Turntable Upgrade - The Concept of Rega

[Drummerdave]

Hello all, hoping you can help with some advice/recommendations.

I'm hoing to be upgrading my turntable in a couple of months when funds permit, and would appreciate some guidance.

I own a few hundred LPs which I bought back in the day and have started buying some new vinyl. I currently play them on my Project Debut, through a Cambridge Audio Azur 551P connected to an AVI Lab Series Integrated and AVI Duo speakers.

The two contenders at the moment are the new Rega Planar 3 and Clearaudio Concept. I realise that the Concept is probably a step up from the Rega but both would surely be a big step up from the Project.

I'm comparing these turntables as follows:-

Pros - Rega is less expensive, has a lid, a matching phono stage and power supply, both of which could be purchased later as further upgrades.

Cons - In basic form the Rega's platter requires removal to change speed.

Pros - The Clearaudio is more of a high end design with sound and build quality to match. Plug and play.

Cons - No lid, which will have to be bought separately.

My old vinyl collection is mainly rock/prog with some jazz and blues thrown in i.e. Zep, Rush, ACDC, Bowie, Yes, Genesis, VH, SRV, Sabbath etc...

I'd be grateful for any comments.

Thanks.

DD

 

[BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW]

I can't help much, if at all, but I did have a Clearaudio Concept for about 5 minutes (it arrived damaged), and although I didn't hear it in action, it didn't strike me as a great looking deck, and I didn't bother with looking for another.

It might well be a great sounding deck, i don't know, but It's dull looking IMHO.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Before upgrading to any turntable..try a wee cartridge upgrade first . I'm assuming you have the supplied cart on the debut (what was it)?

 

[Drummerdave]

not that keen on the look of it, haven't seen one in the flesh mind.

 

[Drummerdave]

Before upgrading to any turntable..try a wee cartridge upgrade first . I'm assuming you have the supplied cart on the debut (what was it)?

It's an Ortofon of some kind, not sure which one, The deck is quite old, over 10 years.

 

[BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW]

not that keen on the look of it, haven't seen one in the flesh mind.

I quite liked the look of it in the pictures | saw, but when it arrived, it just looked really dull, and not particularly well made.

I ended up with a used Roksan Radius 5.2, which is a nice looking, great sounding deck, but the motor has packed up twice since I've had it, and it's still noisy now, so I wouldn't recommend one.

 

[BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW]

Before upgrading to any turntable..try a wee cartridge upgrade first . I'm assuming you have the supplied cart on the debut (what was it)?

It's an Ortofon of some kind, not sure which one, The deck is quite old, over 10 years.

It'll most likely be a 5E, which is pretty bog standard.

MRS has a point about a cartridge upgrade, but I went from a Debut to my Roksan, and a cartridge upgrade alone wouldn't have given me the vinyl listening pleasure I now have.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Well...while deciding what tt to eventually get.try a cart from audiotechnica,nagaoka,ortofon (at least 2m blue)or shure.It will transform the current sound from the debut.I had the first xpression from 2004 with ortofon om10 and changed it to the 2m blue and the difference was quite remarkable considering I was very sceptical of what such upgrades brought to the system.It really should be the first thing you try,I'm not saying you won't want or need another turntable (I did)but just saying it's not something that should be overlooked or regarded as a small upgrade it's probably the best bang for buck your likely to get.

 

[keeper of the quays]

I'm not sure what type of feet your turntable has but if they are cupped? Try filling the void with those juggling balls (like Mini bean bags) you can squidge them about to get level..they don't cost much and worth trying..what I did with my turntable is I put blu tac between arm assembly and platter and the same between headshell and cart! Worked for me.

 

[NSA_watch_my_toilet]

The Power supply of the Rega, if it works the same as for the RP3, is absolutely for nothing. It offers asbolutely no sound improvement at all. If you want proofs of that I can send you mesures. It's just a fantastic placebo box.

I don't believe that the Planar 3 will be that much of an audible improvement in regard of your actual Pro-Ject Debut. Probably a little bit in overall quality, but the wow and flutter levels are present, and lots of rumble is playing in the background.

RP3

Wow and flutter for RP3, mesured by independant sources is at 0.118%, noisefloor is around 72.5dB and, on the bench, lots of pertubartion are going through. It's not bad, but not good either.

Concept1000

For the Cleraudio Concept, it is around 0.65% when mesured by independent sources (inaudible level, fitting standard 1970's Din norms, allowing him to be called "Hi-Fi") . Noisefloor is at 81 dB. Isolation to perturbation is better too, even if I lost the actual mesure of that I had in stock.

This would have major consequences in the sound quality and ability to reproduce silences. The clearaudio will present the sound on a darker, less polluted stage, and will offer, by performant enough cartidges, a better ability to pinpoint and track sounds with a more dynamic feel. He has all the physical advantages in his hand. The RP3 is clearly inferior.

I'm using Clearaudio shells myself (symphony V2) and had numerous occasions to see the TT's of clearaudio performing in the locals of the old swiss Clearaudio dealership. I lost contact to him in the last years, because he switched to other brands, but those TT's were never disappointing.

Everybody is free, but I would not waste my money on the Rega.

 

[MajorFubar]

With regards to upgrading your current Project, you say it's about ten years old, some of the early Debut turntables had a fixed counterweight on the tonearm and so really you couldn't change the cartridge, only upgrade the stylus for one further up the OM line. But even that presumes all the OM stylii are the same weight and should be played at the same tracking force.

 

[Drummerdave]

The Power supply of the Rega, if it works the same as for the RP3, is absolutely for nothing. It offers asbolutely no sound improvement at all. If you want proofs of that I can send you mesures. It's just a fantastic placebo box.

I don't believe that the Planar 3 will be that much of an audible improvement in regard of your actual Pro-Ject Debut. Probably a little bit in overall quality, but the wow and flutter levels are present, and lots of rumble is playing in the background.

RP3

Wow and flutter for RP3, mesured by independant sources is at 0.118%, noisefloor is around 72.5dB and, on the bench, lots of pertubartion are going through. It's not bad, but not good either.

Concept1000

For the Cleraudio Concept, it is around 0.65% when mesured by independent sources (inaudible level, fitting standard 1970's Din norms, allowing him to be called "Hi-Fi") . Noisefloor is at 81 dB. Isolation to perturbation is better too, even if I lost the actual mesure of that I had in stock.

This would have major consequences in the sound quality and ability to reproduce silences. The clearaudio will present the sound on a darker, less polluted stage, and will offer, by performant enough cartidges, a better ability to pinpoint and track sounds with a more dynamic feel. He has all the physical advantages in his hand. The RP3 is clearly inferior.

I'm using Clearaudio shells myself (symphony V2) and had numerous occasions to see the TT's of clearaudio performing in the locals of the old swiss Clearaudio dealership. I lost contact to him in the last years, because he switched to other brands, but those TT's were never disappointing.

Everybody is free, but I would not waste my money on the Rega.

I'm not sure I understand all the technical stuff about the noise floor etc, but the gist of what you're saying is that the Rega is not worth considering becasue it's no better than my Project. Would that be right?

 

[GeoffreyW]

DrummerDave, unless you're going to have listening sessions playing both 33s and 45, at random and are totally disorganised, or have dexterity problems, you only need to change speeds once per session, possibly twice, so please don't dismiss the Rega on that basis. I recently upgraded from my old (80s) Planar 3 to an RP3, changed the Nagaoka MP110 between decks, and was amazed at the improvement, and haven't heard the new P3, so can't comment, but being a Rega fan, it's the direction I'd certainly like to go.

If your budget allows, consider the Nag. MP200 cartridge.

 

[paul darwin]

Thanks NSA_Watch_my_toilet

Given that we have not yet sent any of the new Planar 3 turntables to our dealers or distributors worldwide, and therefore you could not have listened to one, I am not sure how you can be so certain that it will not offer any improvement over the Project Debut or the outgoing RP3 as you suggest. Also, to be so assertive that the TTPSU adds no benefit whatsoever to the RP3 suggests that you have extensive experience of the combination, would you care to explain and also provide the measurements you quote.

If, as you suggest from you figures, the wow and flutter on the RP3 is 0.118%, (from whatever source you are quoting), and the Clearaudio is 0.65% does that not mean that the RP3 is over 5 times better and not "clearly inferior" as you suggest.

The dictionary definition of peturbation is "anxiety" or "mental uneasiness" hmmmm, not entirely sure how this could be used in a HiFi context.

As for "wasting your money on the Rega" I would hope and encourage everyone to be free to compare all available turntables and make their choice on the basis of what sounds best to them.

Paul Darwin

Rega Research

 

[Drummerdave]

DrummerDave, unless you're going to have listening sessions playing both 33s and 45, at random and are totally disorganised, or have dexterity problems, you only need to change speeds once per session, possibly twice, so please don't dismiss the Rega on that basis. I recently upgraded from my old (80s) Planar 3 to an RP3, changed the Nagaoka MP110 between decks, and was amazed at the improvement, and haven't heard the new P3, so can't comment, but being a Rega fan, it's the direction I'd certainly like to go.

If your budget allows, consider the Nag. MP200 cartridge.

No, I definitely haven't dismissed the Rega and it wouldn't be because of a speed change issue Geoff. The local dealer will be getting the new P3s in so I should be able to go and have a listen.

 

[Al ears]

Thanks NSA_Watch_my_toilet

Given that we have not yet sent any of the new Planar 3 turntables to our dealers or distributors worldwide, and therefore you could not have listened to one, I am not sure how you can be so certain that it will not offer any improvement over the Project Debut or the outgoing RP3 as you suggest. Also, to be so assertive that the TTPSU adds no benefit whatsoever to the RP3 suggests that you have extensive experience of the combination, would you care to explain and also provide the measurements you quote.

If, as you suggest from you figures, the wow and flutter on the RP3 is 0.118%, (from whatever source you are quoting), and the Clearaudio is 0.65% does that not mean that the RP3 is over 5 times better and not "clearly inferior" as you suggest.

The dictionary definition of peturbation is "anxiety" or "mental uneasiness" hmmmm, not entirely sure how this could be used in a HiFi context.

As for "wasting your money on the Rega" I would hope and encourage everyone to be free to compare all available turntables and make their choice on the basis of what sounds best to them.

Paul Darwin

Rega Research

Well said Sir. He doesn't actually say he has listened to the Planar 3 though, he is guessing.

 

[nopiano]

The Rega is the default choice here in the U.K. I'm sure. The new Planar already has a glowing review and I expect many will follow. Other benefits are the steady demand for used models, and the large dealer network.

When I bought my Michell Tecnodec about three years ago, it wasn't well known. It still isn't! That's the nature of a modest family run business! I'd recommend looking and listening if you can. The excellent (older) Rega arm supplied can be upgraded with Michell modification. Ultimately I got an ex display model at a good price, and the difference would allow a significant cartridge upgrade. I use a Rega fono preamp too.

I also considered the Ckearaudio, but the distribution was erratic at the time, so I passed over it.

 

[BigH]

You could have a look at the Inspire Hi-Fi Black Magic Si, its about £560, won Hifi Choice group test which included RP3 and was Turntable of the year 2015. Also very good review in HiFi News.

 

[GeoffreyW]

I'm waiting for it to appear, too, Dave, just to have a look, really. Hopefully our dealers will have both incoming and outgoing decks set up, to allow easy comparison. Apparently, they're due in the shops at the end of March........? So, two weeks late already. Any update from your dealer, please?

I bought my deck used, fitted with a Carbon cartridge, and swapped it without listening to it for the MP110 from my Planar 3, so can't comment constructively on how it would sound with either a Bias or Elys.

And, No, I didn't for a minute think that your choice would be made purely on the speed change issue. ;-), just enjoy whichever deck you choose.

 

[Drummerdave]

I'm waiting for it to appear, too, Dave, just to have a look, really. Hopefully our dealers will have both incoming and outgoing decks set up, to allow easy comparison. Apparently, they're due in the shops at the end of March........? So, two weeks late already. Any update from your dealer, please?

I bought my deck used, fitted with a Carbon cartridge, and swapped it without listening to it for the MP110 from my Planar 3, so can't comment constructively on how it would sound with either a Bias or Elys.

And, No, I didn't for a minute think that your choice would be made purely on the speed change issue. ;-), just enjoy whichever deck you choose.

My dealer will be getting the first RP3s in at the end of April, so hopefully I'll be able to go for an audition then.

 

[NSA_watch_my_toilet]

Given that we have not yet sent any of the new Planar 3 turntables to our dealers or distributors worldwide, and therefore you could not have listened to one, I am not sure how you can be so certain that it will not offer any improvement over the Project

I'm not fluent in the english language, but "not that much of an improvement" and "not at all" seems two different meanings for me. I hope a Shakespearian will help me out there, but I believe it's the word I choose and wrote down. And I was speaking about the RP3, that was sent to your dealers because, effectively, you have not sent any of those new panars to your clients for the moment. So, if a forum member ask about the actual Rega 3, we know, we could only speak about the RP3.

and the Clearaudio is 0.65% does that not mean that the RP3 is over 5 times better and not "clearly inferior" as you suggest.

You are absolutely right. This was a tiping error. I wanted to tip 0.065%. Thank you for that, I will edit my post.

...and also provide the measurements you quote.

You are welcome.

Rega RP3 without TTPSU

Gleichlaufton = synchronisation tone

Speed variations vs time

rumble

And RP3 with TTPSU

Mesures are property of the "WEKA Verlag" and are used for educational purpose only.

I would hope and encourage everyone to be free to compare all available turntables and make their choice on the basis of what sounds best to them.

And I can't agree more with you.

 

[NSA_watch_my_toilet]

I'm not sure I understand all the technical stuff about the noise floor etc, but the gist of what you're saying is that the Rega is not worth considering becasue it's no better than my Project. Would that be right?

Not completely right. The gist is that the improvement is small. They mesure around the same with better speed regularity for the pro-ject and less rumble for the rega, sound is a little bit different with a little plus for the rega, that makes a better use of his tonearm and different platter too. But it's not something that would motivate me to spend this amount of money when I already have a capable player at home. So if I would do the step ahead, I would make it to be more "audible"/"complete"/ect... (choose your word).

 

[GeoffreyW]

I'm going with ect.

 

[Jim_W]

I'm going with ect.

Electroconvulsive therapy? That should cure anybody's hifi lunacy.

 

[thescarletpronster]

The dictionary definition of peturbation is "anxiety" or "mental uneasiness" hmmmm, not entirely sure how this could be used in a HiFi context.

Those are two (metaphorical) uses for this word, which means, in general, 'to throw into disorder' (physical or mental). Water surface can be said to be 'perturbed', so I don't see why sound waves, another form of wave, can't be considered analagous.

I'm not placing myself on any side of this argument about turntables - only commenting that I think the use of 'perturbation' was valid in an audio context.