Upgrade Cartridge or Phono Stage?

[Al ears]

In my experience I would agree with stevebrock et al. Moving Coils have their own subtle differences compared to moving magnets. It may just be me but I feel that a decent MC appears to have a greater dynamic range (which it probably doesn't) and sounds 'fuller' across the entire frequency spectrum.

I also feel that cheap hi-output mC's are a waste of money as you can easily improve on them by getting a similarly priced moving magnet these days. I don't know where the cost to performance crossover point comes as I have gone for a low-output moving coil myself.

I would hazard a guess that unless you have £500 to spend then there is little point in going for a low output MC, which often means you have to buy a phono preamp as well as the cartridge, considering the quality of moving magnet cartridges now available.

 

[Freddy58]

In my experience I would agree with stevebrock et al. Moving Coils have their own subtle differences compared to moving magnets. It may just be me but I feel that a decent MC appears to have a greater dynamic range (which it probably doesn't) and sounds 'fuller' across the entire frequency spectrum.

I also feel that cheap hi-output mC's are a waste of money as you can easily improve on them by getting a similarly priced moving magnet these days. I don't know where the cost to performance crossover point comes as I have gone for a low-output moving coil myself.

I would hazard a guess that unless you have £500 to spend then there is little point in going for a low output MC, which often means you have to buy a phono preamp as well as the cartridge, considering the quality of moving magnet cartridges now available.

Thanks Al

 

[JohnNB]

Since I've just got the K2 I'm going to use it for a few years, so thanks for the great advice and info. I think in terms of hi fi I'm in the 3rd division! I'll upgrade to a better MM as the next step to hi fi heaven (Eddie Cochran was wrong, there are more than 3 steps to heaven, each one more expensive than the last!)

 

[Al ears]

Since I've just got the K2 I'm going to use it for a few years, so thanks for the great advice and info. I think in terms of hi fi I'm in the 3rd division! I'll upgrade to a better MM as the next step to hi fi heaven (Eddie Cochran was wrong, there are more than 3 steps to heaven, each one more expensive than the last!)

Good to hear. For once (and it is rare I'll admit) I would have to disagree with Plastic Penguin's comment on a better amp. The Roksans I have had in the past, including the Kandy LIII, have been very good indeed. The phono stage, as you would expect from a turntable manufacturer, is very good and you will need to spend quite a bit to get an external phono stage that betters it.

As you have said you have had the 160 for a number of years and it is getting on a bit. The comment about replacing it is valid if you intend to stick with vinyl long term. It's a fine TT but time will tell as they say and perhaps a good service might be required to check the electrical components side of things. I would tend to agree that if in it for the long term then starting with a modern deck might be a good idea.

Anyway, enjoy your vinyl... and Eddie Cochran if that is what you are into.

 

[plastic penguin]

Since I've just got the K2 I'm going to use it for a few years, so thanks for the great advice and info. I think in terms of hi fi I'm in the 3rd division! I'll upgrade to a better MM as the next step to hi fi heaven (Eddie Cochran was wrong, there are more than 3 steps to heaven, each one more expensive than the last!)

Good to hear. For once (and it is rare I'll admit) I would have to disagree with Plastic Penguin's comment on a better amp. The Roksans I have had in the past, including the Kandy LIII, have been very good indeed. The phono stage, as you would expect from a turntable manufacturer, is very good and you will need to spend quite a bit to get an external phono stage that betters it.

Fair enough - it was a general observation. I like the Kandys and think they have excellent phono stages, but if you're looking at making the most a good quality MC cart then maybe the rest should be looked at first, including, perhaps, amp and TT.

 

[davedotco]

I have an Thorens TD160 tt with a Logic Basic tonearm played through a Roksan Kandy amp and a Rega Mini Phono stage into Spendor SP1 speakers. I recently replaced an Orofon cartirdge with a Golding 2100. The Ortofon was lively and bright and I'm dissappointed with the dull sound of the Goldring. Can anyone advise if I should go for a different phono stage to liven up the sound from the cartridge, or should I replace the cartridge?

JohnNB

Good record players are expensive, require careful matching of TT to arm and cartridge, careful setting up and proper support.

I have no real idea how well or otherwise your current combination works, though clearly not well by your opening post. Recent experience suggest that few dealers have much of an idea about setting up and matching such combinations so results in cases like this can be hit or miss.

This is one reason, I think, for the move to more 'integrated', almost plug and play solution from Rega, Project, Clearaudio and the like.

In your situation I would do the following.

Go back to the Ortofon, buy a new stylus or a replacement unit as appropriate.

Go to a Linn dealer and get him to show you how to setup up the arm, including how to remove the arm and fit the cartridge properly. If you do not have them, get him to supply you with some headshell fixing bolts and the allen key to fit them. Make sure you also have the correct allen key to unlock the arm piller and remove the arm.

Care fully unlock the arm, lift it out from the mount, unplugging the arm cable as you go. Then remove the fitted cartridge carefull using long nosed plyers to handle the tags.

Then fit you new cartridge using the new bolts, if the stylus is removable it is easier to do this with it removed. Do the bolts up tight, usually from underneath the cartridge. Set it in the center of the slots in the headshell and make sure the cartridge is absolukely straight, front to back. Use the slots as a guide, refit the stylus if it has been removed.

Refit the arm tightly, and adjust for tracking weight towards the higher end of the manufacturers guidlines, leave the bias on zero at this time and place the stylus on a stationary record. Set the arm so that it is very slightly higher at the pivot, ie the arm slpes down very gently to the stylus end. If the slope is obvious, it is too much, it should be very gentle. Set the bias to approx one half to two thirds of the tracking weight.

With the arm on it's rest check the suspension of the turntable, it should be able to move freely up and sown, about a quarter of an inch, without any catching or binding of any kind. Tap the platter firmly between the spindle and the arem pivot to check this.

Support the player on a light rigid support, a table or minimalsist shelf, avoid heavy furniture. Make sure the support is firm, that it does not rock or rattle and that the surface supporting the player is horizontal.

You are good to go.

 

[Al ears]

All very well explained but I see absolutely no reason for half of it.

Why remove a perfectly set up arm just to fit a cartridge? Or have I missed a point somewhere along the line? :?

 

[davedotco]

All very well explained but I see absolutely no reason for half of it.

Why remove a perfectly set up arm just to fit a cartridge? Or have I missed a point somewhere along the line? :?

Even assuming the arm is 'perfectly set up', a new cartridge will change all that, it is also much easier to fit a cartridge, align it, and tighten correctly in the headshell if the arm is removed.

Whilst not an advocate of extreme 'Linn tight' levels I think it is important to fit the cartridge properly and, yes, nice and tight. It also protects the bearings, you are applying quite a lot of force on the end of a longish lever. If the cartridge is metal bodied, the first point there is any 'give', is the arm bearings, they can be damaged, I have seen it done.

Record players respond to the what is today known as 'marginal improvements', each aspect of what I outlined above builds one on another to produce a marked improvement. I have left out much of the nonsense from the Linn era, just focussing on the basics.

I find it hard to believe that a vinyl enthusiast would not make sure his player is properly set up.

 

[JohnNB]

Thanks for this very detailed advice Dave. I am pretty confident that the arm and cartridge are set up properly. I've been using the technician who did it for many years and he's very good. He did the very tricky job of fitting the Linn arm to my deck, and he replaced the suspension at the same time. I will bear your points in mind though when I have him fit the new cartridge - I wouldn't dare attempt to work on the arm myself. I might try replacing the Goldring with the old Ortofon though before deciding on the make of cartridge to buy.

John

 

[JohnNB]

The Eddie Cochran reference was just for the joke. If I was a fan I'd surely have to play his records on a Dansete!!

 

[davedotco]

Thanks for this very detailed advice Dave. I am pretty confident that the arm and cartridge are set up properly. I've been using the technician who did it for many years and he's very good. He did the very tricky job of fitting the Linn arm to my deck, and he replaced the suspension at the same time. I will bear your points in mind though when I have him fit the new cartridge - I wouldn't dare attempt to work on the arm. I might try replacing the Goldring with the old Ortofon though before deciding on the make of cartridge to buy.

John

If your technician is as good as you say then he will do most of what I described as a matter of course, it looks far more complex written down than it actually is to do, it is simple good practice.

Fit a new stylus to the Ortofon and get it refitted, or upgrade to one of the better ones as suggested above.

This leaves the final question of turntable support. The turntable suspension will do a good job of isolation at certain frequencies but will not be so effective at low frequencies. This can cause issues with low frequency vibrations, generated by the music, getting into the player and mudying the bass.

Fortunately the remedy is simple, a lightweight, yet rigid floor table or a wallshelf just big enough to take the player and nothing else, ideally with a loose (decoupled) but stable shelf.

 

[JohnNB]

The turntable is on a dedicated shelf isolated from the rest of the equipment. Don't get me wrong, the cartridge sounds very good, but just not as bright and lively as the Ortofon. This seems to be a characteristic of the Goldring - one dealer told me they had stopped stocking Goldring for this reason. I think it's a matter of taste and matching. I've listened to lots of different speakers and my SP1s do not easily produce a sound that jumps out and grabs you like some modern speakers I've heard, so I think a brighter cartridge would bemore pleasing to my ears.

John

 

[davedotco]

The turntable is on a dedicated shelf isolated from the rest of the equipment. Don't get me wrong, the cartridge sounds very good, but just not as bright and lively as the Ortofon. This seems to be a characteristic of the Goldring - one dealer told me they had stopped stocking Goldring for this reason. I think it's a matter of taste and matching. I've listened to lots of different speakers and my SP1s do not easily produce a sound that jumps out and grabs you like some modern speakers I've heard, so I think a brighter cartridge would bemore pleasing to my ears.

John

Excellent, you seem to have a pretty good handle on what is going on.

Personally I was rarely that impressed with Goldring cartridges, for exactly the reasons you say, given that both your amp and speakers are biased towards the 'dark' side tonally and dynamically I think a brighter, more focussed cartridge would be a big help.

Final word on the turntable support, make sure the shelf is 'decoupled', ie not rigidly fixed on the brackets, and you seem good to go.

 

[JohnNB]

It's a shelf is made by Target and designed for turntables Dave. The tt sits on wood that rests within the shelf's metal frame. Is that what you mean by decoupled?

John

 

[davedotco]

It's a shelf is made by Target and designed for turntables Dave. The tt sits on wood that rests within the shelf's metal frame. Is that what you mean by decoupled?

John

Absoluely, exactly what you need.... :beer:

Next step is up to you, you say you have a Linn Basik arm, which one is it?

That will determine the quality of the cartridge you can use, if it is an older version, you could look for a used Akito, same fixing, easy upgrade. You can then look to a modest moving coil cartridge it that is the way you want to go. Need a new phono though.

The world is, as Arthur would say, your mousetrap. Enjoy.

 

[JohnNB]

I think I'll stay at the MM stage for now - the world of MCs seems like another minefield I'm not ready for yet! The Basik arm has the fixed headshell, which I believe is the later and better model?

John

 

[davedotco]

I think I'll stay at the MM stage for now - the world of MCs seems like another minefield I'm not ready for yet! The Basik arm has the fixed headshell, which I believe is the later and better model?

John

The 'Basik Plus' (LVX+). Decent arm though better suited to mm cartridges anyway.

Not really trying to spend your money but I have to say that I always found a decent 'coil to be a big upgrade over mm in general terms. Clearly the player has to be up to it but the advantages in openness, clarity and shear spaciousness won me over every time.

 

[JohnNB]

I've got so much vinyl, which I'm listening to more and more since having the Thorens fixed, so a MC upgrade is an enticing prospect maybe in a couple of years time. Would you suggest changing the Basik arm (is the Atiko suggestion a tonearm?) and keeping the deck, or starting afresh with a new deck - I.e. would the Thorens with a new tonearm be good enough for a MC cartridge?

 

[davedotco]

I've got so much vinyl, which I'm listening to more and more since having the Thorens fixed, so a MC upgrade is an enticing prospect maybe in a couple of years time. Would you suggest changing the Basik arm (is the Atiko suggestion a tonearm?) and keeping the deck, or starting afresh with a new deck - I.e. would the Thorens with a new tonearm be good enough for a MC cartridge?

A year or three back I went to visit an old friend who runs a 'traditional' two channel hi-fi consultancy with a marked preference for vinyl and valves. He had a pretty serious system set up that was of course amazing. The cost was frightening so we also tried a complete system that cost rather less than the cartridge in the main system.

I thought it was excellent, outstanding given the 'just over' £3k price. The most impressive component was the player, a Clearaudio Concept MC, which has since reduced slightly in price to about £1400 complete. If you were considering a serious upgrade, that is where I would suggest you start looking.

You will need a mc phono stage though, Clearaudio offer the decent entry level Nano phono stage for about £230, but there are plenty of options.

 

[JohnNB]

Lovely idea Dave but would a turntable of this quality need me to upgrade my Roksan K2? I'm sure the SP1s would be adequate, but I fear the amp would then be lagging behind.

 

[davedotco]

Lovely idea Dave but would a turntable of this quality need me to upgrade my Roksan K2? I'm sure the SP1s would be adequate, but I fear the amp would then be lagging behind.

Depends on how much you like the amp, it tends to be a bit 'marmite'.

Vladimir (on this forum) loves his, wheras as others are not so sure, considering it to be a bit of a heavyweight and lacking in agility and refinement.

At some point you simply have to make a desicion as to the level you want to go to and stop. Otherwise you just go on for ever.

 

[JohnNB]

I like the Roksan - solid amd muscular. The Clearaudios I've seen all come with factory a factory fitted MM cartridge. Presumably they can be changed to MCs?

 

[davedotco]

I like the Roksan - solid amd muscular. The Clearaudios I've seen all come with factory a factory fitted MM cartridge. Presumably they can be changed to MCs?

You are with Vlad then, no problem.

The Clearaudio Concept is sold in mm and mc versions, both factory fitted. About £1k for the mm, £1400 for the mc. They are about as 'plug and play' as you can get at this level of performance. Bare in mind that you will need to budget £200-500 for a mc phono stage, so not that cheap.