Tube experts! suggestion needed for tube amp; hybrid or all tube, or all-tube with subwoofer?

mattmeer

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Hi,

Not sure if the correct word is tube or valve. Anyway.

I want a new amplifier. (who doesn't? :rofl: ) I would like to hear advice from tube experts (and the ones who had a tube amp in the past) on tube amplifiers in general.

I have looked at some tube amps, Jolida comes to mind, but also Unison Research and more expensive brands. Hybrid integrated amps have a blend of tube in the pre-section and solid state as power output (100Wpc for example), while all-tube amps often have either El34 power output tubes or KT88 output tubes. Both all-tube amps in this example are 50Wpc. I am not sure which one I will enjoy most.

Let me first tell you what I DO like, and what not.

-I currently use a 100Wpc solid state integrated amplifier, (the Scylla 80 S, old one but got recapped) which can produce deep and well controlled bass, has a wide soundstage, is fast and detailed. But emotion and texture is missing, there is no "color" to instruments so to speak, it mostly has cold tonality to everything, I hate that! I have Wharfedale 10.1 speakers. I play with a Linn turntable with a Benz element, which is a rich and fullbodied element, and has good bass retrieval. The reason I play with a turntable, is that I find it has more natural and smooth timing, and it has excellent depth and sense of space. You can hear where each instrument is coming from (love that) even during complex passages. Instruments and voices sound more alive with color and seem touchable with vinyl aswell, compared to digital. But the point is, with my current amplifier it still sounds cold and without much texture or color.

I heard Sonus Faber standmounts (warm speakers, bit polite but very controlled and with lots of airy space) combined with Naim pre+power amp 70W (dynamic amps with ok tonality) while using my turntable as the source, and the tonality was much better, bit warmer, but also voices and instruments had a "you are there" feeling with texture, and I love that feeling. But the Naim amplifier was a bit over-enthousiastic with the bass in my opinion, while the Sonus Faber speakers supposedly don't even have a strong bass. I know the amp shouldn't be to polite and not to analytical, otherwise it gets boring fast, but the bass was a bit to strong a few times in my opinion. This is my reference setup so to speak, which I don't own myself.

Okay, now my list of things I seek for in an amplifier:

Since you can't have everything in an amplifier, especially tube amps I also state in what areas I would be willing to compromise.

-No harsch treble at all times! It should be smooth, not rough and nail-scratching. I would be willing to even compromise with a slight roll off/rounding off the treble.

-No super enthousiastic bass please, it's nice if the bass can go deep and be punchy if that's on the recording, but the bass shouldn't be overly enthousiastic or forward. It should atleast display the texture of bass instruments and have the right tonality. For compromising reasons it would be okay if the bass would lack a bit of punch, I can always add more bass punch with a subwoofer right?

-The soundstage should be wide and deep, in an accurate way. I should be able to hear where individual instruments are placed, even in complex passages. The layers of the music should be unfolded, so to speak. It shouldn't get messy in complex passages, but keep things organized.

-I love emotion and texture, the "color" in instruments and voices. Rich and full with texture and tonality, not to polite, but certainly not to over-enthousiastic in dynamics. I guess these are honest dynamics?

-I would be willing to sacrifice detail for smooth natural timing or the points above. I don't need to hear every tiny little detail, the "color" is much more important as is the fluid natural timing.

-I prefer a relaxed warmth to an analytical fast cold tonality.

Now the artists that I listen to regularly. Looking at the above list of requirements, you would expect that I like acoustic music only right, considering the cliche's with tubes? Well that is not the case, although I do have some acoustic artists I like from time to time, mostly for background music.

- Artists I listen to often: Complex layered "progressive" rock, like Radiohead, Porcupine Tree, Steven Wilson. If not familiar with them, think Pink Floyd ;) Also some other music like Portishead and jazzy dance music, with sweet voices and a mix of electronic beats and acoustic instruments (yes it's recorded quite ok, not everything are electronic samples in this case, so it should have some tonality and texture aswell). But I can sacrifice on the thumpy electronic beats, can always add a subwoofer later if it bothers me. Some of these progressive rockartists have dynamic transients in volume, going from subtle to high volume very quickly. I like this transient to sound natural if possible, instead of a 180 degree turn in volume. (Well sometimes that is the purpose I guess :p) So smooth natural timing, natural transients in volume.

I think I mentioned everything, now onto tubes. Like I said, hybrid integrated amps have a blend of tube in the pre-section and solid state as power output (100Wpc for example), while all-tube amps often have either El34 power output tubes or KT88 output tubes. Both all-tube amps in this example are 50Wpc. After some research, it seems like EL34 tubes have a harschness in the treble, but the voices and instruments seem to have alot of color and texture. Possibly misses to much bass, but maybe I could cope with that? Subwoofer is always an option.

KT88 tubes should be more consistent in the frequency extremes, having more extended bass and better treble (less harsch?). Should provide a bit more punch at the expense of color, but might be more consistent and sound smoother, especially with treble. Have read somewhere however that KT88 tubes are highly unreliable and can be replaced by Sovtek 6550 tubes which are more reliable but provide the same sound. So that would be the difference between the two tubes. The hybrid amp seems to be the most dynamic and powerful one of the three, and has a good soundstage, but my guess is at the expensive of colour, although you can swap the tubes in the pre with either Jan Philips (warmer, more seductive, might give me the color I want?) or Philips 12AX7 pre-tubes, which give warmth as well and detail.



Finally the maintenance/reliability factor:

Amp will need to be on ~3 hours a day, quiet to moderate volume levels, rarely very loud. It should be reliable in this. How often would I need to change the tubes, and how can I make sure that I can change them in a safe manner. Some amplifiers have auto-bias, guess I need that. And how do I know it is time to change a tube?

So basically I can go for the hybrid amp with tubes in the pre-, and 100Wpc in the power output. Or a 50Wpc tube amp with different types of tubes, possibly supported by a seperate subwoofer.

I am looking forward to hear some suggestions about which amplifier would suit me best, and why!
 
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Anonymous

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Definitely recommend a tube pre /solid state power combo, this gives you the best of both worlds; the warmth and emotion from the tubes and the grip & lower freq control from the solid state. Also none of the tube impracticalities to deal with with them being only in your preamp section. Good luck.
 

CnoEvil

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Hi there Matt......I hear you.

A very comprehensive write up, which mentions nearly everything but your budget.

Are you changing your speakers now or at a later date, and will they be SF?
 

mattmeer

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Hi

I see you own a tube pre and a solid state power combo (signature).

Would you say that combo has smooth treble? It would be nice if the pre-amplifier with tubes could smooth out the rough edges of the treble. Can it also paint a wide soundstage? I am not sure if a pre-amplifier is responsible for that.
 

mattmeer

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Hi,

I don't have a hard budget, but I want something to last for years basically, and when I change speakers (need to have a bigger living room first!) it would be nice if they could grow with the system, instead of having to find something new. I might get something like Totem Sttaff floorstanders or Sonus Faber monitors when I have a bigger room in the future. But those speakers don't require that much power I believe.

I know Jolida is quite cheap but many people still enjoy their equipment for years. Might be a good brand to try out tubes with, and if it's good why not keep using it?

Unison Research, McIntosh, Prima Luna etc are probably great and will last for years too but are more expensive.

I heard good things about the Prima Luna Dialogue One, it has a "rich" and colorful texture to instruments and voices, but I am not sure if the soundstage is that wide and organised.
 
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My previous reply got lost in moderation, so I'll try again:

What speakers do you have?

What are details of the room?
 

CnoEvil

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Without any idea of what you are prepared to spend, I can only talk in generalities.

You have mentioned a couple of excellent makes, but there are other great sounding heavy weights like Conrad Johnson, Mark Levinson and Ayre Acoustics.

Other makes to consider are: Icon Audio; Pathos; Musical Fidelity AMS; VTS; Audio Analogue; Pure Sound; Sugden; Audio Note; JE Audio; Raysonic; Lavardin; Graaf and Audio Research.

The nearest I have heard to what you are describing was an all Audio Note system; they have level 0 to Level 5, where level 0 is very affordable and level 5 is over £500k.

It is possible to have a musical system of amp and speakers for £1000:
eg. Icon Audio Stereo 25 + Audio Note AZ-1

Other amps to hear at reasonable money are:

Pure Sound A30
Sugden Mystro / A21
Icon Audio Stereo 20/40/50/60
Lavardin IS
Pathos Classic 1 Mk111
Peachtree Nova
 

RCduck7

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A hybrid tube amp is not to bad if someone wants a bite of the tube character without comprimising on solid state benefits. This looks intresting.. http://www.tentlabs.com/Products/DIY%20Hybrid%20amplifier/DIY%20Hybrid%20amplifier.html Or as a cheaper alternative a Chinese Bada DC 222, wich also gets good user reviews.http://www.google.be/search?q=bada+dc+222&hl=nl&rls=com.microsoft:nl-be:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7PRFA_nl&prmd=ivnsfd&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=C8tKTvW7BI6g-AaE_ZySCQ&ved=0CF8QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=596 But if you really want my personal opinion i would choose the purest and simplest signal path. Either choose a good tube amp with a high sensitivity speaker (+90db), maybe even a full range single driver like the Zu or Tekton speakers, sometimes these speakers do have a supertweeter to so you don't miss out on the high frequencie extremes. http://www.zuaudio.com/ http://www.tektondesign.com/ If you choose not to go for integrated amps i would choose choose a very good volume control or passive pre amp. Or a solid state amp that is dynamic but also pleasures tube lovers like the Dayens amps. http://www.dayens.rs/eng_amplifiers.html On this topic scroll down on how some tube lover loves the Dayens Ecstacy solid state amp more then everything else that went before it.

LINK REMOVED BY MODS - House Rules

These are the components i would be intrested in but don't forget room acoustics to if you don't want your speakers to sound hard/harsh.
 

mattmeer

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Thanks for all the replies.

There are loads of tube brands out there, but I think I can decide between KT88 tubes and EL34.

I think KT88 tubes would suit me more, but to make sure I will go to a speciality tube hifishop in some time.

I listened to some budget speakers in a shop, not really my intention but it hit me that some speakers were totally unable to make complex passages comprehensable and organised, it became a big uncontrolled mess, unable to follow the flow of the music, didn't matter that they were dynamic and lively. Another expensive pair of speakers (Sonus Faber indeed) had such a natural flow of music, even in complex pieces, and besides, the dynamics in volume were really subtle, fading from whispering quiet to slow increases in volume were really nice to hear. They were not connected to a tube amp however (Naim) but KT88 tubes should excel in soundstage and agility/timing right? This natural flow is really addicting.. but with more "color" and texture it would be perfect
 

Rethep

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The EL 34's to me are a bit more rough compared to KT88's. The EL34's give a bit more of "solid state-sound". Considering soundstage/timing there is not a a big difference. I think both can sound well and depend on the rest of your set. If you don't play records you should go for an integrated amp!

Tubes last much longer then told. About 5000 hours for powertubes. That is about 5 years. Autobias lets you easily swap tubes for tuberolling. But fixed bias gives stronger low-end as they say. Electro Harmonix KT-88 are told to be the best. Even better then the 6550.

Considering speakers you could also think of Epos Epic-5, very musical. I would not go for a subwoofer (not as tight with a tube-amp)

Good luck!

.
 

mattmeer

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Hi again,

still researching on tube amps.

Is it true that a 50w valve amp would use around 200watts once plugged in? Is it always drawing this high amount of energy, even when the volume is turned all the way down or is there some "standby" mode, where the amp is actually still on but doesn't draw power?
 
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mattmeer said:
Hi again,

still researching on tube amps.

Is it true that a 50w valve amp would use around 200watts once plugged in? Is it always drawing this high amount of energy, even when the volume is turned all the way down or is there some "standby" mode, where the amp is actually still on but doesn't draw power?

You would benefit from this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Building-Valve-Amplifiers-Morgan-Jones/dp/0750656956

as it will answer all your questions and more! Extremely well written and comprehensive.
 

Rethep

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To answer your question instead of the book. So called "Single ended" tube-amps use a lot of energy. But mostly they are low-powered 10 W or so, and then used with efficient speakers. In that case the powerconsumption is also rather "low".

But most people use "Pushpull" tube-amps or "Ultralinear" which use less energy. I did not hear a Single-ended yet but are satisfied with mine.

Do not think you need a lot of power in general. Only when you listen very loud. A tube-amp gives you "insight", which could excite you more than volume!

Further i would like to say to you: go and listen a lot to different systems. The answer is in hearing what you like best.
 
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Anonymous

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Rethep said:
Do not think you need a lot of power in general. Only when you listen very loud.

While I agree with this for most people, his room may be the size of Wembley Stadium!. Without any information about room or speakers no one can recommend anything. As this information appears to be confidential the OP has to do his own research ;)
 

mattmeer

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Hello. Thanks for the suggestion.

The reason I am asking about power, is because the amp will be on 3-4 hours a day, at low volume (background music). And 1 hour on "critical listening volume". If the amp would use it's maximum amount of energy drawn from the wall socket even while on low volumes (like Class A amplifiers) then it would get tricky and the tubes would get very hot with 3 hours of use everyday, which makes me doubt the reliability in that case. So what you are saying is that with pushpull or ultralineair tube amps the amount of power drawn decreases when the volume gets lowered. That's good.

I have read a review about Cayin's A88T tube amp and appearantly when its plugged in (no matter what volume) it uses a constant 280 watts... that's even higher than a 50W class A amplifier. My point is, I like the tube's characteristic of being able to display subtle changes in volume in a very fluid and natural way, this would also be very handy for low volume listening (background music), but I wouldn't want an amplifier drawing 200+watts while quietly playing on the background! But you confirm this is not the case...
 
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Anonymous

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While it may appear clever to withold both the size of your listening room and the make and model of the speakers;- it does render most discussions of tube amps rather pointless.

In fact it makes discussion of any amps rather moot.

In the absence of that information I recommend a pair of 500W push pull amps, I'm sure they will cater for all situations.
 

mattmeer

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I am not asking for an opinion about the required power output...

I am simply asking about the power consumption of the things when on low volume.
 

Sabby

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Globs said:
Rethep said:
Do not think you need a lot of power in general. Only when you listen very loud.

While I agree with this for most people, his room may be the size of Wembley Stadium!. Without any information about room or speakers no one can recommend anything. As this information appears to be confidential the OP has to do his own research ;)

The OP didn't mention room size but did mention speakers.

"I have Wharfedale 10.1 speakers"
 
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Anonymous

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Well spotted Sabby, your reading is better than mine!!

Wharfedale 10.1, ok, that's one basis point - we can deduce something from that :)
 

tino

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Thought I would resurrect / hijack this thread :shifty: and ask if anyone else out there has tried mixing and matching to create a hybrid amp. After reading lots of enthusiastic support for the "valve" sound, I am thinking of tinkering with a small and cheap (ready very cheap!) preamp + solid state power amp combination. The idea would be to use my existing Linn LK85 but have it fed by a valve pre-amp or audio buffer. Is there anything out there (preferably made in the UK) that might fit the bill. T'internet searching has dredged up the Icon Audio Musical Box and Croft Micro pre-amp, but ideally I would like something cheaper (and width < 330mm) as this is just an experiment for now. If needs be I can make my own, but wouldn't know which circuit designs or valves are to be recommended. Any ideas, or am I wasting my time?
 

CJSF

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Keep seeing the word 'cheap' . . . how cheap? I have recently purchased the 'Croft CI-P' . . . thats an integrated valve pre and 50w mosfet output, £950.00 . . . a bargain in my humble opinion, hand made in the UK, uses no PC boards, all components hard wired, minimalist approach. Glen Croft has been making valve amplifiers for donkeys years, he knows his stuff.

CJS
 

Rethep

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mattmeer said:
I have read a review about Cayin's A88T tube amp and appearantly when its plugged in (no matter what volume) it uses a constant 280 watts... that's even higher than a 50W class A amplifier.

Where have you read this ? I don't know of any Cayin-amp doing that. They are all "push-pull" or "ultra-lineair", or at least switchable from "triode-mode" which is even not "single ended", so does not use more energy!

A tube-amp of 40 W will be enough, i think. It will not distort when played to loud, but softly decreases dynamics instead.

Mine has strong bass but not as strong as a transistor-amp. A more expensive (and heavier!) Cayin-amp will sound stronger in the bass, but not consume more power.

All tube is most pure! So no room for hybrids is my opinion.

Good luck!
 

tino

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CJSF said:
Keep seeing the word 'cheap' . . . how cheap? I have recently purchased the 'Croft CI-P' . . . thats an integrated valve pre and 50w mosfet output, £950.00 . . . a bargain in my humble opinion, hand made in the UK, uses no PC boards, all components hard wired, minimalist approach. Glen Croft has been making valve amplifiers for donkeys years, he knows his stuff.

CJS

Cheap as chips ;) ... but realistically less than £200. I actually I came across this little gem ... the Carot One Ernestolo. It even has a physically separate 6W solid state amp section if I want to use it standalone at some point.
 

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