The sonic beauty of valves...

[Gazzip]

For many, many years I was a solid state junky who dismissed valve amplification as something from the past which had been surpassed by "better" technology. However a few years ago all of that changed when I was lucky enough to hear, and subsequently own, an Audio Research Reference 3 preamplifier. I am not going to bang on about how well or badly it measured because (for me) that is not the point of this hobby. For me it is about how good the music sounds, coloured or not, and valves do something quite magical in this regard that only solid state at the very top of the hi-fi tree can achieve.

The presentation of vocal music and spoken word when rendered by a good valve preamplifier is so different from the presentation of the same by most solid state. There seems to be so much more air around voices, so much more tangibility to the sound. It is not a warmth or a tarnished sound as is so often how valves are misrepresented. It just sounds so real. So right. Off the back of the ARC Reference 3 I upgraded to a Reference 5SE and things got even better. In addition to the beauiful mids and highs, dynamics and bass control were dramatically increased by the 5SE. Its introduction in to my system was as if I had swapped my power amplification for something more meaty at the same time. It really was that good!

About 12 months ago in an attempt to downsize I traded my 5SE and big solid state monoblocks for a Devialet 800, and initially I thought that maybe the solid state world had finally caught up with the sonic attributes that valves can offer. However it did not take long for me to realise that I had made a HUGE mistake in getting rid of my pentode and dual-triode box of magic. It was not that the Devialet didn't sound amazing because it did, it just didn't sound right. Slightly hard and almost hyper real. To me it sounded like electronics. It had to go.

So here I find myself once again immersed in a world of warm, glowing vials pouring audio honey in to my ears, with solid state monoblocks adding the necessary clout and control at the lower end. My latest addition, an Audio Research Reference 6 will be my last addition for a little while, but I am very much back where I want to be with a sound that never gets tiring. If you haven't already tried valves then you really ought to. Who knows you may not get on with the sound, but if you are already hooked in to the hobby and on the journey then not trying them would be like only drinking white wine and never trying red! Go on... You know you want to...

 

[davedotco]

For many, many years I was a solid state junky who dismissed valve amplification as something from the past which had been surpassed by "better" technology. However a few years ago all of that changed when I was lucky enough to hear, and subsequently own, an Audio Research Reference 3 preamplifier. I am not going to bang on about how well or badly it measured because (for me) that is not the point of this hobby. For me it is about how good the music sounds, coloured or not, and valves do something quite magical in this regard that only solid state at the very top of the hi-fi tree can achieve.

The presentation of vocal music and spoken word when rendered by a good valve preamplifier is so different from the presentation of the same by most solid state. There seems to be so much more air around voices, so much more tangibility to the sound. It is not a warmth or a tarnished sound as is so often how valves are misrepresented. It just sounds so real. So right. Off the back of the ARC Reference 3 I upgraded to a Reference 5SE and things got even better. In addition to the beauiful mids and highs, dynamics and bass control were dramatically increased by the 5SE. Its introduction in to my system was as if I had swapped my power amplification for something more meaty at the same time. It really was that good!

About 12 months ago in an attempt to downsize I traded my 5SE and big solid state monoblocks for a Devialet 800, and initially I thought that maybe the solid state world had finally caught up with the sonic attributes that valves can offer. However it did not take long for me to realise that I had made a HUGE mistake in getting rid of my pentode and dual-triode box of magic. It was not that the Devialet didn't sound amazing because it did, it just didn't sound right. Slightly hard and almost hyper real. To me it sounded like electronics. It had to go.

So here I find myself once again immersed in a world of warm, glowing vials pouring audio honey in to my ears, with solid state monoblocks adding the necessary clout and control at the lower end. My latest addition, an Audio Research Reference 6 will be my last addition for a little while, but I am very much back where I want to be with a sound that never gets tiring. If you haven't already tried valves then you really ought to. Who knows you may not get on with the sound, but if you are already hooked in to the hobby and on the journey then not trying them would be like only drinking white wine and never trying red! Go on... You know you want to...

As an old ARC fan I have an idea of how you feel about this. I never owned anything as exotic as the Reference series but I enjoyed my more modest compnents very much.

Strangely ARC pre-amps seem to have more effect on the sound of a system than might be imagined, your experience is not unusual.

Were I to move back to a passive system I would certainly look towards valves though not at your exalted level.

 

[nopiano]

What a nice read. I completely get why you have gone that route. I've been tempted many times, and currently more so by class A transistor products, like Luxman. But don't have the disposable income I once had!

Tempted by a few modern tube devices, as don't think - unless a premium bond comes up - I ever afford ARC! The GSi series appeals though... The PrimaLuna look decent for the money, and there are a few others. In many ways it amazing is valves have stayed the course, but then look at vinyl!

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

I'd love to try a valve amp one day...Although they tend to be hybrids..I do love the look of some of the pathos amps,other than that I wouldn't know where to start.

 

[Al ears]

I'd love to try a valve amp one day...Although they tend to be hybrids..I do love the look of some of the pathos amps,other than that I wouldn't know where to start.

Some of the best user friendly integrated amps are those of Prima Luna. I believe they have already been mentioned. British, but less user friendly are those of Icon Audio.

 

[lindsayt]

I agree Gazzip with everything you said.

The way I'd put is that with a good valve amp it sounds as if the vocalist is there in the room singing their heart out to you, track after track after track.

With the solid state amps there's a bit of a synthetic or robotic quality to vocals.

 

[Kubs]

Interesting read Gazzip. What other components make up your system and how did the speakers react moving from the Dev to AR (assuming you still have the same speakers?

 

[MajorFubar]

Excellent read and write-up Gazzip thank you for taking the time to type and share.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Like you Gazzip, I was deeply impressed with the Devialet sound and still am. By every measure (literally) it trounces my Unison Research S8.

But I just could not bring myself to part with the S8, when really I should have. So what happened was that I ended up with two systems with very different sounding speakers, which I swap around just for the fun of it.

The Devialet makes great music, is hugely entertaining and never gets tiring, but the humble 24 Watts from the S8 have the power to draw you in completely and touch your soul.

 

[Gazzip]

Interesting read Gazzip. What other components make up your system and how did the speakers react moving from the Dev to AR (assuming you still have the same speakers?

Hi Kubs, I am a perennial box swapper but I usually keep my loudspeakers and power within the PMC/Bryston family. My previous valve preamp setup was ARC Ref5SE with Bryston 28BSST2 mono power in to PMC BB5SE speakers with the ARC Ref9 CD and DAC. Network player was a Moon MiND. Then it was the Dev 800 with PMC Fact 12's, and now (via a rather expensive amplification mistake) I am back to ARC Ref6 with Bryston 7B3 mono power in to PMC MB2SE speakers, with a PS Audio DAC.

I haven't listened to theFact 12's with a valve preamp of any kind yet, but I plan to try them in place of the MB2SE's this week...

 

[Gazzip]

Like you Gazzip, I was deeply impressed with the Devialet sound and still am. By every measure (literally) it trounces my Unison Research S8.

But I just could not bring myself to part with the S8, when really I should have. So what happened was that I ended up with two systems with very different sounding speakers, which I swap around just for the fun of it.

The Devialet makes great music, is hugely entertaining and never gets tiring, but the humble 24 Watts from the S8 have the power to draw you in completely and touch your soul.

I have a second system planned for my living room when my kids are a little bigger, and like you that will be something very different. Maybe some ribbon panel speakers or something with a sealed box? Also like you I plan to use the two systems' components interchangeably.

 

[ellisdj]

I dont get why you would do that Gazzip - why would you change bits around in your main system?

That might come across as rude - I dont mean it like that - just asking

 

[Gazzip]

I dont get why you would do that Gazzip - why would you change bits around in your main system?

That might come across as rude - I dont mean it like that - just asking

Why would I swap bits between my primary and secondary system?

 

[bluedroog]

A valve pre-amp is a great introduction, I've owned a Croft 25 for a few years and paired with SS power makes it unfussy of speakers and relatively affordable.

 

[MajorFubar]

If you had for whatever reason an option to use a valve pre or a valve power but not both, which would you feel offers the most benefits in terms of getting the valve sound? (Though maybe this is one of those questions where you could ask a dozen valve enthusiasts and not get a majority answer).

 

[bluedroog]

If you had for whatever reason an option to use a valve pre or a valve power but not both, which would you feel offers the most benefits in terms of getting the valve sound? (Though maybe this is one of those questions where you could ask a dozen valve enthusiasts and not get a majority answer).

You answered your own question! To give you a bit more than that I'd suggest it comes down to cost, a valve power amp is going to cost a lot more and although you could probalby find some cheaply made far eatern examples I suspect they'd stink. I think if it was an exercise in toe dipping a pre would be the way to go. That said I've only ever owned the Croft and have have never switched valve power amps with valve pre-amps and SS, passive etc. I used my Croft with a Quad 909 and loved it.

 

[Infiniteloop]

I dont get why you would do that Gazzip - why would you change bits around in your main system?

That might come across as rude - I dont mean it like that - just asking

Hope you don't mind but I can answer that question from my perspective and that is that I find my ears seem to get used to the sound of a specific system configuration in a particular room. Having two systems (and two different listening rooms) means I can swap kit around which makes a difference to the sound, which I find makes the music I listen to a little more interesting.

 

[MajorFubar]

You answered your own question! To give you a bit more than that I'd suggest it comes down to cost, a valve power amp is going to cost a lot more and although you could probalby find some cheaply made far eatern examples I suspect they'd stink. I think if it was an exercise in toe dipping a pre would be the way to go. That said I've only ever owned the Croft and have have never switched valve power amps with valve pre-amps and SS, passive etc. I used my Croft with a Quad 909 and loved it.

Cheers Bluedroog. For no reason I can properly justify I had always suspected the biggest magic would be at the pre-amp end. But back in the day, every source effectively went through a active pre-amp, because line level was about 400mV, DIN level was half that at best, so both were too small to feed a power amp directly. These days, with digital sources all being about 2V and many pre-amps being little more than passive switchboxes with a volume control, I was wondering if the greater benefit would be power amps.

 

[Infiniteloop]

If you had for whatever reason an option to use a valve pre or a valve power but not both, which would you feel offers the most benefits in terms of getting the valve sound? (Though maybe this is one of those questions where you could ask a dozen valve enthusiasts and not get a majority answer).

You answered your own question! To give you a bit more than that I'd suggest it comes down to cost, a valve power amp is going to cost a lot more and although you could probalby find some cheaply made far eatern examples I suspect they'd stink. I think if it was an exercise in toe dipping a pre would be the way to go. That said I've only ever owned the Croft and have have never switched valve power amps with valve pre-amps and SS, passive etc. I used my Croft with a Quad 909 and loved it.

I've had a few Valve Amps which used KT88 or KT120 power Valves and my current Amp which uses the very slightly scary 845. I have found that the PreAmp Tubes (almost always 12AU7's in my case) give the biggest difference to the sound when Tube Rolling. You can roll Power Valves too, but the effect seems diminished by comparison. However compared to KT88's or KT120's the 845 gives a big, deep, lush and romantic type of sound that is simply gorgeous with Classical music, Jazz, Acoustic and most especially Acapella vocals.

 

[ID.]

Valves are a bit of a gap in my experience. The only system I've heard was the cheapest Luxman valve setup which sounded pretty good with certain music, but too soft for most music I listen to.

Mat some point I may dabble with a valve pre for my actives, but perhaps the products I'm thinking of are too cheap to really give an indication of what valves can do.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Valves are a bit of a gap in my experience. The only system I've heard was the cheapest Luxman valve setup which sounded pretty good with certain music, but too soft for most music I listen to.

Mat some point I may dabble with a valve pre for my actives, but perhaps the products I'm thinking of are too cheap to really give an indication of what valves can do.

Whilst it's true that some Valve Amps could be accused of sounding soft with flabby bass, when you get one that is properly worked out the effect is astonishing.

Albums like REM's 'Automatic for the People' through my S8 is almost a religious experience!

 

[MajorFubar]

REM's 'Automatic for the People' through my S8 is almost a religious experience!

Wow...I haven't played that for far too long. Mental note made to spin it tomorrow night while Mrs Fubar is at Brownies and my kids are 'revising for mocks'*

*seems to be a euphemism for disappearing upstairs and playing on their X Box. Though to be fair to them they're in the top classes for pretty much everything so I should be thankful.

 

[tino]

Whilst it's true that some Valve Amps could be accused of sounding soft with flabby bass, when you get one that is properly worked out the effect is astonishing.

Moreover valve amplifiers are great for low level listening. My fairly low wattage Unison Research sounds much fuller and 'louder' at low volumes than any of my solid state amps.

 

[lindsayt]

If you had for whatever reason an option to use a valve pre or a valve power but not both, which would you feel offers the most benefits in terms of getting the valve sound? (Though maybe this is one of those questions where you could ask a dozen valve enthusiasts and not get a majority answer).

It's all "ifs and buts" and "it depends".

Depends on the source, the speakers, the budget, what particular pre and power amps you're comparing. As well as warm-up time and possibly a few other things such as choice of music and volume.

With pre-amps there's also a possible third choice: neither valve nor solid state. IE a passive pre-amp.

And by the way, if you're listening to a valve amp and it sounds like a valve amp then, chances are there's better amplification you could be using. If you're listening to a valve amp and it sounds like there's nothing between the source and speakers (especially in a comparative demo) then you've got your amplification sorted.

 

[Rethep]

These days, with digital sources all being about 2V and many pre-amps being little more than passive switchboxes with a volume control, I was wondering if the greater benefit would be power amps.

I have a power valve-amp with only one input and a volume pot. So as less 'obstruction' to the sound as possible, but the shortest path between source and speakers. Sounds so beautiful that i'm not looking further for any improvement in sound, but just listen to the music!