The ultimate shoot out?

[ellisdj]

Thats exactly it - I thought it was an error with his screen until I blocked the light at the back.

I had never seen that before was an interesting one at first.

Whats more interesting when you place the metre on the screen to do the calibrationon the VT you can clearly see the gap between the glass and the screen.

The first time I pushed the metre thinking that should be a bit closer - its not like that on the ZT and thats why its a bit cleaner the image - the edges of things and the movement is a bit sharper than the 65VT - that could also be due to the size.

In the dark room this apparently becomes less evident and the gap is closed.

I dont remember there being the same gap on LX5090 I had but I wasnt looking for it at the time - sure it was there though

 

[BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pioneer-KURO-60inch-ELITE-SIGNATURE-PRO-141FD-MORE-THAN-KRP-600M-FULL-HD-/221443883219?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_Video_Televisions&hash=item338f1580d3

I'm guessing this is a great tv, anyone know anything about it?

 

[bigboss]

This is the US version of KRP-600M (just the TV monitor without tuner). I'm not sure what he means by "more than KRP-600M".

 

[BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW]

I'm not interested in buying it, but just wondered what it was. Thanks for the info BB.

I still regret selling my Kuro. :boohoo:

 

[ellisdj]

Yeah I dont think its wise to sell the Kuro to go like for like i.e 50" for 50".

It still gives calibrated a near perfect flat gamma reference image at 2.2 gamma with outstanding black levels - thats what I got out of mine from the cinema mode.

I was suggested to try and calibrate to 2.4 gamma on cinema mode the gamma controls didnt allow for this, maybe normal mode would - or reducing the brightness to achieve it, although I feel that will be very highely counterproductive. However HD TV Test suggested the cinema mode had the best gamma tracking so that is what I used.

 

[tele1962]

I read vincents comments on bt1886 on a webpage where a lot of calibrators were asked about it.

Without sounding offensive i think he has done something wrong. Unless he runs contrast really high and that alters things cant see it as its the 0ire measurement that affects the curve.

My bt 1886 is mostly 2.4 gamma except roughly 30ire and down where it rises a bit to stop black crush.

This rise in gamma you control with the black level in the.software.

Power at 2.4gamma crushes detail.

I had forgot 1 other major flaw.the kuro didnt have thats grey vertical bars noticeable in very white scenes - thats.another major flaw against the VT.

I know the krp was better - better blacks better controls 10 point white balance, also by getting some noisey elements outside the box may have given a cleaner image than the 5090 Makes sense to me with what i know now.

I

I think the jury is still out on this one:

http://referencehometheater.com/2014/commentary/gamma-correct/

 

[Series1boy]

Vincent calibrated my VT to 2.2 bright room and 2.4 dark room. Not sure about the BT.1886 as I don't fully understand it... I will email him and ask what he did.

 

[emperor's new clothes]

Agree BB. Best Buy used to stock the Elite in the states and I could see no difference to the European or Asian models. fWIIW, for some reason I get the best results using Standard for Sky Hd feed- direct, no pass through. No calibration. Saw the samsung 8500 in JL today. 4k demo feed superb. Of air footy still LED artefacts but getting close!

 

[theflyingwasp]

Vincent calibrated my VT to 2.2 bright room and 2.4 dark room. Not sure about the BT.1886 as I don't fully understand it... I will email him and ask what he did.

hey series1boy

i received my calibration report from Steve withers when I got the ZT calibrated last June and my gamma on the ZT is 2.36 for ISF night settings,I'm pretty much blackout conditions most of the time.

contrast 95

brightness 7

colour 50

tint 0

sharpness 50

colour temperature -warm

are these settings anything like yours? He also calibrated it for daytime but I never use it

i don't understand that BT1886 thing either.

 

[Deleted member 2457]

Vincent calibrated my VT to 2.2 bright room and 2.4 dark room. Not sure about the BT.1886 as I don't fully understand it... I will email him and ask what he did.

hey series1boy

i received my calibration report from Steve withers when I got the ZT calibrated last June and my gamma on the ZT is 2.36 for ISF night settings,I'm pretty much blackout conditions most of the time.

contrast 95

brightness 7

colour 50

tint 0

sharpness 50

colour temperature -warm

are these settings anything like yours? He also calibrated it for daytime but I never use it

i don't understand that BT1886 thing either.

My night setting are:

Contrast 69
Brightness plus 8
Colour 50
Tint 0
Sharpness 0
Colour temperature warm

I just keep to these settings too.

 

[Series1boy]

Vincent calibrated my VT to 2.2 bright room and 2.4 dark room. Not sure about the BT.1886 as I don't fully understand it... I will email him and ask what he did.

hey series1boy

i received my calibration report from Steve withers when I got the ZT calibrated last June and my gamma on the ZT is 2.36 for ISF night settings,I'm pretty much blackout conditions most of the time.

contrast 95

brightness 7

colour 50

tint 0

sharpness 50

colour temperature -warm

are these settings anything like yours? He also calibrated it for daytime but I never use it

i don't understand that BT1886 thing either.

My night setting are: Contrast 69 Brightness plus 8 Colour 50 Tint 0 Sharpness 0 Colour temperature warm I just keep to these settings too.

Just had another look at my report from Vincent and the night mode is at.2.37 gamma with the following settings:

Contrast: 77 Brightness: +7
Colour: 50

Tint: 0
Sharpness: 0
Colour Temperature: Warm

just goes to show that all our TVs are different when calibrated in dark conditions

 

[Deleted member 2457]

Vincent calibrated my VT to 2.2 bright room and 2.4 dark room. Not sure about the BT.1886 as I don't fully understand it... I will email him and ask what he did.

hey series1boy

i received my calibration report from Steve withers when I got the ZT calibrated last June and my gamma on the ZT is 2.36 for ISF night settings,I'm pretty much blackout conditions most of the time.

contrast 95

brightness 7

colour 50

tint 0

sharpness 50

colour temperature -warm

are these settings anything like yours? He also calibrated it for daytime but I never use it

i don't understand that BT1886 thing either.

My night setting are: Contrast 69 Brightness plus 8 Colour 50 Tint 0 Sharpness 0 Colour temperature warm I just keep to these settings too.

Just had another look at my report from Vincent and the night mode is at.2.37 gamma with the following settings:

Contrast: 77 Brightness: +7
Colour: 50

Tint: 0
Sharpness: 0
Colour Temperature: Warm

just goes to show that all our TVs are different when calibrated in dark conditions

Ours are pretty similar. :cheers:

 

[theflyingwasp]

Wonder why the big contrast diffrence gel?

 

[Deleted member 2457]

Wonder why the big contrast diffrence gel?

Light of the room? On day it's 83 mine. Day just looks wrong now!

 

[Series1boy]

Wonder why the big contrast diffrence gel?

Light of the room? On day it's 83 mine. Day just looks wrong now!

my day is 79....

 

[theflyingwasp]

My day contrast is 90 with brightness at 4

 

[rocketrazor]

Aren't the contrast levels high and won't they increase the risk of image retention or worse, screen burn?

 

[Deleted member 2457]

Aren't the contrast levels high and won't they increase the risk of image retention or worse, screen burn?

I haven't noticed anything, when I compare to the normal settings it isn't as bright though, so should be okay. I got screen burn on both a Pioneer 5090 and the Panasonic GT50 and that was on normal settings, so I hoping these settings will work better!

 

[ellisdj]

Wasp that is high contrast mate, probs target 35ftl with that low brightness that much contrast needed. I thought abl kicked in long before that my readings stopped getting higher on mid panel luminance at about 75 from memory. Maybe bit higher

Also brightness depends - mine is +8 and my Dads ZT is +6i think or maybe +7 otherwise blacks are crushed i have found.

Maybe thats right for yours, it seems similar to how i first calibrated mine from new - going +8 with the brightness seemed crazy when my 5090 was on 0.

I think most calibrators set to a higher ftl than me - however personally I find 30ftl enough.

On.BT 1886 the jury is not out for me - once you have seen detail in the shadows and not solid black you know thats what your supposed to see. The image maybe slightly lighter but that doesnt make it bad i dont think. Dont forget i was the first advocate on this forum for 2.4 gamma - reading above none of you.use daytime settings just night which is close to that or 2.4

 

[bigboss]

As Vincent Teoh says in that link:

"Of course, 2.4 gamma does make shadow detail a bit less obvious, hence the targeting of 2.1-2.2 at low IREs on a capable display."

“I’m very used to the high image contrast appearance with plenty of pop and depth granted by 2.4 gamma. I’ve tried BT.1886 on the Panasonic ZT/ VT and several other LED LCDs with deep black levels (Samsung F9000, Sony W9), and found even those images a bit flat (to me), since on those displays gamma tops out at around 2.3 to 2.35 according to the BT.1886 formula which takes into account black level. I prefer to align the midtones and above to 2.4, and low-end to 2.1-2.2.”

 

[ellisdj]

This is where i think something is wrong

In calman which now uses bt1886 as standard you measure 0ire black and 100% white

That gave me 2.4 all the way to about 30 ire where it drops only a small amount.

So basically its 2.4 gamma image for the most part except for the darkest shades which are lighter to prevent loss of detail

Sounds perfect to me

Maybe there are slight technical imperfections in my method but its working for me. The imperfection being my metre doesnt measure 0ire as its too dark for it to.read it.

The i1 display pro 3 is supposed to measure to 0.003 cdm2 i think. I used the reviewed black level then convert it for calman and enter it manually.

Vincent preferred method in the post above is a version of 1886 with a curved gamma target

 

[ellisdj]

This is what I used to set the BT1886 on my calibration. As you can hopefully see its the majority 2.4 gamma rising at 40 ire (its lower on the graph but thats actually rising in gamma

 

[ellisdj]

worse quality but bigger

 

[Deleted member 2457]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pioneer-KURO-60inch-ELITE-SIGNATURE-PRO-141FD-MORE-THAN-KRP-600M-FULL-HD-/221443883219?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_Video_Televisions&hash=item338f1580d3

I'm guessing this is a great tv, anyone know anything about it?

Got your old TV here, BBB:

http://www.avforums.com/threads/pioneer-kuro-50-plasma-hd-tv.1884132/

 

[Vincent_Teoh]

Hey guys

Interesting discussion. I probably best chime in since it's my quote being discussed.

ellisdj, your CalMAN screenshot just proved my point... you're actually not getting 2.4 gamma at the top end. Because there wasn't any finer marker, I opened it in Photoshop, and measured the distance from gamma 2 to 2.5, and also the distance from 2 to your gamma curve at 90% video signal. Here are the results:

Proportion of your gamma curve within the 2 to 2.5 region = 2.17 divided by 3.02 = 72%

Gamma value within the 2 to 2.5 region = 72% * 0.5 = 0.36

Therefore, your top-end gamma is 2 + 0.36 = 2.36, instead of 2.4

To make things easier, here's a BT.1886 calculator in Excel format. I didn't write it, I'm just hosting it:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/tools/BT1886-Calculator.xls

(Mods, if where it's hosted is not acceptable, please delete the 1ink and let me know, I'll upload it to a third-party file depository)

Plug in whatever number you want, and you'll find that if your black level is 0.003 cd/m2 (VT/ZT level) or above, the top-end gamma will never be 2.4. This is why I use my method, because I'm so used to that rich 2.4 look.

Warmest regards

Vincent