Upgrade from Roksan K3 integrated onwards

[tytang]

Hi all, I would like to explore ideas from folks here on how I can move forward in my journey for better sound. I have Roksan K3 integrated amplifier connecting to B&W 706 S2. I have thoroughly enjoyed the wonderful Roksan sound for all these years. I am not in a rush, but I have been thinking on the options for days now.

My options:
1) replace the K3 integrated with Caspian M2 integrated amplifier
2) connect in pre-amp/power amp format the K3 integrated with K3 power amplifier
3) I’m not sure here, but to keep the pre-amp/power amp format, connect K3 integrated with Caspian M2 power amp

I am keeping the B&W speaker with above options.

Let me know your ideas.

Later,
TY

 

[twinkletoes]

Hi there and welcome . In my humble opinion you won’t notice an absolute difference. The differences in amps is very slight at best. Especially when staying within the brand.

It’s like updating an iPhone, the experience is the same just a little fast faster.

My advice if you wanted to make difference your looking at the wrong component, Speakers will give you the biggest change but you have stated you don’t want to change them.

Put simply stay put buy music

But by all means if you have money burning a hole, Audition the products on your list and have some fun.

 

[tytang]

Thank you very much for your reply. I thought about that of course. In fact, I have upgraded the speaker 2 years back.

Here's the background. The speaker is the costliest item in the path (£2100), the rest CD transport (£500), DAC (£1500) and K3 amp (£1500). The K3 amp now cost less than £1000.

I know that there is a new amp from Roksan just announced (Caspian 4G). I won't get it as it will be overpriced. Like I said I can wait. In the meantime, the price of power amplifiers of K3 and Caspian has starting to drop.

The options I have thus come into play. I love the hobby of the hi fi world. That's why it's fascinating and one need to ask many questions in the journey.

 

[plastic penguin]

You hear a difference with a better amp but you'll need something like a Roksan Blak or for a different flavour Leema Tucana MK2. Although not made anymore, the Anniversary version is too expensive, the basic MK2 is widely available.

 

[twinkletoes]

Thank you very much for your reply. I thought about that of course. In fact, I have upgraded the speaker 2 years back.

Here's the background. The speaker is the costliest item in the path (£2100), the rest CD transport (£500), DAC (£1500) and K3 amp (£1500). The K3 amp now cost less than £1000.

I know that there is a new amp from Roksan just announced (Caspian 4G). I won't get it as it will be overpriced. Like I said I can wait. In the meantime, the price of power amplifiers of K3 and Caspian has starting to drop.

The options I have thus come into play. I love the hobby of the hi fi world. That's why it's fascinating and one need to ask many questions in the journey.

As long as the amp has enough grunt to drive the speakers and unless you have very decearning ear there will be little difference. What you may notice if the Caspian 4g has more "power" (not necessarily watts) is less strained when turned up loud, it may deliver its sound with less effort. Looking at the spec of your speakers they do require a bit of juice to run to there fullest just dropping under 4ohms but id say your amp has enough juice.

BUT your speakers are small and will reach a point when turned up where they start to compress (all small speakers do this), they may do this before even your current amplifier struggles deliver. So the advantages gained over the "better" amp are lost (this is just one example) can you see what i'm saying? its not as easy as saying "buying this expensive thing is better".

You have matched price wise you're amp pretty well to your speakers id say everything you have is In the same price range 1500-2500rrp.

Making small jumps within product ranges I fail to see the point I just don't hear the differences and anybody that says they can Id look upon with great scepticism . 1500/2k jumping 5-6k yeah you will hear a difference (just) 2k jumping 3k its just not worth it unless it has a feature set you want, like an inbuilt dac on the whole this is mostly companies pushing what a component is worth. ie greed.

You can see this in some companies ranges, technics for example they sell a mid range 2.5k amp the next run up the ladder for them is 7k monster and when you reed the reviews they all say the same thing the 2.5k amp steps on the toes of the 7k. Yes there's a difference it's a 4.5krrp jump but the differences are very very slight. What would I buy? the 2.5k amp its the better amp pound for pound.

Im rambling a bit, basically Hand on heart I can sit here and say you'll hear a difference between your and that amp I think it will be very unlikely given many factors some of which ive outlined above.

 

[tytang]

You hear a difference with a better amp but you'll need something like a Roksan Blak or for a different flavour Leema Tucana MK2. Although not made anymore, the Anniversary version is too expensive, the basic MK2 is widely available.

Thanks for your feedback. Can you define “better”? I assume amp with higher grade components, therefore costlier? Gosh, that Tucana is a whopper, costing £4300! And I like that it pumps out 150W. So, this implies going for option 1 in my earliest post.

 

[Al ears]

Thanks for your feedback. Can you define “better”? I assume amp with higher grade components, therefore costlier? Gosh, that Tucana is a whopper, costing £4300! And I like that it pumps out 150W. So, this implies going for option 1 in my earliest post.

Which ever you decide to do it is uneconomic to use an integrated amp purely as a preamp.
Depending on your sources and budget I might suggest several other integrated amps that might be an upgrade.
What are your sources?

 

[tytang]

As long as the amp has enough grunt to drive the speakers and unless you have very decearning ear there will be little difference. What you may notice if the Caspian 4g has more "power" (not necessarily watts) is less strained when turned up loud, it may deliver its sound with less effort. Looking at the spec of your speakers they do require a bit of juice to run to there fullest just dropping under 4ohms but id say your amp has enough juice.

BUT your speakers are small and will reach a point when turned up where they start to compress (all small speakers do this), they may do this before even your current amplifier struggles deliver. So the advantages gained over the "better" amp are lost (this is just one example) can you see what i'm saying? its not as easy as saying "buying this expensive thing is better".

You have matched price wise you're amp pretty well to your speakers id say everything you have is In the same price range 1500-2500rrp.

Making small jumps within product ranges I fail to see the point I just don't hear the differences and anybody that says they can Id look upon with great scepticism . 1500/2k jumping 5-6k yeah you will hear a difference (just) 2k jumping 3k its just not worth it unless it has a feature set you want, like an inbuilt dac on the whole this is mostly companies pushing what a component is worth. ie greed.

You can see this in some companies ranges, technics for example they sell a mid range 2.5k amp the next run up the ladder for them is 7k monster and when you reed the reviews they all say the same thing the 2.5k amp steps on the toes of the 7k. Yes there's a difference it's a 4.5krrp jump but the differences are very very slight. What would I buy? the 2.5k amp its the better amp pound for pound.

Im rambling a bit, basically Hand on heart I can sit here and say you'll hear a difference between your and that amp I think it will be very unlikely given many factors some of which ive outlined above.

Thanks for your input. I like your thinking. Key points raised:
1) Limitation of current speaker
2) Sound quality improves significantly with significant price point increase

1) your feedback is spot on. Yes I have plan to continue my journey. Current speaker is not my end state. I would like to see my journey end with a speaker in the range £5000 to £7000. No more. Also given my limited living room space, floorstander is out of the question. The K3 has enough juice 150W driving the 607, which requires 30W-120W 8Ω. Yes so far so good

2) your second key input, that’s more profound. Now it forces me to think deeper. It is undeniable that hi fi company must make profits. Hence, as consumer, we gotta be more savvy. Your pound-for-pound idea, that’s a good start to ponder where to invest our hard-earned money. However, I wouldn’t make the big jump (£4.5k) to actually see an immediate end-point in sound quality. If so, then the journey ends, and that’s not fun.

I also need to ask myself what do I really want for “better sound”. Actually, I have spent more on CDs; there are a lot more bargains these days. I really have enjoyed my music so far. Although I love the sound of music from CD - it’s clarity & crispness - I can’t deny the streaming technology has closed the gap. My current streamer (Arcam ST60) is awfully good playing from Tidal service. I think I would like to hear deeper voice-textured sound, bigger soundstage and less rumbling bass, but more taut. Bass! Yeah, some time down the road, my current B&W 610, will fall on the way side. However, stereo sound matters more to me than home-theatre sound.

 

[RoA]

Your amplifier is a good one.

 

[tytang]

Which ever you decide to do it is uneconomic to use an integrated amp purely as a preamp.
Depending on your sources and budget I might suggest several other integrated amps that might be an upgrade.
What are your sources?

Thanks for your input. Appreciate. I have that question too, about using integrated as preamp. It’s quite foolish I must say. Therefore, my initial option 1 comes to mind. I have learned that companies do this all the time, release an integrated amp first, then later a “matching” power amp. They probably must have gathered sufficient knowledge a stand-alone preamp wouldn’t sell. Hence, my options 2 & 3 come into my head.

My sources are mostly CD and streaming (Tidal). My hardware: Cambridge Audio CXC 2, Arcam ST-60 streamer/DAC and Oppo UDP 203.

What do you suggest (int amp)?

 

[Al ears]

Thanks for your input. Appreciate. I have that question too, about using integrated as preamp. It’s quite foolish I must say. Therefore, my initial option 1 comes to mind. I have learned that companies do this all the time, release an integrated amp first, then later a “matching” power amp. They probably must have gathered sufficient knowledge a stand-alone preamp wouldn’t sell. Hence, my options 2 & 3 come into my head.

My sources are mostly CD and streaming (Tidal). My hardware: Cambridge Audio CXC 2, Arcam ST-60 streamer/DAC and Oppo UDP 203.

What do you suggest (int amp)?

So you need an amplifier that doesn't include a DAC and you do not own a turntable?
What is your maximum budget?
i would suggest, although it has both, the Musical Fidelity M6si and its a lot cheaper than a Leema Tucana.....

 

[tytang]

Your amplifier is a good one.

Thanks. For some time I have NAD, many Marantzes, many Arcams along the journey until I stop at K3. I just love the Roksan sound. It’s very vocal-oriented.

 

[tytang]

So you need an amplifier that doesn't include a DAC and you do not own a turntable?
What is your maximum budget?
i would suggest, although it has both, the Musical Fidelity M6si and its a lot cheaper than a Leema Tucana.....

Right. I don’t need a DAC. In fact, for outboard DAC, I am very keen to snatch a bargain Chord Qutest. For some time on int amp, I was thinking of Hegel, Naim, Rega. My budget is £3000 rrp. I am not so keen on latest models.

 

[tytang]

Right. I don’t need a DAC. In fact, for outboard DAC, I am very keen to snatch a bargain Chord Qutest. For some time on int amp, I was thinking of Hegel, Naim, Rega. My budget is £3000 rrp. I am not so keen on latest models.

I do not own a turntable

 

[Al ears]

That is my pointRight. I don’t need a DAC. In fact, for outboard DAC, I am very keen to snatch a bargain Chord Qutest. For some time on int amp, I was thinking of Hegel, Naim, Rega. My budget is £3000 rrp. I am not so keen on latest models.

I see. Out of your list I would be looking at Hegel but don't they include a DAC?
That is my point. No point in paying for an amp that has an internal DAC or phono stage if you do not need one.

 

[nopiano]

I see. Out of your list I would be looking at Hegel but don't they include a DAC?
That is my point. No point in paying for an amp that has an internal DAC or phono stage if you do not need one.

I would too, and actually the presence of a DAC isn’t a factor that would worry me, especially if buying used. For that £3k you’d get a recent used Hegel H390 which outplays pretty much anything short of a £5 grand pre-power setup, or its successor, the £5900 H400.

A harder to find, but similar high end integrated amp is the (Rotel) Michi X3, which like the Hegel has been revised to a v2 model at the same price as a H400. The original was still a monster and retailed at £4,300 so should be well under three grand now.

 

[tytang]

I see. Out of your list I would be looking at Hegel but don't they include a DAC?
That is my point. No point in paying for an amp that has an internal DAC or phono stage if you do not need one.

Unfortunately, Hegel amp does include a DAC. I do keep in mind this well-regarded amp (most of them, esp H390) though. The price has dropped somewhat.

 

[tytang]

I would too, and actually the presence of a DAC isn’t a factor that would worry me, especially if buying used. For that £3k you’d get a recent used Hegel H390 which outplays pretty much anything short of a £5 grand pre-power setup, or its successor, the £5900 H400.

A harder to find, but similar high end integrated amp is the (Rotel) Michi X3, which like the Hegel has been revised to a v2 model at the same price as a H400. The original was still a monster and retailed at £4,300 so should be well under three grand now.

I totally agree. The well-regarded H390 is in my list. I can wait for a lower price unit. I'm also thinking about the H190 as well.

The X3 S2 I had a chance to listen to in the studio. It has 350W. Muscular sound, very detailed, wide soundstaging. However, the sound was fatiguing as I find it a bit harsh. The demo used unit was selling for £2500.

 

[tytang]

So you need an amplifier that doesn't include a DAC and you do not own a turntable?
What is your maximum budget?
i would suggest, although it has both, the Musical Fidelity M6si and its a lot cheaper than a Leema Tucana.....

The MF M6si I am doing more check on this. Not bad, pretty good based on thus far my finding. Price is also good for a used unit.

 

[tytang]

You hear a difference with a better amp but you'll need something like a Roksan Blak or for a different flavour Leema Tucana MK2. Although not made anymore, the Anniversary version is too expensive, the basic MK2 is widely available.

The Roksan Blak is an awesome amp, but I'm not sure how my subwoofer can be connected. I don't see analog pre-outs. Does anyone know?

 

[njprrogers]

I have been in a similar situation of late. I have a mild dose of upgraditis but am not willing to pay 4k or 5k and whilst happy with my speakers fear that a change of amp will not lead to a significant upgrade in sound except under critical listening scenarios. And honestly, I mostly just listen to the music.

The thing that does appeal and I feel could make a difference in my scenario with a tricky enough room is room correction. And reading around, to me the best at room correction for my purposes is Lyngdorf i.e. set and forget. So if you want to try something new, you could consider a Lyngdorf TDAI-1120. Room Perfect gets rave reviews and might make more of a difference than just a change in amp.

 

[nopiano]

I totally agree. The well-regarded H390 is in my list. I can wait for a lower price unit. I'm also thinking about the H190 as well.

The X3 S2 I had a chance to listen to in the studio. It has 350W. Muscular sound, very detailed, wide soundstaging. However, the sound was fatiguing as I find it a bit harsh. The demo used unit was selling for £2500.

I’d personally pass on any H190 and choose a Primare I35 instead. I usually avoid recommending things I own, but I’ve been delighted with my I32 since 2017, and the newer one is by most accounts better by a margin. Several I35 for £2-£3k used and £3450 new without DAC - which can be added later. They make a nice CD player or transport if you like a matching set.

Advice re Subwoofers here, as some class D designs don’t cooperate.

https://helpdesk.primare.net/hc/en-us/articles/4410185784594-What-is-the-recommended-high-level-subwoofer-connection-scheme-with-Primare-amplifiers

 

[tytang]

I have been in a similar situation of late. I have a mild dose of upgraditis but am not willing to pay 4k or 5k and whilst happy with my speakers fear that a change of amp will not lead to a significant upgrade in sound except under critical listening scenarios. And honestly, I mostly just listen to the music.

The thing that does appeal and I feel could make a difference in my scenario with a tricky enough room is room correction. And reading around, to me the best at room correction for my purposes is Lyngdorf i.e. set and forget. So if you want to try something new, you could consider a Lyngdorf TDAI-1120. Room Perfect gets rave reviews and might make more of a difference than just a change in amp.

Gosh, this is something new to me. Thanks for the suggestion. I am checking this out. Great stuff!

 

[tytang]

I’d personally pass on any H190 and choose a Primare I35 instead. I usually avoid recommending things I own, but I’ve been delighted with my I32 since 2017, and the newer one is by most accounts better by a margin. Several I35 for £2-£3k used and £3450 new without DAC - which can be added later. They make a nice CD player or transport if you like a matching set.

Advice re Subwoofers here, as some class D designs don’t cooperate.

https://helpdesk.primare.net/hc/en-us/articles/4410185784594-What-is-the-recommended-high-level-subwoofer-connection-scheme-with-Primare-amplifiers

Here’s another brilliant suggestion. Thanks very much. I have heard of Primare and reading it’s a great high-end gear. But I have never looked into it seriously before. But I am checking this out now.

 

[Stuart83]

Maybe I'm not best to comment as I prefer my Arcam over the k3 although it's undeniably a good amp hence I kept hold of it but after upgrading my speakers it lost its charm.
I found I prefer Arcam but it wasn't a big price jump at the time that gave me the improvement it was the type of dare I say it "house sound" the Arcam produces that I liked more not unlike you but the other way round.

Although I tried more expensive amps I found the differences were small until the prices jumped considerably then of course like everything else in life they get better especially when hitting the super analytical stuff I drool over where the quality of the musical source and copy becomes ever more important but it's house buying prices.

The other comments people have made make sense and unless paying much more I've found the difference isn't as apparent as jumping brand to a different type of dare I say it "house sound" so I'd of recommended trying different brands but you've journeyed to liking the roskans already so unless your planning on considerably upping the budget then it seems to be a common experience of nothing really changes around the same price bracket.

Of course there is the odd exceptions to the rule where something a little special comes along like the k3 is in its own right.

The heaven 11 Billie amp has caught my interest as something I'd like to hear as it's gathering quite a reputation as something a little special within my preferences.