turntable to cartridge price and performance ratio

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Hay guy's ,I have just recently acquired all my turntable kit,after a series of upgraditis.And am already thinking about the next cartridge upgrade as i'll have to save for it and will probably have worn out my current Audiotechnica ptgii by next year,I'm looking at the at art9 or something in this kind of price range but just wondering at what point does the cart become too good for the turntable.I know cartridge compliance and toneaerm mass become factors in this but at what point do i say i think it's time to stop with this turntable or move up the ladder so to speak........ Also the amps(both of them)will reveal there short commings to resolve a higher end cartridges ability also comes into play.I know Al ears kit(to name but one) is worth many thousands of pounds and can have the pick of probably anything out there,but i'm not at that level.So how much should one spend on the cartridge regards to price of the turntable ?if such a formula exists.Or does it not matter so much if one sticks a 2.5k koetsu on a sub 1k turntable as long as the compliance/mass figures match up.thought it might be an interesting thread to read some forumees views on the subject,cheers for the input.

 

[Al ears]

Hay guy's ,I have just recently acquired all my turntable kit,after a series of upgraditis.And am already thinking about the next cartridge upgrade as i'll have to save for it and will probably have worn out my current Audiotechnica ptgii by next year,I'm looking at the at art9 or something in this kind of price range but just wondering at what point does the cart become too good for the turntable.I know cartridge compliance and toneaerm mass become factors in this but at what point do i say i think it's time to stop with this turntable or move up the ladder so to speak and also the amps(both of them) ..there short commings to resolve a higher end cartridges ability also comes into play.I know Al ears kit(to name but one) is worth many thousands of pounds and can have the pick of probably anything out there,but i'm not at that level.So how much should one spend on the cartridge regards to price of the turntable ?if such a formula exists.Or does it not matter so much if one sticks a 2.5k koetsu on a sub 1k turntable as long as the compliance/mass figures match up.thought it might be an interesting thread to read some forumees views on the subject,cheers for the input.

Hi Mark,

I was waiting to see if you got anyone else posting before adding my thoughts but they haven't yet so here goes. I think your current AT should last more than a year, giving you more time to save 🙂

I don't think there is a simple formula, it's going to vary according to the size of your bank account. As a matter of fact I did know someone who ran a Koetsu on a £1100 deck admittedly with a very good tonearm.

You are correct in the arm / cartridge combo being important, even more so than the turntable itself. There is only so much I would pay to get something stable that rotates LPs at a steady rate which is essentially all they do.

Personally my cut-off point for value for money and where the price to performance rate flattens out somewhat would be around the £800 mark, but that's just me.

I have heard some expensive cartridges in my time but taking one example I would consider you would have to spend a lot again on top of the price of a Benz Micro Glider SL to get only slightly improved performance.

 

[keeper of the quays]

One of my friends has a koetsu cartridge, it's a beautiful piece of work! Encrusted with bits of precious stones...almost a work of art!

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Back to the law of diminishing returns i guess,thanks Al.

 

[Al ears]

Back to the law of diminishing returns i guess,thanks Al.

I am afraid so. It is always there at any price level, you pay double to get an extra 10% improvement. 🙂

 

[Al ears]

One of my friends has a koetsu cartridge, it's a beautiful piece of work! Encrusted with bits of precious stones...almost a work of art!

What do you mean almost? They cost enough to be one. 🙂

 

[keeper of the quays]

One of my friends has a koetsu cartridge, it's a beautiful piece of work! Encrusted with bits of precious stones...almost a work of art!

What do you mean almost? They cost enough to be one. 🙂

yes true..6k I think, but he has SME turntable so I guess it's in the zone..what would be interesting is to put a dl110 on the SME and see what that sounds like? I think the Shure m97xe takes some beating at the price..

 

[Al ears]

One of my friends has a koetsu cartridge, it's a beautiful piece of work! Encrusted with bits of precious stones...almost a work of art!

What do you mean almost? They cost enough to be one. 🙂

yes true..6k I think, but he has SME turntable so I guess it's in the zone..what would be interesting is to put a dl110 on the SME and see what that sounds like? I think the Shure m97xe takes some beating at the price..

I believe you are right about the Shure. It's one of my go-to cartridges for anyone looking in that price range. You have to spend a fair bit more to better it.

 

[Waxy]

..from my set up.

At current full RRP, my vinyl-spinning costs* are spread thus:

Turntable 50%

Arm 25%

Cartridge 25%

* this obviously doesn't include a very costly record-buying habit!

 

[nopiano]

I agree there isn't any reliable rule of thumb. Extreme examples from the past were Linn turntables with expensive arms and cheap AT mm cartridges.

I tend to think of arms providing the focus and cartridges different shades of colour. In the Koetsu world, everything is rainbow coloured and sparkling, like after a shower of rain when the sun peeks out!

 

[keeper of the quays]

My Linn has a akito arm and I use a denon dl110..my mate has a Linn with a sme arm he uses a dl103..they both sound fine. I can't see point of getting more pricey cart..I think the turntable and arm more important to be honest!

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

If I had a linn turntable..I would want it to be sounding excellent...not just fine.The Cartridge at the end of the day is the contact point,the source of the sound if you like and the platter is more akin to a transport mechanism.So I firmly believe the biggest say on the Sq of a turntable is the cartridge.Yes The better the tonearm and power supply..the better the cart can do it's job properly.But if you have a below par cart,it doesn't really matter what platter or tonearm you're using.as they say...rubbish in rubbish out.

 

[keeper of the quays]

If I had a linn turntable..I would want it to be sounding excellent...not just fine.The Cartridge at the end of the day is the contact point,the source of the sound if you like and the platter is more akin to a transport mechanism.So I firmly believe the biggest say on the Sq of a turntable is the cartridge.Yes The better the tonearm and power supply..the better the cart can do it's job properly.But if you have a below par cart,it doesn't really matter what platter or tonearm you're using.as they say...rubbish in rubbish out.

Well the turntable is going through equal quality amp.pre amp and acoustic energy reference speakers so I guess they help a bit? My friend has a 30k turntable (SME) and he uses sometimes a 640p phono stage! (£65) he says it's very good! So rubbish in/out? I'm not sure..sometimes the horses for courses don't have to be pedigree to do the job.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

That is the most illogical partnership I've heard of so far,but if your friend has a 30k sme turntable..he must know his onions and if he's happy to run a £65 phono stage into it well it must punch well above it's price range.But me being me...I reckon I'd think that something better was available and I would doubt myself whether I was really getting the best out of that 30k turntable.but hey as you say horses for courses and all that.....OH and I'm not knocking anything.I nearly bought that denon cart myself but the compliance was far to low for my tonearm and my previous little project phono box se was very good with mm carts but I never got around to trying it with a mc unit....it might have been up for the job after all.I'm really trying to find out the budget ceiling for a cart with the rest of my setup . it's turning into an interesting thread.

 

[keeper of the quays]

That is the most illogical partnership I've heard of so far,but if your friend has a 30k sme turntable..he must know his onions and if he's happy to run a £65 phono stage into it well it must punch well above it's price range.But me being me...I reckon I'd think that something better was available and I would doubt myself whether I was really getting the best out of that 30k turntable.but hey as you say horses for courses and all that.....OH and I'm not knocking anything.I nearly bought that denon cart myself but the compliance was far to low for my tonearm and my previous little project phono box se was very good with mm carts but I never got around to trying it with a mc unit....it might have been up for the job after all.I'm really trying to find out the budget ceiling for a cart with the rest of my setup . it's turning into an interesting thread.

the dl110 is high output so should be ok with mm..its fine on my 640p in mm mode but I prefer it in Mc mode..that Shure cart mentioned earlier is amazing for money..but if you like the sound of your set up? That's the main thing...we all think in hifi that the grass is greener over fence! It isn't..same colour different tone..

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Thought it was a 103r.a bit harder for a mm amp.But yeah I'm very happy with my system,but always trying to improve on it,apart from my pmc's.I love them and they just fit with my room etc.In fact love the xs and my turntable,I just think the cart is best bang for buck re upgrades.No point in telling me to stop and the grass isn't greener etc...I kind of know that by now.I do like to spend on my stereo or camera.but it's all about the stereo at the moment.And I do love a package comming to the door.lol.

 

[BigH]

If I had a linn turntable..I would want it to be sounding excellent...not just fine.The Cartridge at the end of the day is the contact point,the source of the sound if you like and the platter is more akin to a transport mechanism.So I firmly believe the biggest say on the Sq of a turntable is the cartridge.Yes The better the tonearm and power supply..the better the cart can do it's job properly.But if you have a below par cart,it doesn't really matter what platter or tonearm you're using.as they say...rubbish in rubbish out.

Well the turntable is going through equal quality amp.pre amp and acoustic energy reference speakers so I guess they help a bit? My friend has a 30k turntable (SME) and he uses sometimes a 640p phono stage! (£65) he says it's very good! So rubbish in/out? I'm not sure..sometimes the horses for courses don't have to be pedigree to do the job.

I'm surprised that he uses a 640p, its OK on MM but MC is not meant to be so good, most people who have them with decent TTs have had them modified. The new 651p is very similar. Look up Arkless Electronics if you are interested, think its about £180.

Rubbish in would be from a bad stylus, not the phono stage.

 

[keeper of the quays]

If I had a linn turntable..I would want it to be sounding excellent...not just fine.The Cartridge at the end of the day is the contact point,the source of the sound if you like and the platter is more akin to a transport mechanism.So I firmly believe the biggest say on the Sq of a turntable is the cartridge.Yes The better the tonearm and power supply..the better the cart can do it's job properly.But if you have a below par cart,it doesn't really matter what platter or tonearm you're using.as they say...rubbish in rubbish out.

Well the turntable is going through equal quality amp.pre amp and acoustic energy reference speakers so I guess they help a bit? My friend has a 30k turntable (SME) and he uses sometimes a 640p phono stage! (£65) he says it's very good! So rubbish in/out? I'm not sure..sometimes the horses for courses don't have to be pedigree to do the job.

I'm surprised that he uses a 640p, its OK on MM but MC is not meant to be so good, most people who have them with decent TTs have had them modified. The new 651p is very similar. Look up Arkless Electronics if you are interested, think its about £180.

Rubbish in would be from a bad stylus, not the phono stage.

That's the strange thing? Put a 640p with SME and a koetsu and the phono stage sounds very good? Is that a surprise? The lesser is lifted up by the higher! I'm keeping the dl110 with mine..when I got the turntable it had a Linn k11 cart I seem to remember..it was ok too..main reason I went for dl110 is its designed for older vinyl esp due to shape of tip..plays a little deeper in groove avoiding most surface damage noise..

 

[BigH]

If I had a linn turntable..I would want it to be sounding excellent...not just fine.The Cartridge at the end of the day is the contact point,the source of the sound if you like and the platter is more akin to a transport mechanism.So I firmly believe the biggest say on the Sq of a turntable is the cartridge.Yes The better the tonearm and power supply..the better the cart can do it's job properly.But if you have a below par cart,it doesn't really matter what platter or tonearm you're using.as they say...rubbish in rubbish out.

Well the turntable is going through equal quality amp.pre amp and acoustic energy reference speakers so I guess they help a bit? My friend has a 30k turntable (SME) and he uses sometimes a 640p phono stage! (£65) he says it's very good! So rubbish in/out? I'm not sure..sometimes the horses for courses don't have to be pedigree to do the job.

I'm surprised that he uses a 640p, its OK on MM but MC is not meant to be so good, most people who have them with decent TTs have had them modified. The new 651p is very similar. Look up Arkless Electronics if you are interested, think its about £180.

Rubbish in would be from a bad stylus, not the phono stage.

That's the strange thing? Put a 640p with SME and a koetsu and the phono stage sounds very good? Is that a surprise? The lesser is lifted up by the higher! I'm keeping the dl110 with mine..when I got the turntable it had a Linn k11 cart I seem to remember..it was ok too..main reason I went for dl110 is its designed for older vinyl esp due to shape of tip..plays a little deeper in groove avoiding most surface damage noise..

Yes to a certain extent but people who have used better phono stages or had them modified say the 640p sound s dull or veiled in comparison but then not everyone wants more. Yes I know what you mean about cartridges, some like AT it picks up every little bit of surface noise. Yes people say its sound good until they hear something better? I think Arkless do a demo unit, maybe worth a try.