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BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW

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expat_mike said:
BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW said:
I have seen it, and I'm sure I liked it, but I'm struggling to remember much about it.

I am surprised that your wife would let you watch a film with Korean in the title. :)

She watches Korean dramas on her computer, she watches Korean films, she goes to Korean restaurants, and eats Korean food, but she doesn't want me to buy a Samsung tv.

Can you work out her policy, 'cos I can't. :?
 

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strapped for cash said:
BenLaw said:
I'm in the middle of Sunrise, which is brilliant so far, but is rather different in tone and style from Nosferatui and Faust!

Sunrise is really quite charming (and the BD is excellent). Given the list of films you plan to watch, you're perhaps not looking for further suggestions. Nevertheless, a triple bill of Sunrise, City Girl, and Days of Heaven is highly recommended!

Unfortunately I only have the DVD of Sunrise, although the quality is still excellent, as is the case with all Eureka release I've seen. I realised recently I own quite a lot of silent films I haven't watched, so am trying to rectify the situation. Further suggestions are always welcomed, as long as the suggester has no expectation they'll be watched quickly! I already had Days of Heaven on my list but have added City Girl.
 

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BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW said:
BenLaw said:
That's interesting background, thanks BBB. As I said, I anticipated there was probably a basis in reality for many / all of the themes but I'd still argue it's fairly far removed from reality, in particular the opening scene, the lactation and the bath scene. The drug use seemed the closest to reality.

Anyway, what were your thoughts on it? What did you make of the stranger in the leather trousers? What did you think the point was of much of the action being filmed?

I'm going to have to reacquaint myself with the film Ben.

Well I'd be interested for you to do that and to hear what you think.

BenLaw said:
I watched the Korean Breathless yesterday - what a film! Best thing I've seen in ages.

I have seen it, and I'm sure I liked it, but I'm struggling to remember much about it.

I have the memory of goldfish Ben. :)

Sorry for any confusion I've caused to possibly you and certainly Mike. Trouble with inability to italicise when on an iPhone. The film of course is called simply Breathless. I recall you mentioning this Korean film when strapped and I were discussing the French Breathless (aka A Bout de Souffle). This film has a debt collector as the central figure and is a study on the impact of domestic violence being suffered and witnessed by a number of characters and how it goes on to affect their attitudes and relationships. At times very funny, at times very sad. Lots of great deadpan profanity.
 

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BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW said:
expat_mike said:
BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW said:
I have seen it, and I'm sure I liked it, but I'm struggling to remember much about it.

I am surprised that your wife would let you watch a film with Korean in the title. :)

She watches Korean dramas on her computer, she watches Korean films, she goes to Korean restaurants, and eats Korean food, but she doesn't want me to buy a Samsung tv.

Tell me how to get 'Sopyonje' please. I've only ever seen the last hour of it on TV and the complete film on YouTube in iffy quality. (It's been removed now.)

A gorgeous (but sad) film that I really want to own.
 

BenLaw

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BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW said:
expat_mike said:
BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW said:
I have seen it, and I'm sure I liked it, but I'm struggling to remember much about it.

I am surprised that your wife would let you watch a film with Korean in the title. :)

She watches Korean dramas on her computer, she watches Korean films, she goes to Korean restaurants, and eats Korean food, but she doesn't want me to buy a Samsung tv.

Can you work out her policy, 'cos I can't. :?

I guess films and food, you consume them and then they're gone, whereas a TV sits in front of you and silently whispers 'Korea' at you every day for years. Possibly.
 

BenLaw

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chebby said:
BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW said:
expat_mike said:
BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW said:
I have seen it, and I'm sure I liked it, but I'm struggling to remember much about it.

I am surprised that your wife would let you watch a film with Korean in the title. :)

She watches Korean dramas on her computer, she watches Korean films, she goes to Korean restaurants, and eats Korean food, but she doesn't want me to buy a Samsung tv.

Tell me how to get 'Sopyonje' please. I've only ever seen the last hour of it on TV and the complete film on YouTube in iffy quality. (It's been removed now.)

A gorgeous (but sad) film that I really want to own.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SOPYONJE-DVD-IM-KWON-TAEK-New-Sealed-/370774846383

But I think your player would need to be multiregion.
 

BenLaw

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strapped for cash said:
Out of interest, Ben, since you've discussed moments you disliked in films due to their lack of realism, would you describe yourself principally as a fan of "realist" cinema? (This term is itself quite loose, since there are different approaches to cinematic realism; for instance, post-war Italian realist films are stylistically different from what's often termed "classical Hollywood illusory realism.")

How does this sit with your enjoyment of heavily stylised early twentieth century cinema, expressionism in particular, as you're clearly (and rightly!) fond of several expressionist films?

Sorry if those questions seem confrontational. That's not my intention. I'm fascinated by issues of taste and points of disconnect when watching films.

No, not confrontational at all, merely an enquiry.

Given that I wasn't really aware of the concept of 'realist' cinema until fairly recently, then it would be difficult for me to answer yes. As you say, my liking for some early expressionist films would be inconsistent with that, as I'm guessing would be my liking for a lot of horror and children's films.

I'm struggling to give you much better of an answer as I don't have as ready a grasp of what 'realism' encompasses as you obviously do. Trying to set out a cohesive anaylsis of my tastes leaves me open to critique where I struggle with the nomenclature. Nonetheless, I suspect your thought that I may principally be a fan of realist cinema may be a product of the (I now recognise somewhat limited) way in which I try to interpret films. The best word I can come up with is probably 'literalist': I ask myself whether I am convinced that a character would say or behave in the manner portrayed and I find my suspension of disbelief is interrupted if I'm answering in the negative. I do try only to ask that question within the rules and style of the film itself, but some posts on this thread have taught me I probably oughtn't to be asking the question at all, or at least that asking it is only one route of possible interpretations of a film. Still, when you're no longer young it's difficult to retrain yourself in ways of consuming culture.

I think the upshot of that is that I struggle with some genres that are heavily 'stylised' as I find this can tip into 'stilted'. (Although Sunset Boulevard for me is a great example of a heavily stylised film but one where I'm quite content that all the characters are behaving as they should within the rules and style of the film.) I also struggle to analyse the more surreal aspects of films, although this doesn't necessarily leave me feeling cold, just a little perplexed. Holy Motors would be a good example of that. I'm also very out of practice in analysing symbolism and metaphor (not since A-Level English Lit), which I know from my sister's academic career is the sort of thing that becomes second nature when you're in practice. Hence my struggles with Mulholland Drive.
 
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BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW

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BenLaw said:
Sorry for any confusion I've caused to possibly you and certainly Mike. Trouble with inability to italicise when on an iPhone. The film of course is called simply Breathless. I recall you mentioning this Korean film when strapped and I were discussing the French Breathless (aka A Bout de Souffle). This film has a debt collector as the central figure and is a study on the impact of domestic violence being suffered and witnessed by a number of characters and how it goes on to affect their attitudes and relationships. At times very funny, at times very sad. Lots of great deadpan profanity.

No confusion here Ben, I have seen the film, but it's remembering the detail that I find a real struggle.

I do remember the opening scene. A man is arguing with his wife/girlfriend, and he's being physically and verbally abusive to her, the main character then walks over casually, and batters the man. It's after that that I'm struggling. :)

It was a good film though, because I remember clearly when I dislike films, it's the ones I like that I have trouble recollecting.
 
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BenLaw said:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SOPYONJE-DVD-IM-KWON-TAEK-New-Sealed-/370774846383

But I think your player would need to be multiregion.

Easily done with the Sonys.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sony-DVD-Blu-ray-player-multi-region-hack-remote-/110665303085?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_Video_DVDPlayers_Recorders&hash=item19c42a842d
 

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BenLaw said:
I'm struggling to give you much better of an answer as I don't have as ready a grasp of what 'realism' encompasses as you obviously do.

Generally speaking, "realism" encompasses a range of styles that seek to represent the "real world." There is no single realist aesthetic, though certain techniques are often described as realist.

As you of course know, in post-war Italy, filmmakers such as De Sica, Rossellini, and Visconti consciously used long takes (or minimal editing), location shooting, natural lighting, non-actors, and focused on ordinary or working class characters, with a view toward social critique.

Many of these techniques were replicated in 1950s and '60s British "kitchen sink" dramas, and in very recent European films such as 4 Months, 3 Weeks and 2 Days, to name a few examples. Each of these examples is highly politicised, and therefore far removed from the objective mode of filmmaking the term "realism" implies.

At the same time, classical Hollywood cinema (or films made during the studio era) had a different realist aesthetic, often described as "classical illusory realism." Here, the objective was to disguise filmmaking's artifice through continuity editing. (The continuity system was more than this, but the goal was nevertheless to create an illusion of reality, or verisimilitude.)

I guess what pulls these "styles" together is the idea that we would recognise the resulting films as representations of the world we inhabit.

Conversely, "formalist" filmmaking is typically more concerned with abstraction and subjectivity. This "realist-formalist" distinction is still pretty crude, not least because we can point to many films that blend realist and formalist styles, but it'll do in terms of broad definition.

BenLaw said:
Trying to set out a cohesive anaylsis of my tastes leaves me open to critique where I struggle with the nomenclature. Nonetheless, I suspect your thought that I may principally be a fan of realist cinema may be a product of the (I now recognise somewhat limited) way in which I try to interpret films.

For what it's worth, I'm not looking to critique anyone's interpretations. Nor would I describe your interpretations as "limited." There are many academics with a far more sophisticated understanding of film style and history than myself. Besides, we all view films through the prism of our own experiences and expectations, and who's to say one reading of a film is more valid than another.

BenLaw said:
The best word I can come up with is probably 'literalist': I ask myself whether I am convinced that a character would say or behave in the manner portrayed and I find my suspension of disbelief is interrupted if I'm answering in the negative. I do try only to ask that question within the rules and style of the film itself, but some posts on this thread have taught me I probably oughtn't to be asking the question at all, or at least that asking it is only one route of possible interpretations of a film. Still, when you're no longer young it's difficult to retrain yourself in ways of consuming culture.

I think the upshot of that is that I struggle with some genres that are heavily 'stylised' as I find this can tip into 'stilted'. (Although Sunset Boulevard for me is a great example of a heavily stylised film but one where I'm quite content that all the characters are behaving as they should within the rules and style of the film.) I also struggle to analyse the more surreal aspects of films, although this doesn't necessarily leave me feeling cold, just a little perplexed. Holy Motors would be a good example of that. I'm also very out of practice in analysing symbolism and metaphor (not since A-Level English Lit), which I know from my sister's academic career is the sort of thing that becomes second nature when you're in practice. Hence my struggles with Mulholland Drive.

I think you're insisting on psychological plausibility (which answers my original question). An insistence on psychological realism doesn't mean you automatically have a preference for "realist" filmmaking. In fact, abstract or formalist techniques can add character depth.

Expressionism, by definition, is about the representation of character psychology, while surrealism is about the unconscious. Both approaches seek to bring character psychology to the fore. In this sense, we can perhaps gain more intimate (albeit subjective) perspectives on character that may not be possible through an exclusively "realist" approach.*

For me, the more conscious I became of realist "styles" (and realism certainly involves stylistic choices), the more interested I became in other filmmaking techniques. Another way of putting this is to observe that, since all films are constructions and no film is "real," abstract methods are no less valid than realist techniques.

To go further, abstract or formalist approaches may represent a purer form of cinematic language than some realist techniques, since they call attention to (rather than seek to disguise) filmmaking's artifice. (This is quite a contentious statement. I'm sure many people would disagree with me on this point.)

* A nice way of looking at this, I think, is to acknowledge that we learn so much more about Diane from her dream than we would from a realist representation of her story. Diane becomes more sympathetic. Though we in no way condone her actions, we gain a far better understanding of her traumatic past, deeply troubled psyche, and motivations through Mulholland Drive's surrealist narrative.
 

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strapped for cash said:
BenLaw said:
I know from my sister's academic career is the sort of thing that becomes second nature when you're in practice.

I meant to ask, what subject does your sister teach?

Ah, she's moved away from academia now, although she is working for a university. She got a first in English Lit from Pembroke college, Oxford. Her husband did a science-based PhD in Bristol.
 

BenLaw

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I'm not sure I have a lot to add to your last main post. One query though. Isn't one of the logical conclusions of your penultimate paragraph that animated films are always a 'purer' form of cinema than other films, and would you indeed argue that?
 

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BenLaw said:
Isn't one of the logical conclusions of your penultimate paragraph that animated films are always a 'purer' form of cinema than other films, and would you indeed argue that?

I honestly don't know. Obviously animated films vary greatly in terms of style, due to cultural context, technological developments, and so on...

I guess you're observing that animated films are distanced from "reality" because there's no principal photography involved. However, even this view can be complicated. Texture mapping, for instance, often draws on photography. Motion capture, both in "live action" films with CGI characters, and in films that are entirely animated, also have elements that derive from the real world.

I don't think we can clearly separate animation and live action. Avatar, to cite one example, is predominantly animated, yet is often regarded as a live action film. The lines between the two have arguably always been somewhat blurred, and seem increasingly so as time passes.

I'm not even sure I agree with my penultimate paragraph.

I was thinking back to early film movements that accentuated style as forms of visual expression, and in many regards became cornerstones of cinematic language. Many of these stylistic approaches remain hugely influential, even if they're mixed or diluted* in other cultural contexts. (I recall you pointing out that Sunrise is distinct stylistically from Nosferatu and Faust.)

* I chose these words carefully, since they relate to a sense of purity of style or intent. Nevertheless, one might regard a desire for non-mediation in realist filmmaking as equally pure of purpose. My penultimate paragraph was always highly contentious.
 
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BenLaw said:
I watched Delicatessen today, which I believe means discussion can commence. For now, I'll just say I thought it was a superb film.

IMHO, it's not only one of the best foreign language films ever made, it's one of the best films ever made. I love it.
 

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expat_mike said:
I see The Trial is on YouTube as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUDLy3ablus

I've watched The Trial on YouTube, and found it fairly confusing, as to what point the film was trying to make. The picture quality wasn't as good as DVD quality, but I'm glad it saved me buying such a confusing film.

I notice that there is also a 90 minute documentary by Orson Wells, about the making of The Trial. I think that I might have to watch this, to help my understanding of the film.
 

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BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW said:
BenLaw said:
I watched Delicatessen today, which I believe means discussion can commence. For now, I'll just say I thought it was a superb film.

IMHO, it's not only one of the best foreign language films ever made, it's one of the best films ever made. I love it.

That's praise indeed, given the large number of foreign language films that you must have watched.
 
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expat_mike said:
BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW said:
BenLaw said:
I watched Delicatessen today, which I believe means discussion can commence. For now, I'll just say I thought it was a superb film.

IMHO, it's not only one of the best foreign language films ever made, it's one of the best films ever made. I love it.

That's praise indeed, given the large number of foreign language films that you must have watched.

You have watched it haven't you Mike? Any opinions?
 

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BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW said:
You have watched it haven't you Mike? Any opinions?

I found it filmed in a very claustraphobic (and atmospheric) style - in fact I was reminded of this when watching The Trial today.

I felt that the film would have benefitted from an initial voiceover, explaining the initial context, post-apocalypse etc.

I had been warned that the first few minutes were strange, but I was not expecting the man disguising himself as rubbish, trying to escape via the bin - still it set the tone for the rest of the film.

Overall the film had it's moments of humour, but I don't think that I would rate it as one of the best films ever made.

I know that to a certain extent, one had to suspend belief in reality, to accept some of the semi-grotesque characters - but I think elements of the rebel underground were just too unbelievable. In particular, why inhabit an environment that was continually running with dripping water. It would have been uninhabitable - I think that if the dripping water had been left out, you would then have had a believable environment for the credible underground rebels.

I am assuming that I shall see another very claustraphobic (and atmospheric) style of film, when I watch V for Vendetta.

Maybe I need to watch a more light hearted film like Visitor Q first. :rofl:
 

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I thought I had seen Delicatessen many years ago. I seem to remember people dressed as people were a few hundred years ago, and sat in a huge hall surrounded by vast amounts of food, including whole roast pigs etc, and eating very sloppily. I found out I hadn't seen it before...

Loved the opening of the film - dark, dank, misty. Maybe the compressed, standard definition of the version I watched added to it, but after that opening, I was tempted to turn it off and order the Bluray!
 

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David@FrankHarvey said:
I thought I had seen Delicatessen many years ago. I seem to remember people dressed as people were a few hundred years ago, and sat in a huge hall surrounded by vast amounts of food, including whole roast pigs etc, and eating very sloppily.

Were you perhaps thinking of The Cook, the Thief, His Wife & Her Lover?
 
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