

At the end of the day, streamers will come and go. The assets you'll need for years and years(!) is your ripped CD and downloads, so backup is key. Maybe by 2015 it'll all be in the 'cloud' at 24/96

 

[The_Lhc]

Proper multi-zone, syncronisation - Sonos and Squeezebox have a well-sorted implementation

Sonos is better.

Gapless playback - a number of players will need a fimware update to get this working (i.e. Cambridge, Simple Audio)

Sonos doesn't.

Hi-rez download playback - Sonos tops out at CD quality

True, go and ask on their forum though and the mods (who are not Sonos employees incidentally) will tell you nobody can tell the difference (that's their opinion, not necessarily mine), Sonos themselves have nothing to say on the subject.

In build harddisk - very few do this

I'd say that's a good thing, do you fancy changing the HDD on an Olive (for example) when it runs out of space? I don't.

Compatible with Airplay - a few licenced by Apple

Only important if you're actually an iTunes user of course.

Use of a 24/7 NAS - Apple iTunes isn't viable on a Linux NAS

see above.

There's also a point to be made about Squeezebox, as good as it is (I'd recommend it for a one room solution), it's looking very much like Logitech are going to be dropping the Squeezbox line soon. One assumes they have their own replacement in the works but...

 

[amcluesent]

> the mods (who are not Sonos employees incidentally) will tell you nobody can tell the difference<

Well they would say that, wouldn't they

Just listening to some Linn Records d/ls at 24/96 and I venture to suggest there is a difference...YMMV.

 

[the record spot]

That's fine PP, that's your view - no worries that I'll like nor dislike it. It is what it is.

My view is different, obviously. I'm quite comfortable in holding the view that the present setup is quite easily as good as any separates I've had previously. And better than most.

 

[CnoEvil]

On the whole, I have found that streaming is the equal or better of CD. My original foray into streaming was documented here (it was kind of a draw), my impressions of the Naimuniti here (though it appears to have lost its (though the formatting appears to have gone awry), and more will come soon. It's easier and cheaper to get the same quality as CD because there aren't any moving parts; a CD player has a tricky job of getting data off a disc in real time, whereas streaming means you can do that hard work up front, and you can do it cheaply.

It also offers you the opportunity to have thousands of tracks at your fingertips, and offers integration with other sources like internet radio, Last.FM, Spotify, Napster, etc...

This is exactly the point I'm trying to get across. In fact I would go further (certainly with regard to the Linn) and say that, imo, the sound from the streamer is noticeably better than a CDP at the same price.

I'm over 50, grew up with vinyl, and hated CD when it first came out. It was only when I heard the more analogue sounding Linn Karik/Numerik that I swapped over....triggered by the birth of my first child in the early 90s.

I am computer-phobic and network hopeless, but have ended up with a ripping NAS + DS....it sounded better than my fairly hi-end Linn CDP.

My very helpful dealer did the initial set up and installation (in the price), and once done, the system is very easy to use via laptop, iThingy or PDA.

The convenience of having all my music so accessible, means I'm inclined to play more of my collection. I certainly don't regret the change and if I managed it...

There is also the fact that any UPnP device (Xboxes, Playstations and the like) can access the music library.

You do have a lot of ripping to do, but done gradually over time, this isn't a big issue.

Please do your own evaluation (as I suggested previously) and don't take as "gospel" anything you are told, until you hear it for yourself. It was initially the superb sound quality that led me down this path, rather than the convenience (which is an added bonus).

 

[The_Lhc]

> the mods (who are not Sonos employees incidentally) will tell you nobody can tell the difference<

Well they would say that, wouldn't they

If they were Sonos employees yes but they aren't. However they're still rabid (there's no other word for it) in their insistance that it doesn't matter. I'd like it solely because without it it makes their "all the music in the world" slogan seem a bit stupid.

Just listening to some Linn Records d/ls at 24/96 and I venture to suggest there is a difference...YMMV.

They would tell you that it's simply because it's been mastered with more care and is nothing to do with the added bit-depth and sample rate.

 

[plastic penguin]

That's fine PP, that's your view - no worries that I'll like nor dislike it. It is what it is.

My view is different, obviously. I'm quite comfortable in holding the view that the present setup is quite easily as good as any separates I've had previously. And better than most.

No Sansui reprise then?

Joking aside, I think we are singing from the same song book, albeit on different pages, and that spending huge amounts does not guarantee a significant uplift in sound. Generally, the upgrades are usually small and it's only when you upgrade the system as a whole that the picture improves... a little acorn here, acorn there...

Back to the OP's dilemma: He needs to listen to a few different set-ups and then appraise it from there.

 

[John Duncan]

In fact I would go further (certainly with regard to the Linn) and say that, imo, the sound from the streamer is noticeably better than a CDP at the same price

I would *sometimes* go that far, but not always (it's never sounded worse through the same DAC though ), which is why I'm being slightly circumspect. Though it should be said that I've never compared CD players and streamers at the same price, the streamer has always been cheaper (cf: airport express versus Primare D20) .

 

[Womaz]

Learning a lot from this forum.

Just to add another small point I like to have a CD! Nice to have in the hands, lyrics etc etc.

One thing I am taking away is that its maybe the HiFi retailers who emphasise how much difference there is between the sound quality in the different price brackets.

Another option is that I sit tight. My system is OK. I can save more cash up and this time next year the Streamers will be more widely used and probably cheaper as more products.

 

[John Duncan]

Another option is that I sit tight. My system is OK. I can save more cash up and this time next year the Streamers will be more widely used and probably cheaper as more products.

If you're not in a hurry, then I think this year will bring some interesting new products, yes...