turntable amp and speakers for opera budget £3000

[Covenanter]

Apropos of very little that has gone before, as an opera fan I would always want a good video system because opera is a visual art just as much as it is a sonic art, indeed it is a form of music theatre. That would form quite a big chunk of my budget.

Chris

 

[CnoEvil]

FWIW. I'd be with DDC on this.

For opera, a decent Valve amp and a good source are a must, especially if you want to avoid years of messing about and being dissatisfied. IME. Get the engine of the system right, and the rest will start falling into place.

A Linn TT will sound gorgeous, but as has been said, be aware of its neurotic side, and take this into account.....preferably get from a knowledgeable dealer.

I prefer MC Cartridges, but with your restricted budget, I would probably go MM at this time.

I haven't heard the 2050is, but I agree with compromising on the speakers at this stage......driven well and with a good source, they won't sound budget. They can be replaced down the road with something better, eg. from the likes of Audio Note or Proac.

The only SS amp that I can think of below £2k, which might give you what you're looking for, is the Sugden A21.

Getting opera to sound "right", takes a bit more effort (and money) as it's more difficult to achieve.

 

[matt49]

Apropos of very little that has gone before, as an opera fan I would always want a good video system because opera is a visual art just as much as it is a sonic art, indeed it is a form of music theatre. That would form quite a big chunk of my budget.

Chris

I agree about the operatic visuals, but assuming the OP already has a relatively modern TV/DVD player with digital output, you can get a great result taking the audio via optical cable into a cheapish DAC and thence into a stereo amp. Or to put it another way, I think the big rewards from investment are in audio (amp and speakers) not video.

:santa:

Matt

 

[matt49]

The only SS amp that I can think of below £2k, which might give you what you're looking for, is the Sugden A21.

You can get a good older Sugden A21a (apparently the older models are at least as good as the new ones) for £500 or so. They come up quite often on the classified pages of PFM and Hifi Wigwam. In the context of a £3K budget, that's got to be good news!

:santa:

Matt

 

[altruistic.lemon]

You clearly have not got a clue in these areas and it shows.

The LP12 is a complex, dynamic machine and whatever the vintage, needs careful setting up. This is nothing to do with upgrades, it is about maintaining a level of performance that will deteriorate under dynamic conditions, ie in use.

If you have never experienced this then you are simply not competent to express a view in this instance.

Similarly I would hazard a guess that you have never had the opportunity to hear just how good some cheap modern speakers can sound when well driven by a good amplifier with a top quality source. I have no doubt you will say different, but the reality is that if you had heard such systems you would not be making the ridiculous statements above.

Give it said break, DDC, you're wrong and you know it!

P.S I ran a business fixing turntables just before the boom started, so I've a pretty decent idea about LP12s.

Also, I have some Q acoustics speakers.

You have to accept that speakers make the biggest difference to a system, it's a given. That isn't to say upgrading other components won't help, but the speakers, followed by the turntable easily make the biggest differences. Yes, amps have pretty lights, but they're a distant third in the chain in terms of impact on sound, as you well know. You should also know that valve amps do introduce distortion. Not saying it is unpleasant, but you should know this.

 

[davedotco]

FWIW. I'd be with DDC on this.

For opera, a decent Valve amp and a good source are a must, especially if you want to avoid years of messing about and being dissatisfied. IME. Get the engine of the system right, and the rest will start falling into place.

A Linn TT will sound gorgeous, but as has been said, be aware of its neurotic side, and take this into account.....preferably get from a knowledgeable dealer.

I prefer MC Cartridges, but with your restricted budget, I would probably go MM at this time.

I haven't heard the 2050is, but I agree with compromising on the speakers at this stage......driven well and with a good source, they won't sound budget. They can be replaced down the road with something better, eg. from the likes of Audio Note or Proac.

The only SS amp that I can think of below £2k, which might give you what you're looking for, is the Sugden A21.

Getting opera to sound "right", takes a bit more effort (and money) as it's more difficult to achieve.

Mmmmmm, I take it you are an old codger like me.......

The Linn issue is difficult, as a dealer through the peak of Linn mania, I am well aware of all the bull***** surounding the product but the reality is that the player could be difficult to set up correctly and would always drift out of alignment.

How quickly this happens is the issue, carefully and correctly done it would need re-setting every 18 months or so, acceptable i think but this would vary with useage and from player to player. These days setup expertise is rare, modern LP12's are more stable and less variable but in my view not as good sounding as the 'classic' late 80s / early 90's player.

I understand what you are saying about using an MC cartridge, but the Concept MC is an integrated solution that seems to work very well, the extra space and air made it well worth the extra when I heard it in comparison with the Concept MM.

In the case of the OP, space is an issue too, lovely to have the room but it does require a lot from the amp and speakers, in dynamic terms anyway. I think a lot of users would be shocked at the levels required to reproduce operatic voices, peak power admittedly but real nevertheless. I know my suggestion of 2050is does not fit easily with some but the high 92/93db/w sensitivity plays a big part in this.

Can you imaging the power require to drive a pair of Harbeths or ATCs, to the rquired levels without compression in such a situation?

 

[davedotco]

You clearly have not got a clue in these areas and it shows.

The LP12 is a complex, dynamic machine and whatever the vintage, needs careful setting up. This is nothing to do with upgrades, it is about maintaining a level of performance that will deteriorate under dynamic conditions, ie in use.

If you have never experienced this then you are simply not competent to express a view in this instance.

Similarly I would hazard a guess that you have never had the opportunity to hear just how good some cheap modern speakers can sound when well driven by a good amplifier with a top quality source. I have no doubt you will say different, but the reality is that if you had heard such systems you would not be making the ridiculous statements above.

Give it said break, DDC, you're wrong and you know it!

P.S I ran a business fixing turntables just before the boom started, so I've a pretty decent idea about LP12s.

Also, I have some Q acoustics speakers.

You have to accept that speakers make the biggest difference to a system, it's a given. That isn't to say upgrading other components won't help, but the speakers, followed by the turntable easily make the biggest differences. Yes, amps have pretty lights, but they're a distant third in the chain in terms of impact on sound, as you well know. You should also know that valve amps do introduce distortion. Not saying it is unpleasant, but you should know this.

You really do not have a clue do you, every post you make just hammers it home.

You are beginning to sound really very silly now, the idea of someone with your level of understanding being let loose on other peoples equipment is just laughable.

When you are in a hole this deep, you really should stop digging..... :read:

 

[altruistic.lemon]

ddc, a gentle reminder: you're not God.

People are always going to have contrary opinions, learn to accept it.

 

[CnoEvil]

Mmmmmm, I take it you are an old codger like me.......

The Linn issue is difficult, as a dealer through the peak of Linn mania, I am well aware of all the bull***** surounding the product but the reality is that the player could be difficult to set up correctly and would always drift out of alignment.

How quickly this happens is the issue, carefully and correctly done it would need re-setting every 18 months or so, acceptable i think but this would vary with useage and from player to player. These days setup expertise is rare, modern LP12's are more stable and less variable but in my view not as good sounding as the 'classic' late 80s / early 90's player.

I understand what you are saying about using an MC cartridge, but the Concept MC is an integrated solution that seems to work very well, the extra space and air made it well worth the extra when I heard it in comparison with the Concept MM.

In the case of the OP, space is an issue too, lovely to have the room but it does require a lot from the amp and speakers, in dynamic terms anyway. I think a lot of users would be shocked at the levels required to reproduce operatic voices, peak power admittedly but real nevertheless. I know my suggestion of 2050is does not fit easily with some but the high 92/93db/w sensitivity plays a big part in this.

Can you imaging the power require to drive a pair of Harbeths or ATCs, to the rquired levels without compression in such a situation?

I'm old school, and certainly a bit of a codger, but younger than you.

I rather liked the mid-range bloom on the older Linns.

 

[matt49]

You really do not have a clue do you, every post you make just hammers it home.

You are beginning to sound really very silly now, the idea of someone with your level of understanding being let loose on other peoples equipment is just laughable.

When you are in a hole this deep, you really should stop digging..... :read:

ddc, a gentle reminder: you're not God.

People are always going to have contrary opinions, learn to accept it.

Really, gents!

 

[altruistic.lemon]

I see ddc in pink

 

[davedotco]

Mmmmmm, I take it you are an old codger like me.......

The Linn issue is difficult, as a dealer through the peak of Linn mania, I am well aware of all the bull***** surounding the product but the reality is that the player could be difficult to set up correctly and would always drift out of alignment.

How quickly this happens is the issue, carefully and correctly done it would need re-setting every 18 months or so, acceptable i think but this would vary with useage and from player to player. These days setup expertise is rare, modern LP12's are more stable and less variable but in my view not as good sounding as the 'classic' late 80s / early 90's player.

I understand what you are saying about using an MC cartridge, but the Concept MC is an integrated solution that seems to work very well, the extra space and air made it well worth the extra when I heard it in comparison with the Concept MM.

In the case of the OP, space is an issue too, lovely to have the room but it does require a lot from the amp and speakers, in dynamic terms anyway. I think a lot of users would be shocked at the levels required to reproduce operatic voices, peak power admittedly but real nevertheless. I know my suggestion of 2050is does not fit easily with some but the high 92/93db/w sensitivity plays a big part in this.

Can you imaging the power require to drive a pair of Harbeths or ATCs, to the rquired levels without compression in such a situation?

I'm old school, and certainly a bit of a codger, but younger than you.

I rather liked the mid-range bloom on the older Linns.

It feels that everybody is younger than me these days......

The mid range bloom was rather nice but for those who did not like it, we started supplying the Xerxes player instead. The thing about the Linn in those days was that while never particularly neutral of even hi-fi in terms of separation or soundstage it was so incredibly engaging.

We used to sell by demonstration and in the early 80s we just had to play someone an LP12, most people simply had never heard records sound like that, easiest sales job ever.

 

[alienmango]

Look for these on ebay

Ebay has a pair of bowers 801's from a few years ago. £1800 ono

You can pick up a pair of rx6's for £5-600 normally.

There are a pair of focal 836's new for £1360

Spendor A5 Speaker Pair Light Oak £1075 buy it now

Wait for a pair of celestion a3, normally £800 on ebay, they come 3-4 times a year.
B&W CM9 Stereo Speakers £1000
I saw dave suggesting there was a need for a lot of spl (didn't read the whole thread) these are going to give that and sound good: RCF 4PRO 6001-A 3Way TriAmped 950W Active Loud Speakers

There's a pair of Adam S3X-V Active Studio Monitors Speakers (PAIR) for £2750. This would be my choice. They are active.

You can let the others get their knickers in a twist about the amount to spend on amps/sources. Get the RX6 second hand if you decide to go with spending that little on speakers.

 

[davedotco]

Look for these on ebay

Ebay has a pair of bowers 801's from a few years ago. £1800 ono

You can pick up a pair of rx6's for £5-600 normally.

There are a pair of focal 836's new for £1360

Spendor A5 Speaker Pair Light Oak £1075 buy it now

Wait for a pair of celestion a3, normally £800 on ebay, they come 3-4 times a year.
B&W CM9 Stereo Speakers £1000
I saw dave suggesting there was a need for a lot of spl (didn't read the whole thread) these are going to give that and sound good: RCF 4PRO 6001-A 3Way TriAmped 950W Active Loud Speakers

There's a pair of Adam S3X-V Active Studio Monitors Speakers (PAIR) for £2750. This would be my choice. They are active.

You can let the others get their knickers in a twist about the amount to spend on amps/sources. Get the RX6 second hand if you decide to go with spending that little on speakers.

it is not average spl that is the issue, it is dynamic range.

Some people (not you alien) have absolutely no idea of the power requirement when reproducing a solo instrument or a trained voice. The peak power can be pretty high, astonishingly so if the room is a bit larger than normal and you turn it up a little bit on occasions.

Sure, unless you play silly loud, you are unlikely to hear clipping, as such, but what will happen is that you run into dynamic compression, one of the main reasons it is so dificult to get a solo instrument or an operatic voice to sound real.

Getting back to the OP, he has a large space to fill and a 'fancy' for valves. Whatever (valve) amp he chooses he is unlikely to get much more than 30 wpc, so picking a speaker with a sensitivity around 92-93db/w makes a lot of sense. The sense of ease and presence from such a system will come as a surprise for many on here, especially those struggling with 'difficult' speakers and woefully underpowered amplifiers,

 

[davedotco]

I see ddc in pink

I think that says rather more about you than it does about me..... :shame:

 

[Geoff1611]

OK guys, time out. Thanks to all - its certainly opened up the scope of possibilities and manufacturers to me. You've done a great job - I had no intention to start WWIII though. Its also taught me £3k won't get me where I want to be.

Given there seems to be the general opinion that the analogue bits - the start (pick-up / turntable) and less so the end (speakers) - matter most I've decided the to replace my turntable - probably with the Clearaudio Concept MC - and resurrect my headphones.

Then I'll take it from there. Perhaps not spend too much - experiment with some s/h solutions which can be resold but still ultimately aiming for valve amp + pre-amp (that'll take 3k on its own). In the short-term the Sugden s/h SS + s/h speakers suggested might be the next step - or I might just save and research.

Thanks again

 

[davedotco]

OK guys, time out. Thanks to all - its certainly opened up the scope of possibilities and manufacturers to me. You've done a great job - I had no intention to start WWIII though. Its also taught me £3k won't get me where I want to be.

Given there seems to be the general opinion that the analogue bits - the start (pick-up / turntable) and less so the end (speakers) - matter most I've decided the to replace my turntable - probably with the Clearaudio Concept MC - and resurrect my headphones.

Then I'll take it from there. Perhaps not spend too much - experiment with some s/h solutions which can be resold but still ultimately aiming for valve amp + pre-amp (that'll take 3k on its own). In the short-term the Sugden s/h SS + s/h speakers suggested might be the next step - or I might just save and research.

Thanks again

No problem, don't worry about the 'banter', Al Lemon is an Australian, giving him stick is virtually compulsory.....

As you can see there are plenty of ways to skin this particular cat, everyone has opinions, some more informed than others, but all interesting.

If you are to take anything out of this thread then that is to make up your own mind, that is important, but there are some facts that you can use for guidance.

First of all a record player is not a handful of chips in a box, like a streamer, but a fairly complex piece of engineering and the Clearaudio Concept is probably the cheapest player you should be considering, particularly if you are going to extend your budget much beyond the £3k mark.

Secondly their is a power issue, opera puts huge demands on the dynamic capabilities of the system, very different from the requirements of modern 'pop' type material. If you are going down the valve route real power is rare and expensive, for all kinds of reasons, so you need speakers that make the most of what power is available, given your room size, I would think 90 db/w as a minimum.

If you are lucky enough to have a good local dealer who is interested in analogue then get to listen to a few players, hopefully some valves too, a good demonstration is worth a lot, see what you can do.

 

[FennerMachine]

As you are considering going down the valve route it might be worth considering that Icon Audio do valves amps and make speakers with high sensitivity to go with them.

 

[alienmango]

it is not average spl that is the issue, it is dynamic range.

Some people (not you alien) have absolutely no idea of the power requirement when reproducing a solo instrument or a trained voice. The peak power can be pretty high, astonishingly so if the room is a bit larger than normal and you turn it up a little bit on occasions.

Sure, unless you play silly loud, you are unlikely to hear clipping, as such, but what will happen is that you run into dynamic compression, one of the main reasons it is so dificult to get a solo instrument or an operatic voice to sound real.

Getting back to the OP, he has a large space to fill and a 'fancy' for valves. Whatever (valve) amp he chooses he is unlikely to get much more than 30 wpc, so picking a speaker with a sensitivity around 92-93db/w makes a lot of sense. The sense of ease and presence from such a system will come as a surprise for many on here, especially those struggling with 'difficult' speakers and woefully underpowered amplifiers,

Ok so I re-read the thread....valve amp...right. That's a sticking point.

I'm with Dave.

 

[alienmango]

Perhaps OP could have cake and eat it if you get lucky on an old pair of klipsch coffins?

 

[davedotco]

Perhaps OP could have cake and eat it if you get lucky on an old pair of klipsch coffins?

If you are lucky enough to find a good example this would be a decent call but most of the really good high sensitivity vintage types fetch ridiculously high prices.

Anyway there are suitable modern alternatives, we are not talking about models designed to get the best out of 2-3 wpc single ended designs but something in the 90-95 db/w region. Icon Audio make an impressive looking floorstander in it's MFV (Made for Valves) series at just £999 and there are other modern designs should you seek them out.