turntable amp and speakers for opera budget £3000

Geoff1611

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After 20 years I want to upgrade my solid state and somewhat harsh sounding kit. I prefer vinyl to CD, and old pair of big box 3-way speakers to my two way good quality bookshelf speakers, and from what I've heard I prefer valve to solid state. Most things seem to be made in China these days so I have no problems over Chinese kit if its well made and designed.

I'm not a hifi enthusiast as such and don't regularly read reviews though I'm trying to get through a sea of material now.
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Suggestions for individual items new or second-hand please. Thanks.
 

CnoEvil

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Hi there, and welcome to the forum.

You might like to keep an eye on this thread: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/valve-ampspeaker-combos

For a TT, check out Rega and Project.

You should also check out Croft amps and Harbeth speakers........what size is your room?.
 

drummerman

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Not all valve amps sound warm and woolly, some can sound downright bright, harsh and horrible. At least when I looked into it years ago. Mostly uneven harmonic distortion and light weight transformers which saturate quickly.

Prima Luna are amongst a few that always seem to come up well in tests. - Audio Note did a small, low powered system including speakers some time ago in a system test in HifiChoice which came out highly recommended at around your budget. Perhaps worth getting in touch with them as the system comprised a non-upsampling CD player but they also do Turntables/arms.

Hope that helps.

regards
 

CnoEvil

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Geoff1611 said:
Thanks both of you. Room size: listening area is about 4m x 7m but is part of an open "loft style" plan space.

In which case you need a Floorstander or substantial Standmount.
 

davedotco

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CnoEvil said:
Geoff1611 said:
Thanks both of you. Room size: listening area is about 4m x 7m but is part of an open "loft style" plan space.

In which case you need a Floorstander or substantial Standmount.

Given your room size, preference for valves and vinyl and love of opera, I would suggest digging a little deeper and looking for something like this.....

Clearaudio Concept MC, about £1400.

Clearaudio Nano phono stage, about £230.

Icon Audio Stereo 40 6AS7 integrated amplifier, £1400.

Q Acoustics 2050i speakers, from about £450.

These are normal prices, deals can be made to bring things a little closer to £3k.
 

altruistic.lemon

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Rather than buying an expensive amp and cheapo speakers, I'd go for something like the Magnepan MG12 for £1600, -particularly good with classical - together with one of the new Creek amplifiers and a Rega RP3, although, unless my memory has faded, a secondhand LP12 would be far better .
 

davedotco

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Al and Al.

No, not on this occasion, for several reasons.

Firstly the OP wants to play Opera on vinyl, that is very demanding and a player to handle that well will be quite expensive, it has to be, quality mechanical engineering is not cheap. The phono stage is well matched to the cartridge so this slight indulgence is well worth the money.

Similar logic for the amplifier, if you are going to use valves at this price level then the amplifier will be proportionately more expensive, that is just the way it is. If you are going to ignore the OP's preferences there are cheaper solid state options, plenty of them.

Finally some thought to system building, the requirement is too play opera in a pretty large 'loft' style space. If you want any scale and presence you are going to have to work at it, getting a good dynamic signal off the front end is paramount, without that you may as well not bother. Hence a very decent and dynamic player.

Valve amplifiers at this level are not going to be that powerful and you have a big space to fill, the 2050i sound big and are very sensitive, 30 or so watts of valve power is going to be sufficient, after all it is roughly the equivilent of 120-140 watts into the MG 12, or many other loudspeakers for that matter. Sure there are more refined speakers than the 2050is but in a system of this quality they might surprise you, especially given space 'to breath'.
 

altruistic.lemon

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Sorry, no. The Magnepans are excellent with opera, and need good, but not jaw-droppingly expensive amps. The Q Acoustics are good budget, but they are still budget, speakers. If you want the full scale of opera you simply have to look at better speakers.

Bit like butying a ferrari then putting on £20 tyres, you simply won't get the benefit and the first tight corner off the road she'll go :)
 

Geoff1611

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Thanks all. Lots of information ....

1. My current speakers are 20-year old JPWs with 8" drivers - just looking at the Q Acoustics 2050is would they be much of an improvement?

2. I had sort of decided on s/h Linn pluc an MC pickup. What is the argument against the s/h Linn? Also I have a wooden floating floor - the Clearaudio Concept would need some additional isolation I guess: wall mounted shelf? Lots of cushioning beneath?

3. I had also been looking at the Icon amps - and pre-amp.

I think my budget will have to grow - maybe upgrade the speakers at a later date?
 

BigH

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altruistic.lemon said:
Rather than buying an expensive amp and cheapo speakers, I'd go for something like the Magnepan MG12 for £1600, -particularly good with classical - together with one of the new Creek amplifiers and a Rega RP3, although, unless my memory has faded, a secondhand LP12 would be far better .

Maggies are expensive in the UK and you need some space and right shape room, although the Creek 50A is good not sure its really powerful enough for the MG12s.
 

davedotco

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altruistic.lemon said:
Sorry, no. The Magnepans are excellent with opera, and need good, but not jaw-droppingly expensive amps. The Q Acoustics are good budget, but they are still budget, speakers. If you want the full scale of opera you simply have to look at better speakers.

Bit like butying a ferrari then putting on £20 tyres, you simply won't get the benefit and the first tight corner off the road she'll go :)

Never suggested otherwise.

The OP has a lot of space to fill. What sort of amplifier is going to do the job and leave you funds to buy a decent record player?

We have context here, just how are you going to fit a pair of £1500 speakers with a lowish sensitivity into the budget, even allowing for a modest overspend? Let alone do it with valves!

I know it is kind of old school but the capabilities of decent budget speakers continues to amaze me given good amplification and source. Like I said it is a system building thing, if the OP wants to use valves, then this is both expensive and puts specific demands on the loudspeaker.

The 2050is are a good budget speaker, properly driven and properly setup with space around them they will sound pretty damn good, at 92-93db/w they will handle the dynamics with ease. They are cheap, save the money and spend it where it will do the most good.
 

altruistic.lemon

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Geoff1611 said:
Thanks all. Lots of information ....

1. My current speakers are 20-year old JPWs with 8" drivers - just looking at the Q Acoustics 2050is would they be much of an improvement?

2. I had sort of decided on s/h Linn pluc an MC pickup. What is the argument against the s/h Linn? Also I have a wooden floating floor - the Clearaudio Concept would need some additional isolation I guess: wall mounted shelf? Lots of cushioning beneath?

3. I had also been looking at the Icon amps - and pre-amp.

I think my budget will have to grow - maybe upgrade the speakers at a later date?
On point 1, the short answer is probably not. The Linn should outperform the turntable you mention, and will be less prone to vibration as it is a suspended deck.
 

davedotco

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Geoff1611 said:
Thanks all. Lots of information ....

1. My current speakers are 20-year old JPWs with 8" drivers - just looking at the Q Acoustics 2050is would they be much of an improvement?

2. I had sort of decided on s/h Linn pluc an MC pickup. What is the argument against the s/h Linn? Also I have a wooden floating floor - the Clearaudio Concept would need some additional isolation I guess: wall mounted shelf? Lots of cushioning beneath?

3. I had also been looking at the Icon amps - and pre-amp.

I think my budget will have to grow - maybe upgrade the speakers at a later date?

Hi Geoff.

The big diffeence in the speakers will be in the midrange, (2) smaller bass drivers will be far more controlled than a 20 year old 8 inch, should improve voice a lot, kind of important for opera. These speakers are pretty cheap, providing you can keep them away from the wall and give them a little space they will sound really good. Not the most refined, that will cost a lot more, but for scale and presence they will be difficult to beat at anything close to their price.

Unless you are planning to spend a lot more, the Icon Audio Stereo 40 and Stereo 60 are probably the best value, I recommended the cheapest to fit the budget but better versions are available, my particular favourite is the EL34 based Stereo 40.

Used Linns are something of a lottery, there are a lot of very 'dodgy' arms about, poor handling, quite common sadly, leaves the bearings in a mess and then there is the isue of setup, unless you have someone very competent to do it, sound quality will be very ordinary and vary a lot over time. Not for the fainthearted.

The Clearaudio Concept is as near to plug and play as you can get with a turntable, though you are right about the support but this will be important whatever the player. Depending just how much your floor moves, you might get away with a floorstand, footfall may be the problem, get your dealer to lend you something simple and light, an old Sound Organisation table will be good enough to show if it is going to work and set abasic standard. They can be picked up very cheap if you look around.

If footeall is a problem then wall mounting is the best option. Bit of pain but if you are going to spend real money on a record playing system, you absolutely have to get the basics right.

The Clearaudio front end with the Icon amps can handle much better speakers but if you want to keep close to your budget, using the 2050is will help price wise. Should you want something better down the line they will give you a very listenable system in the medium term and be easily resaleable later when you decide on something better.
 

altruistic.lemon

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davedotco said:
The OP has a lot of space to fill. What sort of amplifier is going to do the job and leave you funds to buy a decent record player?

We have context here, just how are you going to fit a pair of £1500 speakers with a lowish sensitivity into the budget, even allowing for a modest overspend? Let alone do it with valves!

I know it is kind of old school but the capabilities of decent budget speakers continues to amaze me given good amplification and source. Like I said it is a system building thing, if the OP wants to use valves, then this is both expensive and puts specific demands on the loudspeaker.

The 2050is are a good budget speaker, properly driven and properly setup with space around them they will sound pretty damn good, at 92-93db/w they will handle the dynamics with ease. They are cheap, save the money and spend it where it will do the most good.
To answer your question, the amplifier I mentioned, and the turntable is one helluva good deck. The speakers fit easily into budget - do a price check.

I'm sure the 2050is are good budget speakers, but they will be the bottleneck (by a country mile) in the system. I suggest, rather than listen to us debating what isn't an issue, the OP goes down to his local dealer and listens to speakers in the £400 to £2000 range himself.

I fully agree with your comment that I've bolded, but in this case it's the speakers, not the amp, where the money should be spent.
 
Whilst the Q Acoustics / Maggees battle wages a few pointers for the OP.

Unless you really know your turntables I'd avoid second-hand LP12's. Many are worse for wear and although some may have a few of the all-too-many modifications (available and /or needed) fitted to them they are still not the turntable they were once noted to be by some.

A modern, well set-up turntable for approximately the same value will probably make more sense.

All turntables, not just non-sprung ones, will benefit from a wall-mounted shelf.

For your budget I would avoid MC cartridges and thus the need for the additional expense of a pre-amp. Spend the money on a good MM cartridge and get an amp with inbuilt phono stage (this is spending money where it is going to make the most difference - just ensure it's a quality MM cartridge).

Go and audition as many speakers as you can and if you can get a home demo so much the better.
 

davedotco

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altruistic.lemon said:
davedotco said:
The OP has a lot of space to fill. What sort of amplifier is going to do the job and leave you funds to buy a decent record player?

We have context here, just how are you going to fit a pair of £1500 speakers with a lowish sensitivity into the budget, even allowing for a modest overspend? Let alone do it with valves!

I know it is kind of old school but the capabilities of decent budget speakers continues to amaze me given good amplification and source. Like I said it is a system building thing, if the OP wants to use valves, then this is both expensive and puts specific demands on the loudspeaker.

The 2050is are a good budget speaker, properly driven and properly setup with space around them they will sound pretty damn good, at 92-93db/w they will handle the dynamics with ease. They are cheap, save the money and spend it where it will do the most good.
To answer your question, the amplifier I mentioned, and the turntable is one helluva good deck. The speakers fit easily into budget - do a price check.

I'm sure the 2050is are good budget speakers, but they will be the bottleneck (by a country mile) in the system. I suggest, rather than listen to us debating what isn't an issue, the OP goes down to his local dealer and listens to speakers in the £400 to £2000 range himself.

I fully agree with your comment that I've bolded, but in this case it's the speakers, not the amp, where the money should be spent.

Once again you are missing the point, 'by a country mile'.

No one is suggesting that a good £500 speaker is better than a good £2000 speaker, where do you get that from or are you just making things up again?

I would suggest that the dem to do is to try the 2050i driven by £1500 of valve amplifier against a £1500 pair of speakers driven by a good budget amp such as the Creek, in a good size room. That would be enlightening.

As for the Rega player, no not for me. Nothing like good enough in this context.
 

altruistic.lemon

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davedotco said:
Once again you are missing the point, 'by a country mile'.

No one is suggesting that a good £500 speaker is better than a good £2000 speaker, where do you get that from or are you just making things up again?

I would suggest that the dem to do is to try the 2050i driven by £1500 of valve amplifier against a £1500 pair of speakers driven by a good budget amp such as the Creek, in a good size room. That would be enlightening.

As for the Rega player, no not for me. Nothing like good enough in this context.
Quite right, no-one is suggesting a £400 speaker is better than a £1600 one (Maggie price), merely that money is far better spent on speakers than the amp.

I cannot understand why you think otherwise.

Yup, as far as turntables go, for me the Linn is the far better option.
 

davedotco

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Al ears said:
Whilst the Q Acoustics / Maggees battle wages a few pointers for the OP.

Unless you really know your turntables I'd avoid second-hand LP12's. Many are worse for wear and although some may have a few of the all-too-many modifications (available and /or needed) fitted to them they are still not the turntable they were once noted to be by some.

A modern, well set-up turntable for approximately the same value will probably make more sense.

All turntables, not just non-sprung ones, will benefit from a wall-mounted shelf.

For your budget I would avoid MC cartridges and thus the need for the additional expense of a pre-amp. Spend the money on a good MM cartridge and get an amp with inbuilt phono stage (this is spending money where it is going to make the most difference - just ensure it's a quality MM cartridge).

Go and audition as many speakers as you can and if you can get a home demo so much the better.

Reasonable advice Al, echos my comments on the Linn issue a few posts back.

Personally I would definitely try for a MC cartridge in this context, the extra dynamics and separation would be the clincher for this, also if a valve amplification is planned an outboard phono stage will probably be needed anyway. The MC thing is important to me and I would not use a MM at this price level, though of course you see things differently.

As always some listening is needed, recommending specific products is always problematic, someone always has different views so the silly arguments ensue. AL (the other one) is always up for the full half hour...... ;)

Some sensible dems to be done here, I maintain that the Concept is miles ahead of the RP6, it's only a little more expensive so listen to the two. Similarly try the Concept MM against the Concept MC, I thought it made a big difference, the OP may see things differently.

Then of course, the big one, valves against solid state, are they really worth it? Check it out.
 

davedotco

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altruistic.lemon said:
davedotco said:
Once again you are missing the point, 'by a country mile'.

No one is suggesting that a good £500 speaker is better than a good £2000 speaker, where do you get that from or are you just making things up again?

I would suggest that the dem to do is to try the 2050i driven by £1500 of valve amplifier against a £1500 pair of speakers driven by a good budget amp such as the Creek, in a good size room. That would be enlightening.

As for the Rega player, no not for me. Nothing like good enough in this context.
Quite right, no-one is suggesting a £400 speaker is better than a £1600 one (Maggie price), merely that money is far better spent on speakers than the amp.

I cannot understand why you think otherwise.

Yup, as far as turntables go, for me the Linn is the far better option.

About 25 years experience selling, setting up and installing hi-fi systems. I have heard what is important and what makes the real differences, time and time and time again.

The modern trend to place so much emphasis on the speakers is hopeless and the primary reason many budget and mid priced systems sound so poor.

Regarding the Linn, I agree entirely, providing you can be sure that you get one in good condition and properly set up, not so easy these days.
 

altruistic.lemon

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Give it a break, ddc, that modern trend has been around as long as I can remember.

Linns are pretty foolproof, by the way, nice and simple design. Many of the upgrades have to do with the power supply and improving wow figures, which weren't bad to begin with. Not that you'd hear the difference with £400 speakers :) .
 

davedotco

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altruistic.lemon said:
Give it a break, ddc, that modern trend has been around as long as I can remember.

Linns are pretty foolproof, by the way, nice and simple design. Many of the upgrades have to do with the power supply and improving wow figures, which weren't bad to begin with. Not that you'd hear the difference with £400 speakers :) .

You clearly have not got a clue in these areas and it shows.

The LP12 is a complex, dynamic machine and whatever the vintage, needs careful setting up. This is nothing to do with upgrades, it is about maintaining a level of performance that will deteriorate under dynamic conditions, ie in use.

If you have never experienced this then you are simply not competent to express a view in this instance.

Similarly I would hazard a guess that you have never had the opportunity to hear just how good some cheap modern speakers can sound when well driven by a good amplifier with a top quality source. I have no doubt you will say different, but the reality is that if you had heard such systems you would not be making the ridiculous statements above.
 

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