The Pursuit of (HD Audio) Happiness with an Apple Set Up

[Overdose]

If HI Res audio was a bit cheaper

It's not really expensive though, is it? We paid £12/£13 for chart CDs 20 years ago, and when premium-selling LPs were about £4.99 in the 70s that'd be about thirty quid now.

and more accesible

With you 200% on that one. I want to buy The Next Day on 24/96 and I find I can't legally do so in the UK. Then in the next breath the BPI is forcing UK ISPs to block the IPs of peer-to-peer sharing sites because illegal downloads are apparently killing the industry. The words 'stuck between', 'rock' and 'hard place' spring to mind.

There is absolutely no good reason that the best quality audio files cannot be made available to those that want it and for that, losslessly compressed CD quality files are all that is needed.

There was an illegal mp3 site that got closed, but had a very good pricing structure whereby you paid in relation to the file size and on a proportional sliding scale. So you could buy they CD image or pay less and less, right down to 128Kbps. The codec choice was expansive too, giving far more options than any other file downloading site than I have seen since.

But of course, when you realise that there is a point at which lack of compression becomes inaudible, say 256 Kbps for arguments sake, there then needs to be a reason created to make people want to spend more on 'better' quality recordings and so the release of high resolution files, in most cases, the self same files that CD masters were made from, but prior to downmixing to 16bit.

So for anyone buying into 'hi-res', it seems that you pay rather more for a lot less, certainly in comparison to a physical CD.

Edit: The initial pricing of CDs when considering the fact they cost less than vinyl to produce, was a disgrace, there was never any justification for the high prices charged back then or indeed now.

 

[MajorFubar]

The qualitative issue, and whether or not the HD format gives us perceptibly better sound or not, is a long, well-trodden path with a dead end at the bottom. The main point is, where a studio has made a HD master available, we should at least have the freedom of choice to buy it. America has. Certainly some countries in Europe have, definitely France and Germany. But oh no, not the UK, not unless you're into classical music on minority specialist labels from Naim and Linn.

 

[Overdose]

I'm not going down that road Overdose because it's a long, well-trodden path with a dead end at the bottom. The main point is, where a studio has made a native HD master available, we should at least have the freedom of choice to buy it. America has. Certainly some countries in Europe have, definitely France and Germany. But oh no, not the UK, not unless you're into classical music on minority specialist labels from Naim and Linn.

Essentially they are available, as the CD release.

When you want to buy orange juice, what do you do? Reach for the 1L carton of pure orange juice (with bits) or go and load up on 15 oranges to squeeze later?

The end result is the same, same taste, same texture, only the 15 oranges take up a lot more room in the larder.

 

[chebby]

When you want to buy orange juice, what do you do? Reach for the 1L carton of pure orange juice (with bits) or go and load up on 15 oranges to squeeze later?

The end result is the same, same taste, same texture, only the 15 oranges take up a lot more room in the larder.

I respect and agree with your views about compressed lossless file quality and I am perfectly happy with 320k AAC and ALAC (when compared to CD and a few Linn downloads I have.)

However your freshly squeezed orange juice analogy is terrible and doesn't serve your argument at all well.

I actually do squeeze a lot of oranges (with this) as well as buy so called 'freshly squeezed' orange juice from bottles. (Waitrose and Marks & Spencer at £2.49 and £2.69 per litre).

The shop bought juice is fine (I recommend the two I listed) but squeezing the oranges yourself is totally different and would pass a blind test with anyone who has functioning tastebuds.

 

[MajorFubar]

When you want to buy orange juice, what do you do? Reach for the 1L carton of pure orange juice (with bits) or go and load up on 15 oranges to squeeze later?
The end result is the same, same taste, same texture, only the 15 oranges take up a lot more room in the larder.

lol as Chebby said that's probably a dubious analogy, but either way, you're going back to the qualitative issue again which is not my argument. My rant is solely and purely about the enforced lack of choice where the HD format of an album is available to legally download in other territories.

To use your analogy, it's about not having the choice to buy fresh oranges just because someone tells you 1L of orange juice (with bits) tastes the same. Whether it does or it doesn't, it's not relevant. It's about having the choice. That is all.

 

[Overdose]

When you want to buy orange juice, what do you do? Reach for the 1L carton of pure orange juice (with bits) or go and load up on 15 oranges to squeeze later?

The end result is the same, same taste, same texture, only the 15 oranges take up a lot more room in the larder.

lol as Chebby said that's probably a dubious analogy, but either way, you're going back to the qualitative issue again which is not my argument. My rant is solely and purely about the enforced lack of choice where the HD format of an album is available to legally download in other territories. To use your analogy, it's about not having the choice to buy fresh oranges just because someone tells you 1L of orange juice (with bits) tastes the same. Whether it does or it doesn't, it's not relevant. It's about having the choice. That is all.

Yes, I get that.

Anyway, the orange analogy is rather accurate as any taste discrepency beteween juices, is down to fruit variety and not the fact that some have been squashed in your home as opposed to squashed in a factory. Given the two options but with the same variety of fruit, the taste outcome will be identical.

 

[Overdose]

When you want to buy orange juice, what do you do? Reach for the 1L carton of pure orange juice (with bits) or go and load up on 15 oranges to squeeze later?

The end result is the same, same taste, same texture, only the 15 oranges take up a lot more room in the larder.

lol as Chebby said that's probably a dubious analogy, but either way, you're going back to the qualitative issue again which is not my argument. My rant is solely and purely about the enforced lack of choice where the HD format of an album is available to legally download in other territories. To use your analogy, it's about not having the choice to buy fresh oranges just because someone tells you 1L of orange juice (with bits) tastes the same. Whether it does or it doesn't, it's not relevant. It's about having the choice. That is all.

Yes, I get that.

Anyway, the orange analogy is rather accurate as any taste discrepency beteween juices, is down to fruit variety and not the fact that some have been squashed in your home as opposed to squashed in a factory. Given the two options but with the same variety of fruit, the taste outcome will be identical.

...and that's my point.

 

[MajorFubar]

Yep, I always got your point.

 

[jcarruthers]

Pretty sure the fresh juice would taste better — won't have oxidised? won't have had preservatives added?

It always tastes a lot different to me anyway.

 

[chebby]

Given the two options but with the same variety of fruit, the taste outcome will be identical.

You certainly seem to know your Apples® but not oranges.

 

[BMFDrums]

Tim

Just to get back on track for a brief moment (I REALLY wouldn't want to sidetrack this amazing fruit-based forum entry for too long!) there is an alternative option that I have been researching, but have not yet implemented myself. It uses a Raspberry Pi and a USB DAC (I believe that the Audiolab can handle USB direct?), with the RaspPi acting as an Airplay device. It could be connected to your network via a wireless router or (better) homeplugs or (best?) a dedicated ethernet connection (if possible). A useful link can be found here:

http://audioplastic.org/blog/2013/01/10/AP1/

As I say, I haven't done this myself. Noting that you want to stick (mostly) with Apple (not Orange!) products and want the ability to play HD audio tracks under the control of your MBP, this may offer a viable solution. I realise that it attracts additional faff, but given the amount that you have invested thus far, it may be a faff worth accepting for what could prove to be a very neat and cost-effective solution. I know that in time I will experiment, but have had other fish to fry recently. Generally speaking, they don't taste great with oranges (or apples), so you might be better sticking with Hi-Fi...

Let us know how you get on

 

[Nimrod79]

Thank you all for your helpful advice and comments. I will digest a lot of what you have suggested over the coming weeks, while uploading the rest of my cd collection to my server!

I think my next step is to buy a 24/96 album from somewhere like HDTracks and have the same album in CD. I will then plug the MBP directly to the MDAC via USB (which supports 24/96) and compare this to the CD playback (16/44). MajorFubar has stated that iTunes can support 24/96 with BitPerfect (which I have just bought) and I can check whether this 24/96 bitrate is possible by viewing the DAC's display. I suppose the next stage is if I can hear the difference. I will report back shortly.

Might I add that this forum is the best I have come across and I am still amazed by the amount of helpful and friendly responses I get to my posts which I am sure you guys have seen a hundred times before.

Cheers,

Tim

 

[Dan Turner]

Hi Tim,

i would suggest you get someone to help you and make it a blind test of HD vs CD to remove any (unconscious) expectation bias.

Dan

 

[Dommer]

Funny how some of you insist that hi-res files do not sound any better than CD quality. Perhaps a speaker upgrade is in order.
There is definitely an improvement to files that are in 24/96 or 24/192. However, the original recording still needs to be good to start with.Also if you have the capabilities to rip Super Audio CDs, you will find, as i have, that DSD audio files sound even better and more like vinyl. But you will need a DSD capable DAC like the new the Chord, TEAC or Benchmark DACs.To begin with, try a free trial of Audirvana and play some HD files (free samples are available from many HD sites) then come back and still tell me that you can't hear an improvement...

 

[Dan Turner]

Funny how some of you insist that hi-res files do not sound any better than CD quality. Perhaps a speaker upgrade is in order.
There is definitely an improvement to files that are in 24/96 or 24/192. However, the original recording still needs to be good to start with.Also if you have the capabilities to rip Super Audio CDs, you will find, as i have, that DSD audio files sound even better and more like vinyl. But you will need a DSD capable DAC like the new the Chord, TEAC or Benchmark DACs.To begin with, try a free trial of Audirvana and play some HD files (free samples are available from many HD sites) then come back and still tell me that you can't hear an improvement...

Fair enough - I've done that and I think that some of the HD recordings I've heard sound better and some don't sound any different from the cd quality equivalent, however I'm convinced by the technical argument for why there is no benefit to higher resolution files and any differences are down to the HD versions being made from different masters. Read this and tell me you're quite so sure.... http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

 

[Craig M.]

You can't make a fair comparison between something from HD Tracks (or other) and a CD. They will be from different masters. The only fair comparison is to downsample the HD track yourself, then you are comparing the bit rate not the master. Personally, I can't detect a difference if I make the comparison this way, whereas it's easy to discern the different mastering on the HD file compared to the CD.

 

[Dommer]

You guys are both correct, I'm not disputing the fact that recording and especially the mastering of music has the biggest effect on the quality. But what I'm saying is that higher resolution files will allow for these great albums to really shine.

A few months ago a mate of mine and I did a blind test with some Floyd and Yes albums in 1bit DSD vs 24/192 PCM. We found that although very difficult to hear at first, eventually we both chose the DSD as the better (more natural, analog sounding) one. After a few hours listening to high-res files we then put on a 16/44.1 album. Boy what a difference... The CD sounded so low-fi. As though life had been taken out of it. I don't know if the mastering was the same on both, probably not, So it's not a fair comparison. However, my point is that any CD we listened to after that just sounded a bit dull. And this was played on my unitiQute+NAP100+KEF R100s, so a budget hi-fi system apart from the Chord DAC that we were testing.

 

[Overdose]

You guys are both correct, I'm not disputing the fact that recording and especially the mastering of music has the biggest effect on the quality. But what I'm saying is that higher resolution files will allow for these great albums to really shine.

A few months ago a mate of mine and I did a blind test with some Floyd and Yes albums in 1bit DSD vs 24/192 PCM. We found that although very difficult to hear at first, eventually we both chose the DSD as the better (more natural, analog sounding) one. After a few hours listening to high-res files we then put on a 16/44.1 album. Boy what a difference... The CD sounded so low-fi. As though life had been taken out of it. I don't know if the mastering was the same on both, probably not, So it's not a fair comparison. However, my point is that any CD we listened to after that just sounded a bit dull. And this was played on my unitiQute+NAP100+KEF R100s, so a budget hi-fi system apart from the Chord DAC that we were testing.

The high res vs CD quality thing has been done to death in other threads, but the differences that you are hearing, if any, are the differences in mastering and not the format, your post even says as much. If wanting to really understand, it is essential to ensure that the mastering on two formats is identical if comparing them to each other.

You can test this yourself by downsampling a 24 bit track to CD quality and use software to test the files back to back, blind test even.

 

[ngibbs]

I'll try to quote again! What does Bit Perfect add to the setup?

It just sits in the background and manages the playing-side of iTunes, more or less invisibly. In the case of HD audio, it switches the bit-rate of your DAC automatically, where iTunes on its own does not. It does other things as well, such as loading the songs into RAM where possible to reduce HDD interaction, and it 'hogs' your DAC so OSX can't muck about with it to play system boings and beeps half way through your Mahler. Best $9.99 I ever spent on my Mac imo. And no I'm not on commission, sadly!

+ 1

 

[stevebrock]

Ngibbs,

Are you hardwiring from you synology NAS into your dac?

I have a MBP where I do all my ripping/editing on iTunes, my itunes library then points to the NAS, so everything appears on the NAS instasntly.

My question is the Synology does not do gapless playback - is there a way round this? Is it a Synology software glitch?

MBP straight into my DAC gapless is not an issue!

Overall stunned with the results on SQ with the NAS > DAC, but thought I would ask you the question as I am bit of a noob to it all!

Thanks

PS if i get BitPerfect surely it will be pointless as my muisc is being played from the NAS not the iTunes folder on my MBP

 

[ngibbs]

Ngibbs,

Are you hardwiring from you synology NAS into your dac?

I have a MBP where I do all my ripping/editing on iTunes, my itunes library then points to the NAS, so everything appears on the NAS instasntly.

My question is the Synology does not do gapless playback - is there a way round this? Is it a Synology software glitch?

MBP straight into my DAC gapless is not an issue!

Overall stunned with the results on SQ with the NAS > DAC, but thought I would ask you the question as I am bit of a noob to it all!

Thanks

PS if i get BitPerfect surely it will be pointless as my muisc is being played from the NAS not the iTunes folder on my MBP

I am hardwiring my NAS into my DAC in one system (study), and using my MacBook to stream in my second second system (living room - perhaps not best illustrared in my sig.). As far as I know, there's no way around the lack of gapless playback in a Synology NAS, which has put a few people off using what is otherwise a very user-friendly way of streaming. I'm hoping that Synology will develop an update to rectify this (if an update is all that it would take). Hoping that they'll get Spotify and Tune-In Radio on there too, which means I can dump my Sonos ZP90 for good. BitPerfect is iTunes only, so not possible when streaming directly from the NAS drive. Brilliant piece of software, as many people have already mentioned, and so reasonably-priced too. Can be occassionaly slow, but makes iTunes sound SO much better.