The DAC scam

[Covenanter]

The opposite of this could be those that can't afford to spend more on their DAC are the disbelievers ... what do you reckon 😉



Have to agree with this, I wouldn't have bought mine unless there was at least a 14 day return period and I wouldn't have kept it if it made no difference as I have lots of other hobbies to spend what's unfortunately becoming, increasingly less spare funds.

My first degree was in Electronics, albeit that was before most people here were born (or even their parents were born 🙂 ). In the 3rd year (1971) I took a module on "Communications Systems" and we studied the "Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem" which is the maths behind digital-analogue conversion. (In essence it says that if you digitally sample any signal at twice the highest frequency in the signal that signal can be perfectly reconstructed from the samples.)

Even with what would now be viewed as stone-age technology you could reconstruct signals very accurately. By accurately I don't mean just by listening but by subtracting the reconstructed signal from the original and looking at any differences on an oscilloscope.

The maths hasn't changed but doubtless with modern technology DAC's are more accurate than they were back then. However, we are talking tiny differences between different modern DACs and, as I said in my OP, I very much doubt people can actually hear them.

Now let's discuss cables!

 

[Al ears]

"Now let's discuss cables!"
I've just switched off...... 🙂

 

[Tessie]

Update video 😛

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbcEgxm6RTU

 

[davidf]

In what way are more expensive DAC better, what are the differences?

Doesn't matter whether I'd have used "more expensive", "more high-end", "better", etc etc, you're still have asked. If you've not heard a top notch DAC, I'd highly recommend you do so.

 

[Gray]

If you could point me to one that's as good as my Chord Qutest for less than £100 please, then I can sell the Qutest and spend the difference on something else.

My Topping E30 nor the DAC in my Arcam SA 30 or in a Wiim Pro Plus came close unfortunately but if you could share your list of ones that do, a lot of people would be very grateful for your advice.

I've never heard a Chord Qutest DAC.

However, I'd be very interested to give it a genuinely blind test against the Khadas Toneboard that I own.

I gladly admit that I would expect the Qutest to be a hell of a lot better based on the price difference (I'd bloody well hope so if I bought one).
But it depends what a listener regards as better - and I wouldn't be prepared to bet a penny on the outcome of an unsighted test done by a panel of (hi-fi and music) enthusiasts.
Again, to be clear, I'd expect them to pick the Chord as the winner.
(Tell them the prices beforehand and I'd guarantee they would 👍).

 

[davidf]

Unfortunately such is the way of the world. Getting to a dealership to listen to stuff isn't as easy as it once was and with the amount of "information" out there these days its pretty obviously many will take the easy route only to be disappointed ultimately.

I do feel that since lockdowns ended, many have just continued to avoid humanity wherever possible. I get it, but if someone was really interested in researching a potential high-end sale, they would make the effort to do so. Now they can buy most things online, they don't need dealers, and "reviewers" is a dirty word - they have their YouTube gurus to put their trust in.

 

[Gray]

Imagine how good a more expensive, well designed DAC could sound!

That's sort of suggesting that my less expensive DAC is not well designed.
Nothing could be further from the truth 👍

 

[davidf]

That's sort of suggesting that my less expensive DAC is not well designed.
Nothing could be further from the truth 👍

Then you've read it differently to how I meant it.

 

[Gray]

Then you've read it differently to how I meant it.

Fair enough.
But if the more expensive DAC is not better designed than my perfectly well designed one, it's just.......more expensive 🤨

 

[davidf]

Fair enough.
But if the more expensive DAC is not better designed than my perfectly well designed one, it's just.......more expensive 🤨

Hence I said, "more expensive, well designed DAC".

 

[Witterings]

Something I'm getting a feeling towards more and more from the naysayers .... they don't seem to have tried or have any real exerience of more expensive DAC's nor done any extensive testing themslves.

There seems to be a lot of quite strong opinion coming from people who have zero experience and are suggesting they have a greater insight and knowledge than people who have actually tried and experienced something.

I'm a sceptic that cables will make any difference but I don't go into or start "cable threads" with a strong opnion telling people that may have tried several different ones and believe there's a difference in sound that they'e comletely wrong when I haven't done any real comparisons myself ..... I'm not fit to judge something I don't have personal experience of.

I'd love to hear from the disbelievers which DAC's you've tested extensively and by that I don't mean a demo in a music shop .... I mean having a home trial for at least 3 days and able to do instant A/B testing for at least 4 / 5 hours.
Pray also share how you volume matched them, how you were able to instantly switch from one to another and what your music source is and how you were able to get it across 2 units at the same time.

In summary though

Khadas Toneboard that I own.

I looked up that DAC, correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like it plugs into a computer to provide an external DAC rather than using your computers onboard one.
I assume you've done that as you perceive it as giving better sound quality than the computers internal DAC which probably cost pence.
If I'm right, kind of suggests you think more expensive DAC's do provide better quality and if so why should the ceiling of improvement be at the £89 it's for sale on Amazon at?

In summary I don't think one side is going to convince the other, especially if one side has experience of something and the opposing side that doesn't is saying they're wrong😕.

In the meantime, following my 2 year crusade to be totally happy with my system, I'll continue to enjoy my recently found musical nirvana and hope everyone else is enjoying theirs as much as I am mine 😀😀.

 

[Jasonovich]

Off the topic slightly. Plugging your DAC to the noisy USB PC/Laptop output is potentially undermining the sound quality, how little, how much is impossible to say without data.
Do Intel motherboards leak more noise than AMD ones or Apple 'emissions' are silent as Tesla! 🙂
My Eversolo DAC has two usb inputs, one cable for PC and other cable to digital transport.
I can say subjectively, the sound from the digital transport is much better.

 

[The_Lecht_Rocks]

not necessarily about the DAC itself, but I was also bit of a naysayer concerning DAC / Streamers and their ability to sound different.
my first real streamer was my EVO150. I was happy for a couple of years but then curiosity got the better of me and I have gone down a rabbit hole !
regardless, my findings are as follows.
my Bluesound Node Icon hookedinto my weeNAIT 50 hasthemost playful and joyous sound I've ever heard. I had a Wiim Ultra into the NAIT originally but it cant compete wishful swing dynamics and simple musical enjoyment. The EXN100 which was approx 7x the price of the WiiM Ultra soundsindistinguishable to the Ultra.
Now, bring a high end DAC into the equation, and I do suspect all of my streamers [Ultra, Icon, EXN100 not EVO150] could have the chsain improved, but I suspect it'd be in presentation rather than "sound quality".
The rabbit hole however is very deep and I am unsure I will go any further [once I swap out my Opticons that is]. !!!!

 

[Stuart.W.D]

My first degree was in Electronics, albeit that was before most people here were born (or even their parents were born 🙂 ). In the 3rd year (1971) I took a module on "Communications Systems" and we studied the "Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem" which is the maths behind digital-analogue conversion. (In essence it says that if you digitally sample any signal at twice the highest frequency in the signal that signal can be perfectly reconstructed from the samples.)

Even with what would now be viewed as stone-age technology you could reconstruct signals very accurately. By accurately I don't mean just by listening but by subtracting the reconstructed signal from the original and looking at any differences on an oscilloscope.

The maths hasn't changed but doubtless with modern technology DAC's are more accurate than they were back then. However, we are talking tiny differences between different modern DACs and, as I said in my OP, I very much doubt people can actually hear them.

Now let's discuss cables!

View: https://youtu.be/WmlP1-S30Fk?si=oYDTxcUrscyj1wRS

😅

 

[Witterings]

my Bluesound Node Icon hookedinto my weeNAIT 50 hasthemost playful and joyous sound I've ever heard.

I'm not looking for them but everywhere I go I keep stumbling across positive comments about the Icon's sound ... I'd love to compare that using it's onboard DAC to my Nano with the Chord Qutest, if it was as good I'd rather the one unit with the extra inputs + sub management.

 

[Jasonovich]

View: https://youtu.be/WmlP1-S30Fk?si=oYDTxcUrscyj1wRS

😅

It matters Stuart, without power cables you have no electricity 🙂

 

[Al ears]

It matters Stuart, without power cables you have no electricity 🙂

you do indeed need a cable to take mains power to equipment. Things are rather quiet without them.....

 

[Jasonovich]

I wonder what Darko would say about DACs?
I think the mere mention of DAC Scam would be lost to him.
😛

View: https://youtu.be/fUiFcU9lpm4?si=RgQ25rHvEz_OhUvi

 

[manicm]

I wonder what Darko would say about DACs?
I think the mere mention of DAC Scam would be lost to him.
😛

View: https://youtu.be/fUiFcU9lpm4?si=RgQ25rHvEz_OhUvi

Especially since he professionally treats his listening rooms, and uses room correction software.

 

[DougK1]

I suspect the differences people claim to hear are in direct proportion to the amount of money they have spent on their DAC. 😉

Maybe yes, maybe no. My last three systems have been Marantz, my previous amp+player was the predecessor of your current 8005 system. Unfortunately, as I bought both my current amp+player at the same time I can't comment on which box had the biggest impact on sound reproduction, but the difference was definitely there with a quick A-B comparison.
Also, unfortunately, and based on RRP, this distinct improvement came at a cost of 4x my previous budget. Was it worth it? I would argue yes, others would say no. As with anything in this mad hifi game it is a case of diminishing returns.
Maybe I shouldn't even get involved in a DAC debate because according to the specs of my player it doesn't have a traditional DAC inside, it had some other kind of wizardry which goes completely over my head 🙂

 

[Jasonovich]

Maybe yes, maybe no. My last three systems have been Marantz, my previous amp+player was the predecessor of your current 8005 system. Unfortunately, as I bought both my current amp+player at the same time I can't comment on which box had the biggest impact on sound reproduction, but the difference was definitely there with a quick A-B comparison.
Also, unfortunately, and based on RRP, this distinct improvement came at a cost of 4x my previous budget. Was it worth it? I would argue yes, others would say no. As with anything in this mad hifi game it is a case of diminishing returns.
Maybe I shouldn't even get involved in a DAC debate because according to the specs of my player it doesn't have a traditional DAC inside, it had some other kind of wizardry which goes completely over my head 🙂

It's likely to have a Field Programmable Gate Array (FPGA) circuitry, like the Chord DAC,
Doesn't have a chipset or a ladder voltage design, it seems your player has it's own bespoke design FPGA 🙂
My media/digital transport player Vovofox is also FPGA (no chipset) and sounds mighty good as a standalone player, so maybe there is something in those FPGA designs.

 

[Revolutions]

Hey. I’ve got a Linn dac. What does one say about that? 🤣🤣🤣

 

[Jasonovich]

Hey. I’ve got a Linn dac. What does one say about that? 🤣🤣🤣

Matt, I think it's FPGA. Their very own in-house design.
Not every DAC is chipsets, you learn something everyday 😊

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[Dave_]

Hey. I’ve got a Linn dac. What does one say about that? 🤣🤣🤣

How much do the charge for a upgraded PSU for it to perform properly because they obviously can't design them properly at the first attempt?

 

[Dave_]

This thread serves as a reminder that audiophiles shouldn't be allowed anywhere near an internet connection without the supervision of an adult/their carer!