Upgrade path

[insider9]

Hello everyone, I'm looking for some expert advice being new to this.

I'm very happy with my current setup but my tinkering nature means I will be upgrading my components, most likely on regular basis at least for a while.

I listen to CD/Flac and Spotify and occasionally to vinyl but due to the fact my vinyl collection is tiny I want to focus on digital media.

My understanding is you're supposed to start from the weakest link. What would you consider the weakest link?

Sources: PC with Asus Xonar Essence Stx + Arcam CD72
Amp: Arcam A85
Speakers: Dali Zensor 3

Thanks in advance

 

[Rimse]

Hello everyone, I'm looking for some expert advice being new to this.

I'm very happy with my current setup but my tinkering nature means I will be upgrading my components, most likely on regular basis at least for a while.

I listen to CD/Flac and Spotify and occasionally to vinyl but due to the fact my vinyl collection is tiny I want to focus on digital media.

My understanding is you're supposed to start from the weakest link. What would you consider the weakest link?

Sources: PC with Asus Xonar Essence Stx + Arcam CD72 Amp: Arcam A85 Speakers: Dali Zensor 3

Thanks in advance

you need decent DAC

 

[insider9]

Thanks for quick reply.

Xonar Essence is surprisingly capable and sounds very similar to CD72 (I think they're both Burr Brown)

I'd like it to be a significant upgrade. Wouldn't anything up to £300 provide that or would I have to spend more?

What would you suggest?

 

[ID.]

I'd upgrade the speakers.

Maybe something from PMC or Kef, depending on your budget and room size, etc.

 

[muljao]

It's human nature to want better but the 'I'm happy" comment in your first thread should tell you all you need to know.

You could spend 300 and hear no improvement, and then be less happy, because everything is the same except your wallet is lighter

 

[insider9]

Yes, speakers were my initial thought.

My dac chip is the same as in Arcam irDAC so unless the implementation matters that much I'd have to spend £400+ for something along the lines of Audiolab MDac for a significant dac upgrade. Thought without listening to both it's only a guess.

Listening room is small approx 3m x 4m so can't go with bigger speakers.

The biggest problem for me choosing speakers is the fact I listen to so many genres. I choose Dalis as they sounded good with most kinds of music.

I can listen to Miles Davis one minute and them switch to System of a Down so need nice timbre on horns and aggressive sounding guitars.

Do you know of any versatile speakers that could do both well?

 

[insider9]

It's human nature to want better but the 'I'm happy" comment in your first thread should tell you all you need to know.

You could spend 300 and hear no improvement, and then be less happy, because everything is the same except your wallet is lighter

I completely agree hence asked the question. It's my inexperience in this field that's making me "itchy".

My first amp though definitely decent (Onkyo A9010) was enjoyable but I was blown away by the difference once I got Arcam.

 

[hg]

My understanding is you're supposed to start from the weakest link. What would you consider the weakest link?

Your digital source and amplifier are likely to be audibly neutral in the sense of not being able to identify them in a blind test. Your speakers are not audibly neutral. However, the room will also be contributing significantly to the quality of the sound you hear and improvements here may fit your budget.

 

[muljao]

I have not tried enough systems, or indeed don't know enough about hifi to recommend an improvement. As said, speakers can make a big difference to "The sound", whether that is better or worse, only you can decide on a listen. I do know that in all fields once you get past the initial consumer level (and even though many may baulk at budget amps and cd players etc, these are a considerable step up in both quality and price over probably what 90% of people buy and own) there is the diminishing returns philosophy.

There is nothing to say you cant improve with 300 pounds, but if you are happy and there is nothing in particular you feel your system needs, its like looking for an improvement, but there is nothing you know that needs improving.

I am not being smart ass or that, but you may find in 6 months that your system isn't as good with certain things such as (for example) bass control or treble or something else as you would like, then you have a problem to fix

There is always the option of making it easier to listen to music by say adding a chromecast and a speaker to a different room, or buying a nice set of headphones so you can listen when your other half is in bed etc. You might possibly get more enjoyement out of ease of use. I would say though, if there is no obvious problem, don't look for one

 

[insider9]

I have not tried enough systems, or indeed don't know enough about hifi to recommend an improvement. As said, speakers can make a big difference to "The sound", whether that is better or worse, only you can decide on a listen. I do know that in all fields once you get past the initial consumer level (and even though many may baulk at budget amps and cd players etc, these are a considerable step up in both quality and price over probably what 90% of people buy and own) there is the diminishing returns philosophy.

There is nothing to say you cant improve with 300 pounds, but if you are happy and there is nothing in particular you feel your system needs, its like looking for an improvement, but there is nothing you know that needs improving.

I am not being smart ass or that, but you may find in 6 months that your system isn't as good with certain things such as (for example) bass control or treble or something else as you would like, then you have a problem to fix

There is always the option of making it easier to listen to music by say adding a chromecast and a speaker to a different room, or buying a nice set of headphones so you can listen when your other half is in bed etc. You might possibly get more enjoyement out of ease of use. I would say though, if there is no obvious problem, don't look for one

That sounds completely fair. Thanks for taking your time to reply.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Your current kit is quite good and if I was to change anything it probably would be the speakers but you'd need to go used to get a worthwhile improvement for around your 300 quid...think b&w cm1's or the cm5's (I used to run a pair on a arcam a85)or maybe further up the dali range but the proof is in the listening at the end of the day so try and get out and listen to the kit you're interested in.Also the cd82 is also a decent improvement on the 72t for not a lot of money these days.

 

[insider9]

Your current kit is quite good and if I was to change anything it probably would be the speakers but you'd need to go used to get a worthwhile improvement for around your 300 quid...think b&w cm1's or the cm5's (I used to run a pair on a arcam a85)or maybe further up the dali range but the proof is in the listening at the end of the day so try and get out and listen to the kit you're interested in.Also the cd82 is also a decent improvement on the 72t for not a lot of money these days.

Yes, second hand would probably be my preference though auditioning would be much more difficult.

In terms of budget I could go up to £500 or possibly more probably topping at £700. I only mentioned £300 in reference to a dac. I just wasn't sure a £300 dac would be a big improvement on my sound card.

I'd rather bigger upgrade steps less frequently than small incremental ones more often. Thanks for suggesting B&W speakers though I'll look into them.

 

[Vaprak001]

For well under your 300 budget, you could try an Op amp upgrade on your Xonar sound card. I heard a mates Op amp upgrade using Burson chips and it sounded really very good. Easy to do too apparently.

Cheers

 

[insider9]

For well under your 300 budget, you could try an Op amp upgrade on your Xonar sound card. I heard a mates Op amp upgrade using Burson chips and it sounded really very good. Easy to do too apparently.

Cheers

Very true, I remember reading about it a while ago and not sure why I abandoned the idea. I guess I just couldn't decide on particular op amp. It's probably worth a go as the cost would be less than £20 for a decent set. Since it looks like the speakers would be upgraded first op amps could be done before it. It will be easier comparing to the speakers I'm used to.

Thanks for that suggestion that's first step of my upgrade path sorted Looks like speakers are next and then either dac or power amp to bi amp depending on speakers I get.

------------------------------------------------

Also massive thanks to all for very informative suggestions. It definitely makes it clearer when you can have someone to share their experience.

 

[insider9]

For well under your 300 budget, you could try an Op amp upgrade on your Xonar sound card. I heard a mates Op amp upgrade using Burson chips and it sounded really very good. Easy to do too apparently.

Cheers

Very true, I remember reading about it a while ago and not sure why I abandoned the idea. I guess I just couldn't decide on particular op amp. It's probably worth a go as the cost would be less than £20 for a decent set. Since it looks like the speakers would be upgraded first op amps could be done before it. It will be easier comparing to the speakers I'm used to.

Thanks for that suggestion that's first step of my upgrade path sorted Looks like speakers are next and then either dac or power amp to bi amp depending on speakers I get.

------------------------------------------------

Also massive thanks to all for very informative suggestions. It definitely makes it clearer when you can have someone to share their experience.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Don't be bothering with the bi-amping thingy jig...total waste of money use the cash to put towards a better integrated.The p85 that partners the a85 doesn't make much difference,I've already been down that very route and ended up with my current amplifier.

 

[oivavoi10]

There are two things that are much more important than everything else in hifi: Speakers, and room acoustics. You can change components all you want, but compared with the effect of speakers and room acoustics, it pales in importance.

If you want to change or improve the sound the hear, there are therefore three sensible upgrade paths:

1) make sure your room acoustics is decent. It might very well be, of course. if not, some simple acoustic treatment can improve things.

2) implement room correction and eq with dirac live in your system. I'm almost sure that this will have a positive effect. You can try it for free for two weeks on your computer. So you can try it out, and see what you think. (if you don't use your computer as the sole source, you can buy boxes from minidsp that use dirac live, should you decide to purchase it)

3) buy better speakers.

If you decide to buy new speakers in the end, the better choice is to choose active speakers. The total cost is cheaper, and sound quality is often much better. Buying a set of well-regarded studio monitors will give you most bang for the bucks. I would for example expect a pair of the very cheap LSR305 from JBL to sound better than your current setup. IMO they sound better than many hifi-setups that cost 10 times more. If you want to spend even more money, then there are many monitors that perform even better. But the LSR305 will give you an almost obscene amount of value for your money.

Good luck!

 

[insider9]

Don't be bothering with the bi-amping thingy jig...total waste of money use the cash to put towards a better integrated.The p85 that partners the a85 doesn't make much difference,I've already been down that very route and ended up with my current amplifier.

Thanks Mark, will bear that in mind.

 

[thewinelake.]

Do you want to be cured of audiophilia nervosa or not is the first question.

if you do, then I'd second the active speaker route (there - second use of the A-word in the space of a week!).

When this was suggested to me a few months back, I pretty much ignored the suggestion - and suspect you will do the same!

But the rest is history and it's now all about the music for me, but I really do see the appeal of tweaking.

Good luck!

 

[insider9]

There are two things that are much more important than everything else in hifi: Speakers, and room acoustics. You can change components all you want, but compared with the effect of speakers and room acoustics, it pales in importance.

 

If you want to change or improve the sound the hear, there are therefore three sensible upgrade paths:

1) make sure your room acoustics is decent. It might very well be, of course. if not, some simple acoustic treatment can improve things.

2) implement room correction and eq with dirac live in your system. I'm almost sure that this will have a positive effect. You can try it for free for two weeks on your computer. So you can try it out, and see what you think. (if you don't use your computer as the sole source, you can buy boxes from minidsp that use dirac live, should you decide to purchase it)

3) buy better speakers.

 

If you decide to buy new speakers in the end, the better choice is to choose active speakers. The total cost is cheaper, and sound quality is often much better. Buying a set of well-regarded studio monitors will give you most bang for the bucks. I would for example expect a pair of the very cheap LSR305 from JBL to sound better than your current setup. IMO they sound better than many hifi-setups that cost 10 times more. If you want to spend even more money, then there are many monitors that perform even better. But the LSR305 will give you an almost obscene amount of value for your money.

Good luck!

Thanks for very informative reply. Room acoustics is not something I thought I could improve much. I think is decent enough as it is though happy to give a trial a go to see if it would make a difference.

In regards to monitors I'll definitely demo some when looking for speakers. I've heard a number of JBL monitors in studios and even though tonally they were very neutral and definitely good in many regards they've never given me anything great in regards to imaging/soundstaging.

 

[insider9]

Do you want to be cured of audiophilia nervosa or not is the first question.

if you do, then I'd second the active speaker route (there - second use of the A-word in the space of a week!).

When this was suggested to me a few months back, I pretty much ignored the suggestion - and suspect you will do the same! 

But the rest is history and it's now all about the music for me, but I really do see the appeal of tweaking.

Good luck!

Thanks very much. I'm glad you've been cured yourself and I'm hoping it's not going to take me that long.

I'm lucky enough as I do enjoy my system. Yes I could do with better tweeters on my Dalis. I think that's what it is. I think this is what reviewers meant by "Could do with a little bit more refinement" the detail is much sharper on my second setup where I'm using Monitor Audio BX5. Sadly MA's don't handle distorted guitars that we'll so I can only use them for more mellow listening.

It's only when the music isn't playing I get to thinking. But the positives are without this forum I wouldn't even consider active speakers. Now I'll have them on my audition list. Thanks again

 

[oivavoi10]

There are two things that are much more important than everything else in hifi: Speakers, and room acoustics. You can change components all you want, but compared with the effect of speakers and room acoustics, it pales in importance.

If you want to change or improve the sound the hear, there are therefore three sensible upgrade paths:

1) make sure your room acoustics is decent. It might very well be, of course. if not, some simple acoustic treatment can improve things.

2) implement room correction and eq with dirac live in your system. I'm almost sure that this will have a positive effect. You can try it for free for two weeks on your computer. So you can try it out, and see what you think. (if you don't use your computer as the sole source, you can buy boxes from minidsp that use dirac live, should you decide to purchase it)

3) buy better speakers.

If you decide to buy new speakers in the end, the better choice is to choose active speakers. The total cost is cheaper, and sound quality is often much better. Buying a set of well-regarded studio monitors will give you most bang for the bucks. I would for example expect a pair of the very cheap LSR305 from JBL to sound better than your current setup. IMO they sound better than many hifi-setups that cost 10 times more. If you want to spend even more money, then there are many monitors that perform even better. But the LSR305 will give you an almost obscene amount of value for your money.

Good luck!

Thanks for very informative reply. Room acoustics is not something I thought I could improve much. I think is decent enough as it is though happy to give a trial a go to see if it would make a difference.

In regards to monitors I'll definitely demo some when looking for speakers. I've heard a number of JBL monitors in studios and even though tonally they were very neutral and definitely good in many regards they've never given me anything great in regards to imaging/soundstaging.

Ok, sounds like you've already auditioned some setups, then! Good luck in your futher search

Maybe I was a bit too absolute in my previous post. Taste in speakers and setups is to a certain degree subjective, of course. So the best advice is always to audition different speakers, preferrably in your home if possible, and see what you like. Even though I think the cheap JBL 305 plays absolutely amazing for the price, there's no guarantee that it'll tick your boxes.

Concerning acoustics: The simplest test I know of for getting a feeling for the acoustics in a room is to use pink noise. When we listen to music, our brain compensates for reflections, acoustics, etc. But when listening to pink noise, it becomes possible to see if the signal that is coming from the speakers sounds the same, etc. The loudspeaker designer Siegfried Linkwitz has created a test signal with pink noise, together with instructions for how to use it: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/accurate%20stereo%20performance.htm I think this is very useful. After using that test, I realised that I actually needed to move my speakers quite a bit, and imaging in my setup improved significantly after that.

And as I said: The room correction software dirac live can actually work magic. It actually does. It's possible to download it and see: http://www.dirac.com/online-store/. You need a measurement mic though. Maybe you know someone who can borrow you one?

Anyway, only your ears can be the judge, whatever you end up going for

 

[insider9]

Thanks @oivavoi10 a lot of very useful info.

I've been reading for a while and looking to do some testing hopefully this weekend.

 

[insider9]

Ok, I've ordered new speakers. I've had a demo in Richer Sounds for about an hour of ex display Roksan Kandy K2 TR5 which were quite beat up. Due to poor condition didn't take them but then got a pair online after some deliberation.

I loved the ribbon tweeters on them. Crystal clear without being harsh. Bass very well controlled but quite thin for the size of their demo room (my room is smaller so hoping it will be fine). Mids were lovely but a little forward. Ideally would prefer a more flat frequency response but was so amazed by the tweeter I guess I could live with it. Vocals and horns were stunning and the amount of detail was great.

So now I'm waiting for my speakers to arrive on Tuesday. If my hunch was wrong and after a day or two of listening I won't like the bump in mids or bass will be too thin or treble too tiring I have an option of returning them.

I should add I only paid £320 so it would be a cheap upgrade to Dalis.

If you've got any thoughts please share.

 

[Al ears]

Ok, I've ordered new speakers. I've had a demo in Richer Sounds for about an hour of ex display Roksan Kandy K2 TR5 which were quite beat up. Due to poor condition didn't take them but then got a pair online after some deliberation.

I loved the ribbon tweeters on them. Crystal clear without being harsh. Bass very well controlled but quite thin for the size of their demo room (my room is smaller so hoping it will be fine). Mids were lovely but a little forward. Ideally would prefer a more flat frequency response but was so amazed by the tweeter I guess I could live with it. Vocals and horns were stunning and the amount of detail was great.

So now I'm waiting for my speakers to arrive on Tuesday. If my hunch was wrong and after a day or two of listening I won't like the bump in mids or bass will be too thin or treble too tiring I have an option of returning them.

I should add I only paid £320 so it would be a cheap upgrade to Dalis.

If you've got any thoughts please share.

It would be interesting to know what amp was used in the demo. I've heard earlier versions of these speakers and they need a really good amp to drive them successfully obviously Roksans own amps where used in their development.